Exploding vehicle crater

[trefenwyd]

So . . . issue came up last weekend, and Khârn and his lone CSM minion exploded my razorback, then put down a crater in place of the razorback (our store having a good supply of craters on hand, but all of them are slightly larger than a rhino chassis), and now lo and behold, Khârn and his CSM buddy on the edge of a crater and get a 4+ cover from my shooting. I argued that the BRB says that the crater is supposed to be the same size as the razorback (despite all GW craters being larger than a standard rhino chassis) and that the crater needs to be positioned next to (but not encompassing) his assaulting unit. He disagreed and said that the "explosion" can cause the crater to be larger than the razor's footprint (falling debris and all that fluff nonsense) and that all the BRB said to do what replace the vehicle with a crater of approx. the same size (sorry, don't have my BRB in front of me at the moment.).

 

The perfect solution would be to make several craters that are the exact size of a Rhino/LR/Drop Pod/Walker chassis and bring them to tourneys, but then there's no guarantee that my opponent would agree to use my craters...

 

Just wondering how everyone else plays this.

 

Thanks,

 

Trefenwyd

[breng77]

All the BRB says is that the Vehicle is replaced with an area of difficult terrain if you have one. Which implies (does not state) that only the vehicle is replaced, otherwise there is not size restriction. So bring 2 sets of craters one "legal" set of craters that are the size of your vehicles. And a second set of craters that are 18" in diameter or larger, since the BRB says it is a spectacular explosion ;).

[Seahawk]

A vehicle turns into a crater. A crater gives a 4+ cover save. Ergo...:D

 

The crater needs to be the size of the vehicle, according to the BRB. In fun games, it can be bigger or smaller, however! The model within should only be in the same location as the edge of the vehicle, not the edge of a (very large) crater.

 

In tournaments, the absolute best thing to do is cut some material to the shape and write funny things on it. For instance, one guy I played against let me use his, and they were unpainted but took up the same dimensions as a rhino. He wrote on each something like "One less iron coffin!" and "I used to carry people!" It was cut from linoleum flooring, but you can do it with foam board, cardboard, whatever. Decorate it however you want and bam, instant vehicle crater. Comedy makes it so everyone has a good time.

[Dan VK]

In tournaments, the absolute best thing to do is cut some material to the shape and write funny things on it. For instance, one guy I played against let me use his, and they were unpainted but took up the same dimensions as a rhino. He wrote on each something like "One less iron coffin!" and "I used to carry people!" It was cut from linoleum flooring, but you can do it with foam board, cardboard, whatever. Decorate it however you want and bam, instant vehicle crater. Comedy makes it so everyone has a good time.

Not only do I agree, but I think that is absolutely awesome! :lol:

[nurglez]

the craters me and my friends use are generally larger then the vehicles, but we just put them down sort of on top of where the vehicle was, and then put the unit where they should be in relation to where they were when the vehicle went boom.

 

so yes they generally end up in cover, but it hasn't been a game altering experience so far.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

The point here is also: Do the guys get a cover save for the explosion?

 

My answer would be no, but is mostly focused on fluff as I am not 100% sure how it is written in the rule.

But I do not think it says: Place down a crater AND THEN do damage to all models around it. I think it is just AND, and such happens at the same time. So you can argue that the models actually are not yet in the crater at the time of the explosion (which is also fluffy, because what damages them is also what causes the crater in the first place).

 

So, even if the crater is bigger than the vehicle, there is no real reason for the models to have cover because it all happens at the same time.

Unless, of course, the BRB clearly states an order (by the word THEN) that says: Remove tank, place difficult terrain, do damage.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg.61 states there is an explosion then the vehicle is removed and replaced with a crater.

No cover save (unless the unit was already in cover,before the boom)

[Spacefrisian]

The weirdest thing i've heard was a guy saying, i have no crater so i dont need to roll for difficult terrain, he di however take cover saves from it the weirdo.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

BRB pg.61 states there is an explosion then the vehicle is removed and replaced with a crater.

No cover save (unless the unit was already in cover,before the boom)

 

Ah.. so the rule is even specific about the order! But then being such that the crater happens after the 'splosion.

 

Case closed surely then.

[trefenwyd]

Not quite case closed - you misunderstand the question . . . I think everyone agrees that the assaulting models do not get a cover save from the explosion - the question is really does the resulting crater encompass the assaulting models (i.e., giving them a 4+ cover in my shooting phase, counting as being in cover my assault phase which may cause me not to reach them due to difficult terrain and/or striking last, etc.)

 

It's an issue because there is no consolidation after vehicle assault, so the crater placement CAN have game changing impact. To be honest, I'm fine playing it either way, and it seems like my shop's house rules are going to be to use the larger craters and thus placing the assaulting models in cover (as nurglez does apparently). I just wanted to know if there was a consensus out there regarding an ambiguous BRB statement with potential game-changing implications.

[breng77]

most tournaments that I have played use crater size = vehicle size.

[Seahawk]

Right, so technically no the unit that was in BTB with the vehicle are outside the crater area and thus get no cover. Just another point for making the right sized craters with funny phrases...

[BOBMAKENZIE]

The weirdest thing i've heard was a guy saying, i have no crater so i dont need to roll for difficult terrain, he di however take cover saves from it the weirdo.

 

I had the opposite happen once. Guy didnt put down a crater for his tank. made me roll DT to move through the crater and then when shooting me claimed I didnt get a Cover save because he hadnt bought a crater and put it on the board. :huh: after a good hour of such things I had had enough and told his quite firmly that he could go stuff himself, that this was a gentleman's game and that if he was going to have that lousy attitude I would rip the back cover off my rule book (it has fallen off int he past and I just taped it on) rip it into a chimera shaped blob and put it down as a fething crater.... made me feel good.

[trefenwyd]

Seahawk,

 

I will definitely be making some craters - now I just need to convince opponents to use them.

 

Thanks,

 

Trefenwyd

[nurglez]

I do think that having "proper" shapped craters are important, however as I play with friends its not a huge problem.

 

I guess the solution is to have several different craters sized for different vehicles, and enough of them to last the fight....

[Mezkh]

Seems pretty ambiguous in the BRB.

 

Isn't cover LOS based?

[Isiah]

Remember nurglez it could be a crater or wreckage :unsure:. Bits of random sprue and/or spares box vehicle bits would do just as well although admittedly not look as good.

 

The main fault of this rule is the BRB not fully specifying the area/size that should be used. One assumes it must be of a similar area to the exploded vehicle – but you're under no obligation by RAW to take that as being the case.

 

The only clue as to the possible area of this 'crater' or 'debris' is the radius of flaming wreckage scattering defined by the D6. But flaming wreckage flinging does not = crater per se.

 

Scenery – "discuss beforehand" is the golden rule.

[Phosis]

Are you going to remove the vehicle before you measure the D6" explosion from the hull of the vehicle to see which models are touched?

 

If it was my Chaos Spawn or something in the blast, I wouldn't take a cover save from a crater that hasn't been placed yet..

[Dan VK]

Remember nurglez it could be a crater or wreckage ;). Bits of random sprue and/or spares box vehicle bits would do just as well although admittedly not look as good.

 

The main fault of this rule is the BRB not fully specifying the area/size that should be used. One assumes it must be of a similar area to the exploded vehicle – but you're under no obligation by RAW to take that as being the case.

 

The only clue as to the possible area of this 'crater' or 'debris' is the radius of flaming wreckage scattering defined by the D6. But flaming wreckage flinging does not = crater per se.

:D

 

Scenery – "discuss beforehand" is the golden rule.

 

There are a lot of ambiguous/confusing sections of the terrain rules. I dislike the five minutes I need to spend hashing out the rules for each piece of terrain with my opponent, but it sure beats the forty five minutes of argument that could result from not discussing what rules apply to which pieces of terrain.

[trefenwyd]

Isiah/Dan,

 

Can't agree more. Like I said, doesn't matter which way we play it, we just need to be on the same page before the game starts. I always thoroughly review terrain with opponents - just never thought to review terrain that's not on the board yet! Just one more thing I'm going to have to remember to clarify with opponents before game start... Thanks for the discussion everyone!

[Haakon Lightfang]

With our group, we've always played it that the area of difficult terrain = the vehicle size + the d6" from the explosion. I haven't been in the tournament scene to know how they do it around here but that's how we do it in our friendly games. We've taken to using cheap tape (electrical, as it's easy to peel off) to denote the areas.

 

I'll have to discuss it with the guys and see if we want to adjust that to simply being the size of the vehicle. It'd definitely make it easier moving around the table with all the Rhino/Chimera/Raider spam that happens. :D

[Ming]

here at the worlds finest 40K game establishment, we have craters of wrecked rhinos, and we also have felt cut to the approx. shape of a rhino and other vehicles.

 

When a transport is exploded, IIRR we do this -

 

1. Attacker rolls for the size of the explosion. Attacker rolls to wound the former occupants of the transport (S4), defender rolls to wound attackers within the extent of the explosion (S3). Saves occur and results applied to both sides.

2. Vehicle is now removed and replaced with something representing its former location (4+ area terrain now giving cover to future shooting).

3. Defender places his surviors within the new piece of area terrain, "more than" 1-inch from any attacker.

4. Defender rolls for pinning. If more than 25% casulaties to the unit from the explosion (either attacker or defender) morale checks are likely made.

4. Game continues. If the attacker now can assault the survivors, he rolls for difficult terrain in order to reach them. If he rolls double 1's, he is too far away to asault. Survivors salute the attackers in their normal, culturally dictated manner.

[Seahawk]

If he rolls double 1's, he is too far away to asault

This is wrong unless they are more than 1" away from each other, like 1.5" or 2". The assault rules say that if you are the minimum distance away from each other, so 1" (technically slightly more, by the merest fraction or whatever), even if you roll snakes you still make it.

[Coverfire]

the way I see it is that the exploded vehicle isn't going to be flush with the battlefield.

 

The models which destroyed the vehicle won't be in a crater but certainly be able to crouch behind debris.

Unless the models are being shot at from behind, in which there would be very little detritus available to use

as cover, that the models could claim cover saves.

 

I might try to buy some ruined rhinos and mess them up a bit :(

 

Or if anyone has examples of exploded wrecks that they could offer us by way of inspiration.

[Algesan]

Scenery – "discuss beforehand" is the golden rule.

There are a lot of ambiguous/confusing sections of the terrain rules. I dislike the five minutes I need to spend hashing out the rules for each piece of terrain with my opponent, but it sure beats the forty five minutes of argument that could result from not discussing what rules apply to which pieces of terrain.

 

Best part of this forum is I'm able to generate a list of rules questions to ask before I play. If it reads one way, then I might use different tactics than another way. It doesn't matter if the alternate interpretation is stupid, silly or frivolous, the main thing is that everyone plays the same way.