Assault Terminators

[Captain Denaro]

I am curently putting together my Assault Termie squad and have 2 lightning claws and 1 TH/SS. My thoughts are to have 2 more LCs and keep the TH as a sort of special weapon marine. However, from reading this site it seems that members tend to favour TH/SS. What do you all suggest as the optimum roster (bearing in mind I already have 2 LCs and 1 TH/SS?

[greatcrusade08]

3 TH/SS and 2 LCs are IMO the optimum build for assault terms

[DarkGuard]

There's already a thread more or less about that very question further down the page. In it are the views of many (including myself) detailing when to take thunder hammers, when to take lightning claws, as well as views and comments about mixing the two weapons, which are more on the second page.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=216433

[Shadowstalker Grim]

If you want an all round squad, 3 TH/SS and 2 LCs as GC08 suggested. Lots of whacking power with anti-infatry support thrown in!

[confused_gordy]

This also depends on which codex you are using, black templars will want more lightning claws, and the mix will be considerably different for death wing units also. If you are using space wolves, or blood angels, it is important to note that TH/SS cost slightly more. However in basic CSM 3/2 is probably the correct mix (although I favor a 10 man unit with 3 LCs)

[Disruptor_fe404]

People like me who use Vulkan run 5 TH/SS to maximize 'free' points from Chapter Tactics. Particularly when you take into account that non-C:SM TH/SS actually cost more than ours. If not running Vulkan I'd go with 3:2 ratio as well, for wound allocation and all-rounder reasons.

[Bartali]

I'll put my hand up for 5xTH/SS again. Marines don't deal with hordes with assault, they deal with them by shooting (that's what all those bolters, flamers and heavy flamers are for).

 

What Marines have a harder time dealing with is elite cc troops or monstrous creatures. This is where TH/SS terminators come in

[Validar]

Trading initiative 4 and a single aditional attack for strength 8 and 3+ invul. save? What you're saying is that I'm getting a more viable unit (str. 8 can, all things equal, deal with much more than lighting claws str 4) AND a much, much more resiliant unit (3+ vs. 5+ - goes without saying!)?

Ofcourse you get an attack less, and you don't strike at ini 4. But they have to do a total of 6 wounds before even one of your guys drop dead.

 

On the paper, stormshields and thunder hammers just seem that much better overall than lightning claws - but it depends on

1) your metagame

2) the rest of your list

 

For the first point you need to consider wether the viability that thunder hammers give you (stormshields are undenyably good) at striking vehicles and monsters is relevant in accordance with what you normally face. If all you're facing is foot slogging marines, the lightning claws will rip their way through those. Consider what you generally face and choose accordingly.

 

And look at the rest of your list. The point is pretty much the same: If you have enough that can deal with vehicles and high toughness creatures in your list and need the terminators to rip appart infantry, the lightning claws will work fantastic for you and it will be worth it to trade the ressilience of the stormshields.

[LardO'Blood]

It depends on your meta game largely. I'll favor a 3/2 mix of TH/SS and LC because I face hordes and MCs regularly. Sometimes I just go 5 LC because I know I won't fight MCs, just marines and hordes.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It begs the question what Codex do you use? Because there are differences, at least between the BT/DA Codices and the rest.l

[Jackelope King]

Almost always straight Thunder Hammer + Storm Shields. If you're not playing Black Templar or Blood Angels, the durability factor and threat-profile between one TH/SS Terminator and one Lightning Claw Terminator are quite different. What you lose in extra attacks and I4 (the I4, in my mind, is the biggest loss) you gain in durability. As was said above, TH/SS termies don't swoop in and curb-stomp mobs of 30 boyz. We're marines: we've got bolters, autocannons, missile launchers and flamers to deal with light infantry hordes. TH/SS Terminators beat down elite units and basically play massive interference by denying melee-happy armies a safe way in that won't get them whacked with Thunder Hammers.

[pattison]

I have failed to use 3 hammer / 2 claw units effectively.

Now I run 6 hammernators on foot and they are a totally different story.

Who needs I4 when you don't have grenades and most of the things you'd like to assault is in cover anyways?

[Mysticaria]

I have failed to use 3 hammer / 2 claw units effectively.

Now I run 6 hammernators on foot and they are a totally different story.

Who needs I4 when you don't have grenades and most of the things you'd like to assault is in cover anyways?

That's what the landraider is for. Assault launchers on the LRC and LRR will take care of the terrain for you.

 

-Myst

[pattison]

I need those points elsewhere.

Normally I'm not using LRs or TDA, but I simply needed a unit capable of counter-assaulting.

Originally I used GK termies with a hood, so it was a double-purpose unit, but I have to prepare for losing GK allies, so I experiment with hammernators.

1 LR is useless, 2 costs too many points. That's why I don't field them.

The only LR I actually like is the Achilles, but it cannot be used all the time and it's not capable of termie-transporting either...

Sorry for being a bit off, but termies and LRs are kind of one topic in most of the cases.

Hammernators can be fielded on foot and they can still work. I'm not completely convinced about using them but they're still a quite tough unit and if I really need to stop something that could ruin the day of my very shooty army they can do the job. Unfortunately no other CC-unit can perform better in the book.

I simply loved the fact that the GK termies could not even be shot at from more than 36", but those days will be over for us soon.

All in all, LRs die fast, and don't tell me that I'm doing something wrong, because what else can I do than move 12" pop smoke and hope for the best when I need that thing to deliver the passengers?

And once you've spent 200ish points on a transport and 200ish points on a pack of termies you have to build your whole list around them. And we do have much better things in the codex to build concepts upon. At least for me.

[Jackelope King]

If you want to try TH/SS Terminators on foot, Kirby over at 3++ Is the New Black has been experimenting quite a bit with what he calls the "Thunderbubble". It looks interesting enough to me, basically using TH/SS Terminators to create a line of "don't mess with me" to protect a shooty army, as no close-combat units really want to tangle with TH/SS Terminators.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I like the sound of this thunderbubble....it sounds.....ominous :o

 

I dislike hammernators on foot as an idea generally, but actually as a shield formation it sounds quite nice! The reason i dislike hammernators walking it (or LC termies for that matter) is obvious, they have no range and are walking it in. I feel you might aswell take something like vanguard vets in a rhino for those larger numbers, cheaper vehicle, faster deployment, and you can get storm shields, it might not hit quite as hard or be as cheap, but thats the price ya pay for not walking i guess...

 

I agree that as a combination the land raider+termies go hand in hand and a lot can be said about it, its normally something that people have heard quite a bit, but as the LR is the only transport that can take them, it tends to be a rather natural home! I think a single land raider CAN survive, but local meta will dictate if the conditions for actually making it worthwhile are there, if its just melta etc everywhere then you're better off with JKs policy of small and everywhere rather than taking a points heavy unit like termies and land raider (its like choosing between a thunder charged bull with a hammer for a face and a mass of xenos eating scarabs with a nasty look in their eye)

[pattison]

Kirby's blog is a gap filler, much needed, but I think everyone should be careful taking everything written there as is. I mean we're individual beings, and even if most of the things there are true each of us would do best with a slightly different army...

I know the concept of the Thunderbubble, and it's indeed interesting, but not that all new either.

The difference though is that my gunline is much faster than the ones in the original ThBubb lists.

I field 3x2 Typhoons constantly and when I realized that I can easily move almost my whole army from one flank to an other I decided that I only need a single, relatively cheap counter-assault unit that stops anything -that wants to come to me- for at least a turn and preferably does some damage.

GKs were simply perfect and I think bit more hammernators (for about the same points) would be able to do about the same job.

I mean my opinions about termies are not that representative, as I use them only as an asset not as The Unit. They're far from being the backbone of my army, while a lot of SM players tend to trust in their LR&termies above all. They are not that good. They have a role, but they're not game winners. They can provide support that enables other units to win the game for you.

[Grey Mage]

I recommend a 2:3 ratio. However, I find that wich is the 2 and wich is the 3 is mostly a matter of taste.

[LardO'Blood]

Kirby's blog is a gap filler, much needed, but I think everyone should be careful taking everything written there as is. I mean we're individual beings, and even if most of the things there are true each of us would do best with a slightly different army...

I know the concept of the Thunderbubble, and it's indeed interesting, but not that all new either.

The difference though is that my gunline is much faster than the ones in the original ThBubb lists.

I field 3x2 Typhoons constantly and when I realized that I can easily move almost my whole army from one flank to an other I decided that I only need a single, relatively cheap counter-assault unit that stops anything -that wants to come to me- for at least a turn and preferably does some damage.

GKs were simply perfect and I think bit more hammernators (for about the same points) would be able to do about the same job.

I mean my opinions about termies are not that representative, as I use them only as an asset not as The Unit. They're far from being the backbone of my army, while a lot of SM players tend to trust in their LR&termies above all. They are not that good. They have a role, but they're not game winners. They can provide support that enables other units to win the game for you.

Em.

I don't mind hammernators most of the time, but I dislike their use. Say you're playing a gunline army with no assault base to attack you. You just wasted at least 200 points on the hammernators, and chances are if you just slog them at him, then he will get shot apart by AP2 or magnitude of fire (And most gunlines have one of these, if not both). I would suggest tactical terminators, but they can't survive that long against CC specialists that are heading at your lines (or a 30 man ork mob). I think you should move along from terminators and look at vanguard, command squads and honor guard. I shall reference you to this thread: Honor Guard vs Command Squad vs Vanguard

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Kirby's blog is a gap filler, much needed, but I think everyone should be careful taking everything written there as is. I mean we're individual beings, and even if most of the things there are true each of us would do best with a slightly different army...

I know the concept of the Thunderbubble, and it's indeed interesting, but not that all new either.

The difference though is that my gunline is much faster than the ones in the original ThBubb lists.

I field 3x2 Typhoons constantly and when I realized that I can easily move almost my whole army from one flank to an other I decided that I only need a single, relatively cheap counter-assault unit that stops anything -that wants to come to me- for at least a turn and preferably does some damage.

GKs were simply perfect and I think bit more hammernators (for about the same points) would be able to do about the same job.

I mean my opinions about termies are not that representative, as I use them only as an asset not as The Unit. They're far from being the backbone of my army, while a lot of SM players tend to trust in their LR&termies above all. They are not that good. They have a role, but they're not game winners. They can provide support that enables other units to win the game for you.

Em.

I don't mind hammernators most of the time, but I dislike their use. Say you're playing a gunline army with no assault base to attack you. You just wasted at least 200 points on the hammernators, and chances are if you just slog them at him, then he will get shot apart by AP2 or magnitude of fire (And most gunlines have one of these, if not both). I would suggest tactical terminators, but they can't survive that long against CC specialists that are heading at your lines (or a 30 man ork mob). I think you should move along from terminators and look at vanguard, command squads and honor guard. I shall reference you to this thread: Honor Guard vs Command Squad vs Vanguard

 

Even as a deterrent, Terminators are worth 200pts in a decent sized game; to make your opponent go where you want them and leave entire sections of your firebase - in a Gunline - free to fire is wonderful value at 200.

[Bartali]

I don't mind hammernators most of the time, but I dislike their use. Say you're playing a gunline army with no assault base to attack you. You just wasted at least 200 points on the hammernators, and chances are if you just slog them at him, then he will get shot apart by AP2 or magnitude of fire (And most gunlines have one of these, if not both).

 

That's where GoI comes in. Alternatively, being shot apart can be a good thing. That's a whole lot of firepower they're shooting at your Terminators and not at the rest of the army

[pattison]

I will look at honour guard / command squads / vanguard, but they've always seemed so utterly overpriced for what they can do.

I mean it's unlikely to get as much out of them @ 200-240 pts as of assault termies. AND the biggest issue: I don't really take other HQs than MotFs and/or Libbies, and my Fast Attack slots are damn full... ...

 

And well yes... I don't really care what happens with my hammernators after they've halted something nasty for 1-2 turns. I don't even need them to get to the enemy.

I don't tend to win by rolling in and smashing faces but by area control, enemy movement manipulation and well timed maneouvering.

But let me educate myself with this link you've provide now, I'm really curious.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I personaly like 3:2 claws to hammers. Claws are killier against anything of T5 and below (aka almost everything), and its unlikely for any single salvo of shooting to to have enouph high AP weapons that you need more than 2 stormsheilds when playing with wound alocation. If you are trying to hunt vehicles, then tac terminators are better, as chainfists are fun fun fun.

 

 

As an important asside, if you are using a dex that alows mix and matching of terminators, (just wolves and dark angels if I recall) then you should ALWAYS include a Terminator with a heavy flamer, the ability to lay down a template of buring pain before running in and punching the hell out of the target should not be understimated. Sometimes its even worth it to run a tac termi squad with a heavy flamer as if it were an assult termi squad.

[Bartali]

I personaly like 3:2 claws to hammers. Claws are killier against anything of T5 and below (aka almost everything).....

 

What happens if they're >I4 and have power weapons and/or rending ?

If they're <I4 and don't have power weapons/rending, odds on they're a unit which is taking in large multiples - Terminators are not the way to go here.

[Wildfire]

It really depends on what you want the termies for. I personally vastly prefer TH/SS termies, because I feel that most everything else out there is able to be handled by my other squads. TH/SS termies provide something that the rest of my lists lack, resistance to power weapons and heavy hitting power.