Tanks

[Brother Gathurn]

So I am soon going to be buying one tank, and only one. I currently have enough rhinos/razorbacks to mount my whole force plus two landraiders, one land speeder, and one drop pod. So I need to decide what tank to get.

 

I generally run three tac squads all in rhino's and with pf's. One has ml and flamer, one has plasma, and one has melta I also have a squad of attack bikes with multimeltas I then take either a captain with a command squad or a assault squad with an inquisitor in a rb. I fill the rest of my points with either termys in landraiders, scouts, or dreadnoughts. Generally not dreadnoughts.

 

So, two questions. Which tank would be best for use with my army? Second, which tank is best in general?

 

My thoughts: Vindicators are wonderful, i've used them many times and find that they put down devestaing firepower. Except i strongly dislike how they cannot move and shoot, that's there biggest flaw. Their also rather fragile. I'm currently leaning toward a predator, which i will magnatize. They are much more mobile, and while their firepower cannot compare I feel that the increased manuverability and survivability are worth it. The whirlwind just dosen't look all that attractive. It's only useful agains low tough hordes and is totally worthless against transports, which is a significant problem with so much meq. your thoughts?

[Jackelope King]

I'll almost always err for the Predator over the Vindicator. Consider that a Vindicator will often have to roll forward and expose its side-armor, and it only has a single, short-ranged weapon. It worries a lot more about glancing shots than a Predator, making the Predator a much more resilient tank. Of course, 3x Predators are better than 1x Predator, and I'm never too happy with one-ofs in my lists. Redundancy is king.

[DarkGuard]

I agree with Jackelope King about Vindicators vs Preds, But I love Vindys! Amazing vehicles who's prime purpose is drawing firepower away from your Rhinos, and if its gun hits then something with die. Also, I'm afraid you are mistaken Brother Gathurn, the Vindicator can move at combat speed and still fire its demolisher cannon. Rather, it is the Predator that is static in order to fire at full effect (can only fire one weapon out of three when moving combat speed), although this isn't much of a problem due to its long range. Plus it has better weapon redundancy, as JK has already pointed out.

 

It comes down to what you need most in your army, a unit that can level anything and will definitely draw firepower away from your transports. Or a unit that will probably also draw firepower away from your transports, and is able to be more survivable while constantly laying down firepower from a long range.

 

However, I agree with JK, in that you want at least two Preds or Vindys, rather than just one.

[LardO'Blood]

Depends. Vindicators are GREAT if you can bring land raider(s) along to give them 14 on the sides. In other circumstances however, I recommend a predator. I enjoy twin linked lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons.

[Mysticaria]

Vindicators are pure awesome when used in pairs or trips, but not so great with a one of. Short range on gun is going to mean its going to be out there getting hit a lot more than a predator sitting at the back of the board.

 

All things considered, I like vindicator a lot more than a predator. But... if you only get 1 vehicles in the army, predator makes a lot more sense here.

 

-Myst

[KhorneHunter57x]

I think that the general consensus will be that if you were buying two tanks, then we would suggest a pair of Vindicators, but as you are only buying one, I think that the Predator would go better with the force. That said, with a pair of Land Raiders and a Vindicator in the force, your opponent would be forced to choose their target between the AV 14 hulls or the mobile siege gun.

 

That said, what are the patterns of your two Land Raiders? This can help us figure out which tank would fit better.

 

I enjoy twin linked lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons.

I am glad I am not the only one who does.

[Wildfire]

Vindis, hands down (assuming vanilla marines). I love 'em. The thing is, you gotta realize that shooting their cannon is their secondary purpose. Their primary purpose is to suck up fire that would otherwise be directed at the transports for all those tac marines. If my vindi dies or loses it cannon but takes enough fire that my rhinos get a free turn of driving, I consider it a resounding success!

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Go with the Vindicator. Ignore the spam lovers. I've played with one vindicator for most of my life and do quite well.

[norngahl]

Lets break it down.

 

For the price of a Vindicator with siege shield you get a Predator with autocannon and two lascannons.

 

Both have the same armor and so I consider them to be equally durable. So it comes down to the damage output. First, the Predator.

 

The Combi-Predator offers you 2 S7 AP4 shots and 2 S9 AP2 shots at 48" range on both weapons. Those are split into 3 weapon systems. So he can be a great threat to everything. He can do serious wounds on MCs, destroy tanks up to AV13 without to much effort, stun AV14 tanks and kill heavy infantry. He doesn´t do so well vs. masses, because he has only 4 shots. He isn´t really good on the move, because unless you are BA, he can only fire 1 weapon while moving. So, to get most out of him, he needs to remain stationary. Because of the range of his weapons he can sit backwards and shoot stuff. This makes him more or less a bit more durable as the Vindicator, because he can stay out of close fire range of AT weapon systems (such as meltas) most of the time. As well, he can stay out of charge range. If he remains stationary, his vulnerability to CC attacks increases. If he moves the vulnerability decreases, but as well his firepower. So from his nature he tends to sit back, shoot the heavy targets and let other do the job for killing the bodies. Due to his 3 weapon systems he is much tougher to destroy or to stop than the Vindicator.

 

The Vindicator offers you a S10 AP2 plate with a range of 24". So it´s clear that he has to move into the range of more dangerous weapons to bring death upon his enemy. He can hurt any enemy with ease, tanks because he can choose a rolled dice, with S10 even a Land Raider doesn´t appear that hard anymore, he can kill masses as its pretty easy to grab 7 models with his plate and as well he can do serious harm to heavy infantry, due to 2+ to wound and AP2. He isn´t very good vs. MCs, as he can only steal one LP per hit. He keeps his full kill potential on the move, as he only has one gun. While he moves, he increases his survivability against CC attacks and and his effective gun range to 30". The biggest downside on the Vindicator is that he has to move in range of very dangerous AT weapons such as meltas, if he looses his gun he is (let´s name it, don´t come around with LOS blocking and ramming) useless AND his gun has to hit.. Yes he is great against tanks, but, with a (/) result of a 7" scatter, he will often scatter off the vehicle with his 3" scattering in the end. So you have to place the template in the middle of the vehicle, hope to hit (6/18 chance) or to scatter minimal (5/18) resulting in an 11/18 shot to hit. Not that reliable as an AT weapon.. If the shot scatters too much, the Vindicator will most time do nothing. If he hits, he will do damage. Against heavy infantry he is pretty good, IF he hits.. Same thing here, expensive elites tend to be expensive. If you hit, you hit hard, if you scatter, you will propably won´t get a model under your plate. Against masses he is really great, as scatter isn´t important.

 

So, breakdown.

 

The Combi-Predator hangs stationary in the back to aim his guns at heavy targets. He does this quite well, granted. If he has to move he won´t do much damage. He more or less sucks against masses. He isn´t as vulnerable to shooting as the vindicator, as his the range of his guns grants him a place in the most times safe backfield. You just place him and let him shoot expensive stuff. That´s it.

 

The Vindicator is a bit more chaotic. He can (and often must) move to reach targets. He can do serious harm to anything as long as it isn´t a MC or too small so that the shot scatters away. If he hits, it makes BOOOM, if not, well, that´s bad for you. He is not as durable as the Combi-Predator as he has to move in dangerous range of hard AT weapons and because he carries only 1 gun, he can often be easily shut down.

 

Me thinks the Vindicator has a very aggressive damage output but depends more on your dices. He shines when doesn´t scatter and when he doesn´t loose his gun early. The Predator hasn´t those "OMG HE KILLED ANYTHING" moments but grants a reliable damage output. In the end it´s about risk and high damage or die vs. mediocore staying damage output.

[Grey Mage]

Vindis, hands down (assuming vanilla marines). I love 'em. The thing is, you gotta realize that shooting their cannon is their secondary purpose. Their primary purpose is to suck up fire that would otherwise be directed at the transports for all those tac marines. If my vindi dies or loses it cannon but takes enough fire that my rhinos get a free turn of driving, I consider it a resounding success!

Vindicator- largely for this reason.

 

Mostly though, because in C:SM the worst thing to hunt enemy tanks with is a tank.

[LardO'Blood]

Nornghal: Vindicators can't move and shoot. Demolishers are ordnance weapons. I think you are under estimating the vindicator. It is a much scarier thing to face then a combi predator just because it will most likely kill what it hits. As such they suck up AT firepower, this alone makes them great in rhino heavy mech lists that are operating in close proximity with the enemy. Lastly, a vindicator has an 27/81 chance to hit, a LC/AC pred has a 16/81 chance to hit with all weapons. This is not including a scatter of 0.

[Grey Mage]

Nornghal: Vindicators can't move and shoot. Demolishers are ordnance weapons. I think you are under estimating the vindicator. It is a much scarier thing to face then a combi predator just because it will most likely kill what it hits. As such they suck up AT firepower, this alone makes them great in rhino heavy mech lists that are operating in close proximity with the enemy. Lastly, a vindicator has an 27/81 chance to hit, a LC/AC pred has a 16/81 chance to hit with all weapons. This is not including a scatter of 0.

 

Actually Ordnance weapons CAN be fired on the move, but in such circumstances they are the only weapon that can be fired *baring special rules like PotMS or Lumbering Behemoth*

[LardO'Blood]

Really? My bad! I suppose I was thinking about how chapter masters can't move and orbital bombard.

[norngahl]

Nornghal: Vindicators can't move and shoot. Demolishers are ordnance weapons. I think you are under estimating the vindicator. It is a much scarier thing to face then a combi predator just because it will most likely kill what it hits. As such they suck up AT firepower, this alone makes them great in rhino heavy mech lists that are operating in close proximity with the enemy. Lastly, a vindicator has an 27/81 chance to hit, a LC/AC pred has a 16/81 chance to hit with all weapons. This is not including a scatter of 0.

 

Hehe, maybe YOU are understimating the Combi-Predator :rolleyes:

 

Sure, Vindis will soak firepower as no one likes a S10 AP2 plate in his face. But the question is- do I want to let it soak that much firepower so that it is nullified round per round (shaken/stunned, weapon destroyed, destroyed)? Once the weapon destroyed result occurs (this comes fast if the enemy aims a lot of weapons at it) the Vindicator is out of the game. He won´t soak firepower anymore and he won´t do any harm. A weapon destroyed result comes around easily on turn one if the enemy really focus his firepower.. So the question is- is it worth it?

 

Is it worth it to sacrifice a 120 point tank to have a round of shooting with my other tanks?

 

As well remeber, if the Vindcator gets stunned the enemy will focus on other vehicles anyway. So it´s as long a fire magnet as it can fire, two hits from a lascannon and it is out for the rest of the turn.

 

So is the Combi-Predator, but 3 times as tough as the Vindicator when it comes to weapon destroyed results. It REMAINS a threat that must be dealed with. It isn´t as killy as the Vindicator but much more durable. It will soak firepower over rounds, putting the weight of fire on many shoulders.

 

What we SHOULD think of is the fact, that it depends on the rest of the list. I play a Mech-Gunline, where the Combi-Predator fits perfectly in the concept. An aggressive Marine list will propably fare better with the Vindicator, as it gains it´s AT from short ranged weapons and wants to weaken the enemies footsloggers before Hammernators slap your face.

[Validar]

As well remeber, if the Vindcator gets stunned the enemy will focus on other vehicles anyway. So it´s as long a fire magnet as it can fire, two hits from a lascannon and it is out for the rest of the turn.

 

But I guess that isn't really an argument against the vindicator, is it? :cuss You could say exactly the same for the predator.

[norngahl]

As well remeber, if the Vindcator gets stunned the enemy will focus on other vehicles anyway. So it´s as long a fire magnet as it can fire, two hits from a lascannon and it is out for the rest of the turn.

 

But I guess that isn't really an argument against the vindicator, is it? :cuss You could say exactly the same for the predator.

 

If you plan to field the Vindicator as a fire magnet as Wildfire or LardO´Blood said it is an argument against the Vindicator rather than against the Predator ;)

[LardO'Blood]

Well, I can destroy any tank in the game with a single multi melta shot. In fact, predators are rendered useless from a penetrating hit 2/6 of the time, the vindicator 3/6. They are not that much more resilient. A las cannon shot from BS4 has a 2/27 chance to neuter, explode or destroy a vindicator. Thats actually about 14 las cannon shots. (assuming front armor and it isn't glanced to death. Front armor is also usually facing at the lascannons because there are very few lascannons that can out maneuver you. Land raiders and predators.)

[chaplain belisarius]

i love vindicators so i suggest getting them...:)

[DarkGuard]

It really comes down to what you need in a list and what is lacking. I use rifleman dreads for my anti-vehicle, and have lots of flamers and bolter for infantry. But what my Vindys do is take firepower away from my army, and allow me to threaten any infantry unit. I don't need preds (except perhaps dakka preds, but I prefer the Vindy anyway), but that Vindy keeps my Rhinos alive for longer. Plus, Vindys are hard to take down, front armour 13. Of course, they're more likely to expose side armour of 11 than a Pred, but if you position them well, protect side armour with cover and Rhinos, then they will stay alive longer.

 

Furthermore, you can use Vindys as a defensive unit. True, it sounds like you want to move them forwards to get the gun in range. However, in a recent game there were two objectives, and I deployed my Vindys in backfield to protect my objective. My opponent deep striked down with Termys to take it, failed to kill the Vindys, and lost them all next turn. Bit lucky for me, bit unlucky for him, but a way in which Vindys can be used defensively. They don't have to be shooting all the time, but when they do shoot, they can make a big mess. The way I look at them, they're doing their job if their being shot at, and if my opponent gets shot up that's a bonus.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I played a game yesterday against a drop pod/mech Space Wolves army at 1250. We were on a smaller board because the big ones were taken. It was Dawn of War, so I couldn't deploy my whole army. He stole the initiative, of course. I almost never get first turn. He basically slaughtered my two tac squads and the captain with his Drop Pods and rhino squads. Space Wolves should not be able to shoot that well. On the third turn, I get my termies and vindicator. The Vindicator shoots at a pack of Wolves who had just finished massacring one of my tac squads. It earns back its points instantly by killing a Wolf Priest and some regular Hunters. Next turn, my third tac squad and only remaining scoring unit comes in. He's holding the second objective in my deployment zone with an uber death unit. My Vindicator fires, kills yet more wolves. The tac squad also kills a few. Sixth turn, I am desperate. He has the survivors of that pack strung out so that they can shoot my marines at close range but still hold the objective. He has four left and split off the Wolf Lord to assault the tac squad who barely win. My Vindicator shoots, kills three of the four. The fourth runs 12 inches away. I win. I think that Vindicator earned double its points and won me the game. Go Vindicators!

[DarkGuard]

Vindicators do really have great destructive potential, and a dead on shot can ruin your opponent's plans. I've had many games like the two above where they have been pivotal to winning it because they took away fire, or they destroyed a lot of the enemy. Of course I've had a lot of games where the Vindicators have been destroyed, or lost their gun first turn. I've had games where every single shot of theirs has scattered off target, or when I've had poor rolls to wound. But they still did a job by drawing enemy firepower away.

 

So as has been said earlier, the Vindicators can be more destructive, but they aren't as reliable as Preds. If you need a reliable source of damaging firepower, go for Preds. If you want something with a bit more 'bang', regardless of how reliable it is, then the Vindicator is for you.

[Lord PoPo]

I've skimmed this thread and so I'm not sure if someone has covered this yet (apologies if someone has).

 

Yes, everyone knows how good the vindicator is at soaking up firepower. If you have a landraider (or two) then giving it a 4+ "save" makes it all but impossible to pop it at distance. At the very least, it will be difficult to destroy it until it gets within range.

 

People have also noted that the range of the vindicator puts it within range of weapons that will severely hurt it (essentially, melta death) however, though this may be somewhat hard to believe, a space marine has the following chance of significantly hurting a vindicator (I won't be counting immobilized, as if you're within melta range of a vindicator, it won't matter if you immobilize it or not) is: 2/3*13/18*1/2 +1/9*1/6= (13/54)+(1/54)= 14/54=7/27= 3.9.

 

Essentially, you need to allow your opponent to get 4 guys within melta range before you should start sweating... unless your vindicator is in cover (which it always should be) in which case... double that figure. There are units that can do this however. Among the space marine arsenal, these units include attack bikes, and land speeders. However, Their effective melta range is 24" while the vindicator's effective range is 30"

 

Finally. The vindicator is not at its best when it is attacking...

 

:huh:

 

When I played mech armies, my vindicator(s) shined most when they were able to camp behind LOS blocking terrain, and cover my objectives, sniping units (that's right... Sniping with a demolisher cannon :D ) that came close. Again, The vindicator has an effective 30" range, not 24. if you can park it like described above, your opponent will have a murderous time trying to take that objective from you.

 

 

As for the matter of extra survivability. If your army revolves around your vindicators for it's fire support. Give them an extra storm bolter, extra armour, and a dozer blade. The extra armor keeps it mobile till it can find cover, and the storm bolter allows you to survive multiple weapon destroyed results before losing your main gun.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Note that the Vindicator already comes with a storm bolter. No need to buy another one.

[Mysticaria]

As for the matter of extra survivability. If your army revolves around your vindicators for it's fire support. Give them an extra storm bolter, extra armour, and a dozer blade. The extra armor keeps it mobile till it can find cover, and the storm bolter allows you to survive multiple weapon destroyed results before losing your main gun.

um... since the enemy choses which weapon to detroy... this usually results in them chosing the demolisher canon first. I can't think of a scenario where someone would chose to destroy the storm bolter first, but it could happen I suppose. Maybe.

 

-Myst

[Lord PoPo]

As for the matter of extra survivability. If your army revolves around your vindicators for it's fire support. Give them an extra storm bolter, extra armour, and a dozer blade. The extra armor keeps it mobile till it can find cover, and the storm bolter allows you to survive multiple weapon destroyed results before losing your main gun.

um... since the enemy choses which weapon to detroy... this usually results in them chosing the demolisher canon first. I can't think of a scenario where someone would chose to destroy the storm bolter first, but it could happen I suppose. Maybe.

 

-Myst

 

;)

 

I fail, sorry about that folks