Vanguards

[Forteller]

Elo folks,

 

Was wondering, specifically for Vanilla and mostly about BA armies,

would a list focused around vanguards work? I am talking the works

3 x 10 vanguards splitting into 6 x 5 all with proper upgrades, maybe some

blood priests dropping after em, some honour guards with melta/plasma/flamers

that sort of thing.

 

Can you tell me if they re worth it or not? What would they need to work properly and at what points are they viable? How should such lists be played? What should i avoid? Thanks a mil!

 

Cheers!

[Jackelope King]

Elo folks,

 

Was wondering, specifically for Vanilla and mostly about BA armies,

would a list focused around vanguards work? I am talking the works

3 x 10 vanguards splitting into 6 x 5 all with proper upgrades, maybe some

blood priests dropping after em, some honour guards with melta/plasma/flamers

that sort of thing.

 

Can you tell me if they re worth it or not? What would they need to work properly and at what points are they viable? How should such lists be played? What should i avoid? Thanks a mil!

 

Cheers!

By and large, avoid them in Codex: Space Marine armies. They're EXTREMELY expensive to kit out, and without at least some power weapon attacks, don't hit hard enough to do a whole heck of a lot, and still die as easily as other Marines.

 

In Codex: Blood Angels armies, particularly jumper armies, they're a terrifying hammer. Descent of Angels + Heroic Intervention + Proper application of kit = exposed enemy infantry cowering in terror. They're still overpriced, but BA can and do make them work. The major choice Jumper armies really face is whether to go for Vanguard Vets or Sanguinary Guard as their hammer unit (the consensus thus far is that you go Sanguinary Guard if you brought Dante, or else you go Vanguard Vets). Other than certain Joel Schumacher qualities to their armor, I love the Sanguinary Guard models, and think that if I were making the choice, I'd go Vanguard Vets using Sanguinary Guard models as Sergeants :)

[Forteller]

Yes yes all well and good, but how would you make it work? Its a good unit but if i want to focus my army around it what do i need to support em? How do i play em? How do i kit em out? Can i go 6 x 5?

[DarkGuard]

I believe Thade regularly uses a foot variant of them in a Land Raider (not sure which one). I'm not too sure about the specifics but I'm pretty sure he has a couple of guys with storm shields, a couple with power weapons and one with a power fist or thunder hammer or relic blade (sorry if I'm very wrong Thade!). Hopefully he'll come along and share his experience with you, but I think the gist of the theme is to have a couple of standard ones for bullet shields, and to put a couple of storm shields in on separate models to catch high AP shots but also protect power weapons, and you can play allocation games as well.

[Jackelope King]

Yes yes all well and good, but how would you make it work? Its a good unit but if i want to focus my army around it what do i need to support em? How do i play em? How do i kit em out? Can i go 6 x 5?

I don't have a ton of experience with 'em, and generally I'd say go ahead and combat squad. I don't know where you'll find the points to take 30 Vanguard Vets, though.

 

Were it me, I'd probably go with 2x Storm Shields, 2-3x Power Weapons, and then 2-3x Infernous Pistols (after considering points costs). But I'm not very confident in the details of running VV in Codex: Blood Angels.

[Br0ther Rafen]

From what advice Thade has given me in the past, he always has a SS for a single upgrade, so two PW's begets two SS's. This is a prett good system for having a nice unit that can lay down punishment and can stay relatively cheap.

As for building an army around them, you'll need to support them properly so that they can do what they need to do when they need to do it. Ie, the vanguard shouldn't have to bust open tanks just so that can get the squishy stuff inside. So, I'd guess Predators to kill the tanks, or Riflemen to kill the light tanks for vanilla. For Elites, obviously San Priests to make the Vanguard :yes: your pants worthy, for BA anyway. For vanilla, Termies are out of the question for their expensivity, so Dreads can drop in/riflemen their transports. HQ, Libby would be my choice in both cases, but whatever you like. Chappy could make a particular Vanguard unit even scarier if you want, but whatever.

Finally, Troops. You need them to support the Vanguard (obviously), so lots of Tacs with heavy weapons to bust transports.

For BA, you could do the same. But you also have the option of using assault squads with meltabombs/ powerfists to screen the Vanguard and destroy transports and be meatshields. or Death company in a dread to act as a disraction (but probably not the best idea). Try out a few lists, proxy or whatever, and see how you do. I would recommend BA for this type of build, but vanilla can also do it with a good list.

Also, I'm guessing JP's? For vanilla, Rhino's would probably be better choice so that you can keep the cost down.

I'll reply again latter with some more info, but that's my 2 cents for now.

[Ookami_81]

Could work with Blood Angels rules.

 

Some people even make full armies out of sanguinary guards in pack of five with a sarge with fist and meltapistol / plasmapistol on the others. With Dante they count as troops, and they can kill just about anything from light infantry to heavy tanks. Add priests for FC and FNP and you've got a glass army of pure CC madness and melta love for tanks... and a very poetic illustration of the "Angels of Death" concept ! :P

 

I don't know BA VV though, maybe they're not as polyvalent...

 

With C:SM, avoid them (even if you're like me and looove the idea of it).

[Br0ther Rafen]

To Ookami_81, vanilla vanguard can be quite devastating if applied correctly. If you just Heroic Intervention on 2nd turn, then they will die to the res of their army anyway. If used properly, like for a counter charge unit, they can hold back waves of orks and nids by themselves, it's just application.

Also, about the San Guard, having them, Dante, AND 30 Vanguard would probably be pretty expensive, close to 1000 or thereabouts. You can do that if you'd like, but they won't have proper support to do what they need to do. Still, I reckon that would be a cool List to try out.

[Ookami_81]

The pure "golden wing" BA list is very difficult to put on proper use. Yeah, no support, a bit like using a really pure bike C:SM army without firebase, and even worse I think. I heard some people did well with it in Ard Boyz contests, but I must admit I find it really funny, exceptionally on 2 vs 2 battles: real Angels Of Death coming right out of the sky to save the Imperium armies ! The myth of Sanguinor incarnate in an entire army !

 

I have heard of C:SM vanguards used as counter-charge unit, but I dislike the very idea. I admit they can be used to good effect that way, but what can 5 of these guys do that 10 regular assault marines cannot in the same role ? And they cost about the same. For some you've got flamers, for others you've got LCs.

 

In my opinion, Veteran Vanguard should be able to wreck faces offensively, they should be the most powerful C:SM CC unit against troops, like hammernators are against tougher ennemies... at roughly the same cost and use.

 

Heroic Intervention on hordes should have the same effect as exiting from a land raider on heavy infantry for hammernators, and at the same price.

 

It isn't the case. So Vanguards are not what they should be, and can be replaced in regular counter charge routine by standard assault marines. Don't use Chuck Norris where Vin Diesel is enough. So I don't use them, even if I love the very idea they exist.

[Br0ther Rafen]

The pure "golden wing" BA list is very difficult to put on proper use. Yeah, no support, a bit like using a really pure bike C:SM army without firebase, and even worse I think. I heard some people did well with it in Ard Boyz contests, but I must admit I find it really funny, exceptionally on 2 vs 2 battles: real Angels Of Death coming right out of the sky to save the Imperium armies ! The myth of Sanguinor incarnate in an entire army !

I agree, it i have seen it and it does look either a. funny most of the time, or b. freakin awsome when they properly smash face.

 

I have heard of C:SM vanguards used as counter-charge unit, but I dislike the very idea. I admit they can be used to good effect that way, but what can 5 of these guys do that 10 regular assault marines cannot in the same role ? And they cost about the same. For some you've got flamers, for others you've got LCs.

They don't need to be kitted out at all, actually. 10x BA Vanguard Furious Charging something will kill most things, even uber units like TWC or hammernators. Vanilla obviously don't have this, but then they have Relic Blades which are my favourite thing in the Codex at the moment.

 

Heroic Intervention on hordes should have the same effect as exiting from a land raider on heavy infantry for hammernators, and at the same price.

[/qoute]

 

They can do this, and the only problem is that unless its a 30x+ unit, they eat the mob, and then die half a second later.

5x HIing could do some 2 turn kills quick without dying straight afterward. so try that on for size.