Space Wolves Great Company in Apocalypse

[dswanick]

This discussion began in the Apoc Forum thread about using the Masters of the Chapter Formation with Space Wolves characters. Some posters allowed that they would be willing to accept Logan Grminar +4 Wolf Lords as satisfying for this formation, but at the same time said that they would consider a Space Wolves "Battle Company" to beardy (I'm summing up here). I really don't grasp what is being said there, but instead of highjacking the thread on an off-topic discussion I figured I would branch it off here were I can get input and leave the OPs thread to reach its normal conclusion on the other formation. The other thread can be found here.

[dswanick]

So basically, here's my thought : In a 2,000pt 40k game I can field

HQ: Wolf Guard Battle Leader

Elite: Wolf Guard X5

Elite: Wolf Guard X6 (as Pack leaders)

6X Troops: Grey Hunters X9 (or 4X Grey Hunter and 2X Bloodclaw)

2X Fast Attack: Skyclaws X10

2X Heavy Support: Longfangs X6 (w/ML as a middle cost option)

All this costs 1,718pts. Leaving me with 292pts for wargear and upgraded weapons. In a larger 40k game I would have the spare points and FOC slots to add Preds, Dreads, WG Termis, Scouts, Rune Priests, etc...

So, why then, can't I field this very same unit in Apocalypse and for the extra 200pts get my one Orbital Bombardment (Space Wolves are noted as having one of the biggest fleets of any Chapter), Careful Planning (is there something somewhere that makes Space Wolves NOT sound like having a "first turn strike" combat mentality? And I'm ignoring Hold at all Cost as it doesn't greatly affect a fair number of Apoc games using the 5th ed scoring units method.

The only "problem" I foresee with this is a stricktly RAW position that the formation calls for a 10-man Devastator squad and our Longfangs only come in pckas of up to 6. But that doesn't seem to concern those arguing against this useage.

[dswanick]

A summation of the other thread before splitting off:

Being one of the strongest opponents to apocalypse shenanigans on the board, I would allow this. It is well within the spirit and fluff of the suplement. Start trying to field space wolf "battle companies" and we will have a separate discussion.

 

The cardinal rule is, does your choice better represent how your army is supposed to fight than your current options? If yes, go ahead. If you're just trying to beard some extra buffs, you will get an official Russ facepalm.

Being one of the strongest opponents to apocalypse shenanigans on the board, I would allow this. It is well within the spirit and fluff of the suplement. Start trying to field space wolf "battle companies" and we will have a separate discussion.

 

The cardinal rule is, does your choice better represent how your army is supposed to fight than your current options? If yes, go ahead. If you're just trying to beard some extra buffs, you will get an official Russ facepalm.

I'm curious: why the dislike of a Space Wolves "battle company"?

 

Probably because Space Wolf Great Company organization is different than your standard Ultrasmurf Battle Company. Which is to say that it's less organized and more freeform, according to the whim of the particular Wolf Lord who runs it.

 

-Stormshrug

Being one of the strongest opponents to apocalypse shenanigans on the board, I would allow this. It is well within the spirit and fluff of the suplement. Start trying to field space wolf "battle companies" and we will have a separate discussion.

 

The cardinal rule is, does your choice better represent how your army is supposed to fight than your current options? If yes, go ahead. If you're just trying to beard some extra buffs, you will get an official Russ facepalm.

I'm curious: why the dislike of a Space Wolves "battle company"?

 

A space marine battle company represents both an organizational unit and a set of combat tactics that are very similar to modern fire and manuver. As Space Wolves have nowhere near the same organizational stucture and more "warband" based tactics, the only reason to take a battle company is to cheese out the bonuses.

 

I would have a similar problem with a space wolf Titan hammer formation. Given that the only reason this formation works is the teleporting element and the fact that space wolves don't use teleporters.

It mostly has to do with the fact that the Space Wolves don't fight in large organized formations. (Like those represented by a battle company.) They tend to be more warband oriented and, as such, far less organized on a strategic level. No less effective combat wise, just different.

 

Think of it this way. Unless a chapter is on it's last legs, a fresh battle company will ALWAYS have the troops listed in this formation. Thus their tactics and strategic planning will reflect this force balance. Space Worf great companies will be far more flexible in their composition and use that flexibility to their advantage. In fact, it is likely that most Wolf Lords will laugh their beards off if you sugest that they use Codex Astartes tactics. If you insist, they will probably arange a face to face meeting between you and your rectum.

 

What the formation represents is the strategic advantage that a Codex force gains by fighting in their ideal force balance. As the SW company has no "ideal" balance, it's much harder to justify the extra benefits. (Other than wanting to beard the benefits.)

OK, so you've paraphrased what was said in your last post - and I still don't see your point.

- "They tend to be more warband oriented and, as such, far less organized on a strategic level." - so are you saying that Space Wolves can't be used in Apocalypse? Are you saying that a 3,000pt force of Wolves can't be fielded? Because as I mentioned above I can get enough units to fulfill the requirements of a Battle Company with just over 1,700pts leaving me 300pts to add weapons and wargear and another 1,000pts for other stuff (ie. Preds, Dreads, Rune Priests, WG Termis, etc...).

- "In fact, it is likely that most Wolf Lords will laugh their beards off if you sugest that they use Codex Astartes tactics." - Ok, I'm not suggesting we use Combat Tactics, we have Counter-attack and Acute Vision. But what does that have to do with a Space Wolves force composed as listed above and wether or not they could be fielded that way? Wolves are not Chaos, they don't just run willy-nilly all over the battlefield without cover, friendly fire support, and backup.

[Grey Mage]

I think a new datasheet would be a better option, but in a more RAW!!! group the battle company would be an easier sell.

[dswanick]

Agreed, as my group is very open to player-made datasheets and formations. However, in those groups that are not I'm wondering why anyone would further argue that this approach is "anti-Wolfy".

[Wysten]

While individal Wolf Lords are very proud, I don't see what would stop them working together. The noteable thing however compares each company to a Chapter in it's own right in terms of organisation, these companys are probably fairly interinal meaning that working with another wolf lord would be a sign of weakness, that one Great Company could not get the job right. Each company has tools for a range of jobs, hence the need to intermingle is reduced.

 

That being said, theres a fair bit to suggest some great companys do work together. They cast Logan in the commanding role who often assigns Kracken to boarding actiongs, Ragnar to drop pod assualts and Erik to more subtle missions (what? Space Marines do subtle? HERESY! XD) which probably does support that great companys do work together, though a majority of the battles in the history indicate that they don't, mostly singlure wolf lords.

 

So really it depends, I find it highly unlikely that 5 wolf lords would join up, but I imagine a pair and a few champions would be possible. But as far as the rules go, it could be a simple copy and paste.

[dswanick]

@Wystern - what you describe is a good argument against the Masters of the Chapter Formation. But what confuses me is some peoples distaste for the Battle Company Formation being applied to Space Wolves. I understand what you're saying about Wolf Lords not working together - but one "Battle Company" could easily be just the troops from one Lords force. I don't see anything which indicates that a single Wolf Lord doesn't have enough of the above listed units if the situation called for throwing in everything he has. The list I posted above consists of less than 100 models, and each Great Company is generally accepted to number several hundred brothers.

[Wysten]

@Wystern - what you describe is a good argument against the Masters of the Chapter Formation. But what confuses me is some peoples distaste for the Battle Company Formation being applied to Space Wolves. I understand what you're saying about Wolf Lords not working together - but one "Battle Company" could easily be just the troops from one Lords force. I don't see anything which indicates that a single Wolf Lord doesn't have enough of the above listed units if the situation called for throwing in everything he has. The list I posted above consists of less than 100 models, and each Great Company is generally accepted to number several hundred brothers.

 

 

Ohhh, the space wolves should be able to benfit from battle company as normal. Space Wolves of all marines should know the value of levying a entire companys strength in battle. If they need to use their full company to do something, they will. Theres no reason why they can't do that.

 

The force organisation chart only shows for a typical battle, but since their companys are generally somewhat larger, they should be able to meet the chariteria anyways.

[pwrserge]

While I agree that the space wolves could field the component units, it is hard to believe that the space wolves would practice the combined arms tactics necessary to use this force mix. Think of it this way.

 

If you hand all the equipment necessary to form a USMC infantry battalion to a US Army ranger unit, they may be able to fill the bodies, but they would not be able to perform an amphibious assault as well as the USMC unit. They simply don't train for it.

 

As I mentioned in the original thread, Space Wolves simply lack the experience with Codex Astartes tactics which are represented by this formation.

[dswanick]

While I agree that the space wolves could field the component units, it is hard to believe that the space wolves would practice the combined arms tactics necessary to use this force mix. Think of it this way.

 

If you hand all the equipment necessary to form a USMC infantry battalion to a US Army ranger unit, they may be able to fill the bodies, but they would not be able to perform an amphibious assault as well as the USMC unit. They simply don't train for it.

 

As I mentioned in the original thread, Space Wolves simply lack the experience with Codex Astartes tactics which are represented by this formation.

And I still have no idea what you mean by "Codex Astartes tactics" in this context. Are you saying that the two Longfang packs wouldn't provide fire-support to cover the Grey Hunter packs? Are you suggesting that the two Skyclaw packs wouldn't use their jumppacks to bypass the enemy front line in order to assault a rear-area asset? Are you saying that each Grey Hunter pack will just go runnning off willy-nilly and not take and hold the objectives assigned to them by the over-all battlefield commander? If I field the necessary 6/2/2 how does it matter if I'm playing Space Marines or Space Wolves? Can you give me an actual 40k/Apocalypse example or at least describe what "Codex Astartes tactics" you're referring to?

[Sturm Moonwolf]

My group allows a Space Wolf Battle Company, it's not a big deal. We all seem to be pretty generous when it comes to formations anyways. And I think that is in the spirit of Apocalypse. The expansion is by no means meant to be some kind of balanced tournament format, just an opportunity to field everything you have. Most people I know have some kind of personal fluff pertaining to why they have a particular formation and that is satisfying enough. The bottom line is to have fun and play outside the box every now and then.

[Grey Mage]

While I agree that the space wolves could field the component units, it is hard to believe that the space wolves would practice the combined arms tactics necessary to use this force mix. Think of it this way.

 

If you hand all the equipment necessary to form a USMC infantry battalion to a US Army ranger unit, they may be able to fill the bodies, but they would not be able to perform an amphibious assault as well as the USMC unit. They simply don't train for it.

 

As I mentioned in the original thread, Space Wolves simply lack the experience with Codex Astartes tactics which are represented by this formation.

The Battle Company is just a collection of units like most others, save it grants three abilities:

 

1) Orbital Bombardment- arguably more fitting to a great company as each has its own ship from wich it bases its operations and from wich it can call upon support.

 

2) Hold at all costs- Bloodclaws, unlike assault marines, are normally scoring anyways.... extending this courtesy to long fangs *the MOST experianced in the force, as opposed to devis being the least* makes alot more sense- if anyone knows what that strange button does, its the long fangs.

 

3) Careful planning- A great company works as a self contained unit in many ways, these boys have trained hard on working as a pack- their tactics are synced and so they can better call upon the timetables to determine where exactly their reinforcements are entering.

[dragon950]

When I've used the battle company before for my wolves I've done 4 Blood Claws/4 Grey Hunters/2 Long Fangs with Masters of the Chapter, had Logan/Ragnar/3 other Wolf Lords . It did me very well till a Plague Tower rolled out and killed 2 of my Grey Hunters squads and then 2 squads of Howling Banshies got the rest of my Grey Hunters. But the rest of my force tore up chaos terminators, defilers, Plague Marines, Chaos Squads, Khorne Berzerkers, the squads of banshies and made the tower usless.

 

It was a big 5 on 5 game with each person having to fight their opponent first before going to the rest of the board. May not have won my board but I made sure that my opponent wasn't going to do anything else.

[mcbeaty]

in reply to wolf lords not working together.in one of the ragnar books the chapter comes together to go to garm their under the command of logan. berek, sigrid, grimblood ,redmaw and stormforge form a first wavewhile some are left to form a second wave.so i count a chapter master 5 lords and who knows how many in the second wave.

[Wysten]

in reply to wolf lords not working together.in one of the ragnar books the chapter comes together to go to garm their under the command of logan. berek, sigrid, grimblood ,redmaw and stormforge form a first wavewhile some are left to form a second wave.so i count a chapter master 5 lords and who knows how many in the second wave.

 

Ahhh. Fair enough. I've not read any of the books yet, so I am just going by the codex and probably could do with a more informed opinon on fluff. Heheh.

[the jeske]

fluff wise it should work like this . IF the basic cost [pre upgrades] for the SW company is at least the same as the cost of the cost of the basic [again pre upgrades] sm company it should fly. SW G companies are different some are full of LF others are full of BC , the balance of the formation should be the cost of the units and not the fact if LF should or shouldnt be taken in 10 man squads.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I see no reason the Battle Company wouldn't work with Space Wolves. The stratagems would apply to both the battle company and the great company, perhaps even more so to the great company. Grey Mage pretty much states all my points.

[wolfpack]

I don't know a wolf lord yet to turn down a good fight..or any fight for that matter...heck they argue about who's gonna take the fight...besides we are talkin about Apoc here...who's to say that the entire chapter didn't deicde to move on a battle field...when a company goes to battle elements from the Great Wolf's own company are often sent in support roles...i.e...WP, RP, Dreads...and as the dex says...each company has it's own support...so armor and trans would not be a problem either...

 

IMHO...if you are playing an Apoc battle and fielding a great company...you pretty much have ALL the SM special formations from the Apocs rules covered...as has been said...even at minimums for each Apoc formation there would be more than enough...

[Brother Nathan]

i would double cover yourself. ie hvae base cost the same as the codex battle company, and the models count at least the same. so aim for around 60 greys, and 20 long fangs(maby count your vetrans in that?) the 2 assault squads( but weither you use blood claws or sky claws? id try for both to be sure...)and to be fair whos likely not to have those in apoc anyway if they are looking to feild such a formation. i know apocs not as strict as normal 40k but i wouldnt want to feel i cheated my opponents. then again draw up what you think a great copany should at least be and come up with a data sheet along the same lines. thogh great companys are supposed to be bigger so youd prob want more models, which will cost more, but youll gain more benifit...

[wolfpack]

My current great company is 14 squads strong with another 8 squads from my second (WIP) not including support...right around 10K...a good all around Apoc force...15K if I use both companies as they stand now