Assassin Idea

[Inquisitor =D=]

I just had an idea strike my head, and I wanted some thoughts to it.

 

List would run like this...

 

Inquisitor Lord, psychic hood, Psycannon

+ 3 Heavy Bolter servitors

+ Sage

+ Combi-plasma Alcolytes

 

(heres the kicker)

3x Death Cult assassins

3x Death Cult assassins

3x Death Cult assassins

 

PAGK squad (possibly w/ psycannons)

 

PAGK squad (possibly w/ psycannons)

 

 

I haven't finished it obviously let alone test it out. But really, whats the viability of this? Since the assassins operate independently of each other this gives you a possible 9 counter assault/ speed bump units. Could buy your Gun-line some time to reposition for another round of fire. Ideas?

 

 

*LIGHTNING STRIKES TWICE*

 

Another idea for your PAGKs. When expecting a charge, spread your GK's into a thin line. This way when you receive the charge you can use the Pile-In move to encircle the opposing squad, maximizing your attacks. Nutty I know but couldn't it work?

 

See this is why I shouldn't browse tactical forums before lunch....

 

=]D[=

[Eddie Orlock]

It is generally postulated that the nine assasins are nine easy kill points in a third of games and this disuades most players.

 

W.R.T. your other 'tactic', I doubt you'll ever find your self in a position where you Knights will have to pile into a combat lattice more than four deep, and knights in the fourth layer will be just within two inches of the front rank and able to attack unimpeded. The advantage to being in a line is generally one of blast marker mitigation, and such position could indeed prevent knights from the far end contributing to an assault if the unit is engaged at one extreem end.

[melvinmcsnatch]

It would work better with a fleet unit who could get into position before the charge, but I don't think there's enough movement or models to completely invaginate a medium to large sized squad. But if you ever do, let your opponent know he's been invaginated, he won't think it's wierd - I promise.

[number6]

Your list is predicated on the idea that DCAs can actually hurt things in assault. If we're talking Guardsmen or basic Marines, OK, they can get in a couple of kills on the charge.

 

But otherwise, they are incredibly fragile and die to sneezes. Honestly, if I was facing your army, I wouldn't even bother worrying about the DCAs and just focus on the rest of your army. Firstly, I'm all mech'd up, and so far there isn't a darn thing your list could do to my army. ^_^ Secondly, as I stated, you greatly overestimate the power of DCAs. Even if I'm playing my Tau or my Tyranids, there just isn't anything they could do to me that I fear.

[Gentlemanloser]

That.

 

DCA cost the same as a 'nilla Termy, and aren't as killy, nor as durable.

 

That should be the answer in itself.

[Inquisitor Fox]

As a defender of DCA's and someone that still uses them in my own lists, I have to sorta take a middle opinion. I don't think the idea of 9 of them en masse supporting two PAGK squads is gonna work quite the way you want. I tend to take 1 to 3 (I own 6) depending on points left after my "important" things (with a Witch Hunters army mind, so not as many termies or the like for me), and then use them in one of two roles.

 

First, advance them in a "unit" of two or three assassins moving together towards a smaller target (combat squad size or smaller) of MEQ equivalents or so. On the charge they're 3 or 4 attacks each, good for about 1 or 2 kills per assassin. After that they'll whittle it down. Note, in a points exchange you'll probably lose, but it's selective targets, not just point for point targetting.

 

The other role is as counter-charge individuals to assist embattled Battle Sister squads or ISTs. I advance them near and with my other units to help out on the 2nd and further rounds of combat (after the charger has used up his charge bonus and I'm still there). It's nice to get some power weapon attacks tossed into my otherwise weak close combat army.

 

They either get lots of fire disproportionate to their size (it's fun having 3 next to each other in what appears to be coherency, having someone say "I shoot your assassins" then the pause after I ask them "Which individual assassin do you chose to target?"), or no fire at all. So they're a nice shield for the other units, but as pointed out this doesn't work too well in a kill points mission.

 

I imagine more of the DH side of the OI is going to rather take a TAGK instead, which point for point is probably a better deal.

[Inquisitor =D=]

Well Lady Inquisitor, thank you for providing a creative thought to the thread. :tu:

 

This does however create two more questions from me.

1) Why do you all say it'd be terrible to use in a kill point game? Three assassins they may be but they are One unit.

 

2) What could I expect for returns if I were to use these guys as counter assault units against say... death guard or Nids?

 

=]D[=

[Inquisitor Fox]

They are three separate units that occupy one slot of the Force Org chart, like say, 0-5 Commissars are 0-5 units that do not take up an HQ choice, or a Command Squad is a unit that does not occupy an additional Force Org slot and is still worth a Kill Point. Kinda stinks, but them's the breaks.

 

Lesse.. Their WS means hitting on 3s, 4 attacks on the charge, 2.6667 hits, strength space Marine.

 

So 1/3 of those wound a Nurgle Marine, 0.8888 dead Nurgle Marines (power weapons) per DCA.

 

If we're attacking a T4 model, that's 1.3333 dead somethings per DCA.

 

If we're attacking a T3 model, that's 1.7779 dead somethings per DCA.

 

All of this happens on Init 5 though, which is a good thing. Not really enough to win a combat by themselves, but those wounds add up if you're supporting another unit a bit better than if you're trying to carry the combat yourself. They do significantly better against T3 targets, and do respectable against Marines (though much more expensive than their targets, however 3 DCA's can handle a combat squad worth of Marines).

[Inquisitor =D=]

:P Hmmm.... I see what your saying.

 

I still may give this a try though...

 

 

Well... what could you tell me about the Eversor? What returns could I expect given the same scenarios?

 

=]D[=

[Gentlemanloser]

He will be shot before he can assault anyone.

[Eddie Orlock]

He will be shot before he can assault anyone.

Iff you can find terrain to let you use the rule letting you infiltrait just outside 12" if they can't see him he can pull a first turn charge. Then it's a matter of getting enough wounds to slay his target before he gets murdered. If you're going second you could send him to outflank and have a harraser model come in from the side and attempt to psych your opponent from the edges of the table.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Here's the thing to think about too... it's not so much number of kills that make assassins useful. It's WHAT you kill with them. A DCA has the same odds of inflicting wounds upon a basic marine as he does upon a vanguard veteran, or sternguard veteran, or a devastator with special weapon. Choice of target is paramount. They're a waste to throw against a tactical squad (unless you need that squad dead for other reasons), but if you're throwing them against say, 30 point per man models due to upgrades or something it's a different story.

 

Assassins are not the sledgehammer of the Inquisition that an orbital bombardment or Exterminatus is, rather they are a scalpel used against select targets. If you pick the right targets and deployment via infiltrate they can definitely pay for themselves, but the wrong targets end up getting your DCA's killed without them making much of a dent point-wise against the enemy.

[Eltnot]

I assume that list is 750 - 1000 points in size.

Given that amount of points, an opponent can take quite a few Rhino's/Razorbacks/Chimera/Wave Serpents/Raiders which your army will struggle to hurt. The end result is that you'll have nine (probably very quickly less) or so DCA's feebly trying to scratch the paint of said vehicles.

 

Here's what is likely to happen:

The vehicle's shooting will likely kill a DCA.

The squad that gets out of the vehicle is likely to kill another.

The third DCA charges in, kills a model or two and then gets smothered under attacks.

 

If you bunch them all up, the enemy can just move away for a turn or two whilst further away units whittle them down and then the army repeats the above process.

 

DCA's were reasonable in fourth edition due to the way combat worked and the lack of prevalence of mech. This is not the case in fifth edition and to top it off, as others have said, that's a lot of easy kill points.

[Inquisitor =D=]

:P <_< <_< "I find your lack of faith disturbing" B) ^_^ -_-

 

Really though, I'm not gonna throw these guys at the first tactical squad that comes my way. Just as the assassin would I'm gonna pick the juiciest target I can.

 

Had another thought today....

 

Inquisitor Lord, power weapon, Combi-Melta, psychic hood

+ 3x Multi-Melta Servitors

+ 3x Alcolytes w/ combi-melta

+ Sage

+ Familiar

+ Mystic

Wrap it all up in a Land Raider or GK LRC!

 

Lot of melta hurt no?

 

=]D[=

[number6]

Lot of melta hurt no?

Yes, but it's also an "all eggs in one very big and very expensive basket" solution. It's a linchpin unit. Nullify the linchpin, and you're up a creek without a paddle.

 

Meltas are great. Meltas are awesome. The DH army must carry plenty of melta.

 

But a big linchpin delivery system is not the answer. Especially one where I have to ask: how will you ever get to use those multi-melta servitors? There are no firing points for them to use! And with (counts meltas) SEVEN melta weapons in just one unit, I have to ask ... how dead does a vehicle need to be before it is dead enough?! :verymad: I think the term "overkill" applies here. And then some.

 

Furthermore, how well do land raiders survive melta hits? Not well.

So how will you prevent opponents from throwing away a cheapie melta sacrificial unit to slag your raider and strand your uber-expensive unit? You can't.

 

Instead of burying all those points in a "hail mary, I sure hope this works" unit, get several cheap but dependable units instead. That way you have more toys to play with, more tools at your disposal, and significant redundancy, allowing you to lose multiple units but still "get the job done".

 

Your proposed unit costs 559 pts! (Assuming smoke on the LRC.) Crikey! You'd be better off getting:

 

4x 5 ISTs w/2 meltas, all in Rhinos w/extra armour and smoke, for a grand total of 512 pts. 47 pts to spare. :ermm:

 

8 melta weapons -- which can be fired out of firing points -- in 4 different, redundant units. That's 4 vehicles, 4 units your opponent has to deal with instead of just one. It's both a helluva lot more powerful and flexible for you, but also a helluva lot more difficult for your opponent to defend against.

[Eltnot]

4x 5 ISTs w/2 meltas, all in Rhinos w/extra armour and smoke, for a grand total of 512 pts. 47 pts to spare. :D

 

8 melta weapons -- which can be fired out of firing points -- in 4 different, redundant units. That's 4 vehicles, 4 units your opponent has to deal with instead of just one. It's both a helluva lot more powerful and flexible for you, but also a helluva lot more difficult for your opponent to defend against.

And those are scoring units to boot. Only downside is that only one model may fire from the single firepoint under the pdf codex. *Shakes fist*

[Gentlemanloser]

(opening can of worms)

 

Unless you pursaude your opponent that as the Rhino counts as open topped (As you have worse than a 3+ save...), all your troops can fire from it! >:)

[Inquisitor =D=]

Lol... I know No.6. Its one hell of a waste but to be honest I was inspired by the "Island of Misfit Toys Game Challenge" over on the Bell of Lost Souls. And personally I think I'd take this for the psychological effect more than anything. If I tell my opponent that he'll be facing a unit weilding 7 Melta-weapons, he's gonna choke on his soda and freak to kill it. As a Side note I was thinking of throwing this in a MC's face to watch my opponent twich.

If the last tournament I was at here in Alaska shows me anything, we are pretty far from the normal metagame. In 2 of the 3 games I played BOTH my raiders made it to turn 4 and were downed by a powerfist termi and oblits... No melta, no melta delivery boy. Strangely there weren't any of those units at the tourney. Instead I faced a lot of MCs and more flamers than you can shake a stick at. Woulda made the Salamanders jealous... If the flamers weren't being held by chaos marines that is...

 

=]D[=

 

(well... off to work with me...)

[number6]

If the last tournament I was at here in Alaska shows me anything, we are pretty far from the normal metagame. In 2 of the 3 games I played BOTH my raiders made it to turn 4 and were downed by a powerfist termi and oblits... No melta, no melta delivery boy. Strangely there weren't any of those units at the tourney. Instead I faced a lot of MCs and more flamers than you can shake a stick at. Woulda made the Salamanders jealous... If the flamers weren't being held by chaos marines that is...

I don't understand what "metagame" has to do with anything. Isn't using small melta delivery units -- just building armies out of small pieces -- kind of ... obvious? ;)

 

I mean, surely people even in Alaska can expect that Marine players (GKs included) might put land raiders onto the table? Wouldn't they therefore always include units to counter that?

 

Ow. My head hurts....

[Eltnot]

(opening can of worms)

 

Unless you pursaude your opponent that as the Rhino counts as open topped (As you have worse than a 3+ save...), all your troops can fire from it! >

It counts as an open topped vehicle in the ENEMY'S shooting phase, not yours.

 

(Can of worms closed.)

[Inquisitor =D=]

I don't understand what "metagame" has to do with anything. Isn't using small melta delivery units -- just building armies out of small pieces -- kind of ... obvious? :D

 

I mean, surely people even in Alaska can expect that Marine players (GKs included) might put land raiders onto the table? Wouldn't they therefore always include units to counter that?

 

Ow. My head hurts....

 

Sorry No.6, I thought that's what the metagame was... The general curve that people seem to follow? Example; 5th Ed. vehicle damage tables created the want for a TON of meltaguns. So every army either had them or lots of tanks. Maybe I misinterpreted it at some point.

 

And to answer your question, I think they were substituting the meltas with Lascannons. The first chaos army I faced only had a predator with triple-las, the second had 6 oblits. But not a single melta-gun...

 

=]D[=

[the jeske]

And to answer your question, I think they were substituting the meltas with Lascannons. The first chaos army I faced only had a predator with triple-las, the second had 6 oblits. But not a single melta-gun...

puting how ineffcient tri las preds are in chaos armies , what kind of an army was it ? because if it was a 1ksons or EC or WE build then the only reasone why you didnt see any meltas is because they cant take them . If anyone takes csm or pms they do spam melta.

just like IG does , just like meq run Attack bikes , drop dreads , sterngaurds or how eldar take fire dragons etc etc etc.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I played against 9 Assassins once. Wrapped 4 of them in combat with a big squad of Marines, Dante and a squad of sisters. Beat the sisters to a pulp and then watched as the other had to take like 6 Fearless saves on each assassin. <3 Not to say that they are bad just there are some things that hurt them....

 

 

 

@#6 The meta game may be different because I imagine there arent as many major tournies easily accessible to them. They havent had to face rediculous lists and havent had to start developing strategies against them. They are still at the bottom of the learning curve if you will.

[number6]

@#6 The meta game may be different because I imagine there arent as many major tournies easily accessible to them. They havent had to face rediculous lists and havent had to start developing strategies against them. They are still at the bottom of the learning curve if you will.

Again, I don't know that tourneys or "ridiculous lists" have anything to do with anything.

 

I think the term "metagame" is being improperly used here. The only "meta" element that applies is actually knowing what other codexes not your own contain. That is, if you don't play Marines, it behooves you to at least know what Marine players have access to. You can't expect to be good at any game and not have at least a rudimentary understanding of all the rules! :D I don't consider "know the rules of the game" to be "metagaming". There is no game without the rules! That's a precondition of playing.

 

And if you do play Marines -- even Chaos Marines -- then there really is no excuse for not understanding that land raiders might appear on the table and your army needs to have an answer for that.

 

Land raiders are just the example I'm picking on. But it's just a single example of the wider issue I was trying to address. What really got me started was Inquisitor =D='s LOL-unit. Because I always assumed that it would be obvious to anybody who's played the game more than a dozen times that it's always more efficient (and more powerful) to take multiples of smaller utility units than to take fewer, larger hammer or swiss-army units.

 

Then again, maybe that's just the Unix programmer in me coming out. ^_^ Unix being predicated from top to bottom on the idea that you get things done by cleverly combining many small, mono-tasked utilities together to get one very complex thing done.

 

Anyway, even if you're not a Unix programmer, I'm here to tell you: that philosophy definitely applies to wargaming. B)

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Agreed but I suppose if you play in a local area and never see a land raider or see one only rarely it might not occur to you that infact land raiders are really quite good or difficult to take out without tons of melta. Or if everyone is walk about with big units whacking each other over the head with them that might also similarly become a trend. A local 'meta' if you will. if for example every local marine player doesnt take any Terminators. Coming up with a way to deal with them might not ever really become a concern. Similarly if you had never seen anyone use a drop pod before it might not be on your radar as a potentially devastating method of deployment. I know in my local area no one had ever seen orks taken outside of a horde army so When I showed up with a Dread Bash List it took everyone a good few months to figure out what was going on and come up with some basic tenants to fighting it.