Heresy Era Wolves vs. Current Chapter Wolves

[MaveriK]

SPOILER ALERT!

‘Remembering is all that counts. If you remember something, you can do it again. Or not do it again.’ ‘You learn?’ ‘It’s learning,’ Skarssen nodded. ‘If you can tell something as an account, you know it.’ ‘And accounts are how we don’t forget the dead,’ put in Varangr. ‘That too,’ said Skarssen. ‘The dead?’ asked Hawser. ‘They get lonely if we forget them. No man should be lonely and forgotten by his comrades, even if he’s a wight and gone away to the dark and the Underverse.’

 

 

Having read Prospero Burns about a week ago, I can't help but feel that we are somewhat a little-bit more tamed compared to the warriors of old. Damn you Abnett! LOL. Do you think today's Wolves of Fenris are somewhat more toned downed? than say, compared to the Wolves from the Great Crusade+Heresy? have the teachings of our Rune Priest and skjalds been lost compared to what we know from the current books, codex and fluff? or have we learned from our mistakes and changed over-time to be less of what we once were?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Yes, the point of the grimdark world is the erosion or perversion of those ideals that were behind the Great Crusade. Every Chapter is but a shadow of what it was ...

[Growler67]

Perhaps you should look at it as if we are 'less feral and more refinded and sophisticated' versus 'tame'. NOT an advocate of 'Political Correctness' just offering an opinion from a different angle. The was against the Imperiums foes has evolved and morphed over time and it would figur that the way we (and the others) prosecute battlen general has to as well to keep up wit or even ahead of the enemy. So over time we have fought in a less feral manner means to me that we are not as wildly savage and potentially reckless as we may have once been. It doesn not mean we are any less vicious against whomever we face on the batle field. We are more refined inthat we place shots rather than "spray and pray" and waste ammunition.

 

That's my take on it FWIW, YMMV. Besides, I haven't rad your "spoiler" nor Prospero yet.

[Sarapham]

Perhaps you could see it as the legion/chapter as a whole going through the stages of the individual Space Wolf.

 

Starting off as the ferocious "savages" and "executioners of the emperor" the legion could be said to have been as a Blood Claw, looking for the glory of battle and to earn his place.

 

As time progressed and experiences such as the heresy settled in the collective mind of the legion/chapter began to change slightly, mature for a lack of a better word where the fighting came to have more meaning in the defence of humanity which is the biggest "pack" of them all. This could be seen as the legion/chapter going into the Grey Hunter phase.

 

As of the present the Space Wolves have one of the most firmest beliefs in the protection of humanity, not just the Empire, which could perhaps show that the chapter as a whole has truly become long in the tooth as the end times approaches.

 

When Russ returns he will see a legion that has grown in the ways and traditions befitting the warriors of Fenris fully, from savage to warrior to guardians.

[the jeske]

pre and durning the heresy and after some time after the SW could control the were , the rage etc but this is gone now . Todays SW life is a battle and getting the upper hand over the animal inside , trying to control it . Still SW have it better then most other chapters , their aspirants are still older then the ones other chapters can make in to space marines [save maybe salamanders] . they arent less feral then they were before , they just have to control themselfs more , the whole rune/wolf priest control , their authority that lets priest stop even wolf lords from fighting is needed , otherwise SW without Russ and the slow degeneration of seed end up like the WE . specialy as they do use a lot of the same methods WE did . only the SW enhancing of the "thrill of battle" was done with farmacologic changes and with WE it was done with implants and partly lobotomisation.

[OnlyInDeath]

Perhaps you could see it as the legion/chapter as a whole going through the stages of the individual Space Wolf.

 

Starting off as the ferocious "savages" and "executioners of the emperor" the legion could be said to have been as a Blood Claw, looking for the glory of battle and to earn his place.

 

As time progressed and experiences such as the heresy settled in the collective mind of the legion/chapter began to change slightly, mature for a lack of a better word where the fighting came to have more meaning in the defence of humanity which is the biggest "pack" of them all. This could be seen as the legion/chapter going into the Grey Hunter phase.

 

As of the present the Space Wolves have one of the most firmest beliefs in the protection of humanity, not just the Empire, which could perhaps show that the chapter as a whole has truly become long in the tooth as the end times approaches.

 

When Russ returns he will see a legion that has grown in the ways and traditions befitting the warriors of Fenris fully, from savage to warrior to guardians.

 

well put, brother

[MaveriK]

Perhaps you should look at it as if we are 'less feral and more refinded and sophisticated' versus 'tame'. NOT an advocate of 'Political Correctness' just offering an opinion from a different angle. The was against the Imperiums foes has evolved and morphed over time and it would figur that the way we (and the others) prosecute battlen general has to as well to keep up wit or even ahead of the enemy. So over time we have fought in a less feral manner means to me that we are not as wildly savage and potentially reckless as we may have once been. It doesn not mean we are any less vicious against whomever we face on the batle field. We are more refined inthat we place shots rather than "spray and pray" and waste ammunition.

 

That's my take on it FWIW, YMMV. Besides, I haven't rad your "spoiler" nor Prospero yet.

 

"I recognise my failing and will be sure to correct it".. HA! I just had to throw *inside joke* that in there. :P I agree with you, and I'm not saying the wolves of today aren't as feral, or dangerous. I guess I'm just feeling a little nostalgic?! however are you implying that the wolves of yesterday weren't as tempered as the wolves of today? although the wars back then were in a larger scale, compaired to todays standards.. it was/still is war. Our teachings and our ways have not changed prior to becoming one of the Wolves. I mean to say is that, Fenrisian way has not changed and is still very much as savage.

 

So over time we have fought in a less feral manner means to me that we are not as wildly savage and potentially reckless as we may have once been. It doesn not mean we are any less vicious against whomever we face on the batle field. We are more refined inthat we place shots rather than "spray and pray" and waste ammunition.

 

pulling our punches today, will eventually best us and work against us in the end, if not already. Truth be told, the wolves of yesterday are not savage nor as reckless, as we all grew up to believe. They are more disciplined, and sophisticated. I guess once EVERYONE reads Prospero Burns, the ripple affect will start! and there will be allot of people who love the fluff, and who have played wolves since 2nd edition, such as myself! will have some adjusting to do from what Abnett has changed and added. Don't get me wrong, change is good and what Abnett changed is brilliant. I guess, I am just in that transition... :P the wolves of today is still cool and dangerous. I just think we don't dig our fangs deeper enough as we once did back in the day.

[MaveriK]

Perhaps you could see it as the legion/chapter as a whole going through the stages of the individual Space Wolf.

 

Starting off as the ferocious "savages" and "executioners of the emperor" the legion could be said to have been as a Blood Claw, looking for the glory of battle and to earn his place.

 

As time progressed and experiences such as the heresy settled in the collective mind of the legion/chapter began to change slightly, mature for a lack of a better word where the fighting came to have more meaning in the defence of humanity which is the biggest "pack" of them all. This could be seen as the legion/chapter going into the Grey Hunter phase.

 

As of the present the Space Wolves have one of the most firmest beliefs in the protection of humanity, not just the Empire, which could perhaps show that the chapter as a whole has truly become long in the tooth as the end times approaches.

 

When Russ returns he will see a legion that has grown in the ways and traditions befitting the warriors of Fenris fully, from savage to warrior to guardians.

 

True enough, spoken like a wolf. But are you implying the wolves of today do not seek the same level of glory as the wolves of yesterday have? although the legion eventually turned into a chapter.. the one thing that has stayed constant in this grim dark future.... is war. Although the circumstances are different, the actions of war are the still same.

 

I do agree that, the wolves of yesterday were fighting on a different cause, the story "wolf at the door" shows us this in detail. The First war of armageddon is a perfect example of how the wolves of today reacted to the treatment of the survivors. I dunno were I'm going with this... I'm just blah right now. Someone give me an ale! I guess I'm just missing our Wolf King.

[Sarapham]

True enough, spoken like a wolf. But are you implying the wolves of today do not seek the same level of glory as the wolves of yesterday have? although the legion eventually turned into a chapter.. the one thing that has stayed constant in this grim dark future.... is war. Although the circumstances are different, the actions of war are the still same.

 

I do agree that, the wolves of yesterday were fighting on a different cause, the story "wolf at the door" shows us this in detail. The First war of armageddon is a perfect example of how the wolves of today reacted to the treatment of the survivors. I dunno were I'm going with this... I'm just blah right now. Someone give me an ale! I guess I'm just missing our Wolf King.

 

 

No I dont mean to imply that, however where in the past perhaps glory was an reward of its own, the glory we hunt now is more firmly rooted in the "Why" of fighting, rather than the "How". For example in the new codex there is the mention of a few Grey Hunters staying behind to help evacuate an imperial settlement, The battle for Montberg Spaceport. Only six GH out of two full squads survive, just barely able to hold off the nids as the civilans flee.

 

This was technicaly a military loss, but glory was still to be had because of the rescue of all those civilians and those six GH got promoted to Wolf Guard. While Imperial High Command viewed it as both a loss as well as disobeying orders, us Wolves knows what really matters in this dark galaxy.. and that is the greatest glory of them all.

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

Personally, I don't see a vast gulf of difference between pre-heresy and post-heresy wolves. There are differences, don't get me wrong, but to me it feels more like we've just always adapted to the times. The foundation that was laid down millenia ago has simply been built upon century by century and any changes in the Imperium have left their mark on that growth.

 

A sapling grows into a tree, and when you cut it down you can look at the rings of growth and tell such things as what the weather was like in that time period. When you look at all that and see how it changed the tree, you can still step back and see the big picture...the tiny sapling, despite whatever it went through over the years, grew to become what it was always meant to be. A pear sapling didn't grow into an apple tree, so to speak.

 

That's just my view.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I don't know how much discussion we can have until everyone has read "Prospero Burns" which undoubtedly will be a strong source of how sw's behave pre-heresy. And if we include "Prospero Burns" the whole thread needs a spoiler warning.

 

 

Having read P.burns my opinion is that our purpose changed as many astartes from a crusading force vs a protection force. Further change occurred with end of the heresy where the all father no longer is providing direct orders to Russ. (this will mean more to you if you read "Prospero burns")

[Inquisitor Orion]

Lots of good points. Read them fast. I did not see the key point though. Todays Wolves are not lead by Russ. Such a presence would probably bring out the feral in even Ultra Marines.

[Brother Nathan]

Personal opinion. of course wolves arnt the same as when russ was around. compleately different ball game being led by a primarch compared to being lead by a space marine no matter how venerable etc... think every marine wanted to prove them selves more when theres a primarch around... what chapter is the same since the herasy too

[Vash113]

Having read Prospero Burns about a week ago, I can't help but feel that we are somewhat a little-bit more tamed compared to the warriors of old. Damn you Abnett! LOL. Do you think today's Wolves of Fenris are somewhat more toned downed? than say, compared to the Wolves from the Great Crusade+Heresy? have the teachings of our Rune Priest and skjalds been lost compared to what we know from the current books, codex and fluff? or have we learned from our mistakes and changed over-time to be less of what we once were?

 

What would make you think the Wolves are really any different now? Fluff wise the Imperium is a very different place, but the Chapter still has Bjorn, a direct line back to the Crusade-era and a more lasting source of information than most Chapters or Imperial Organizations in general can boast. I don't really think the Space Wolves have gotten any softer, if anything I might say the Wolves have become even more idealistic and hard-line about certain things.

 

Personally, I don't see a vast gulf of difference between pre-heresy and post-heresy wolves. There are differences, don't get me wrong, but to me it feels more like we've just always adapted to the times. The foundation that was laid down millenia ago has simply been built upon century by century and any changes in the Imperium have left their mark on that growth.

 

A sapling grows into a tree, and when you cut it down you can look at the rings of growth and tell such things as what the weather was like in that time period. When you look at all that and see how it changed the tree, you can still step back and see the big picture...the tiny sapling, despite whatever it went through over the years, grew to become what it was always meant to be. A pear sapling didn't grow into an apple tree, so to speak.

 

That's just my view.

 

Well said and a good point.

[Wysten]

Personal opinion. of course wolves arnt the same as when russ was around. compleately different ball game being led by a primarch compared to being lead by a space marine no matter how venerable etc... think every marine wanted to prove them selves more when theres a primarch around... what chapter is the same since the herasy too

Very true. A primarch is meant to be a incalulateable genius, capable of making the men under his command exemplify their skills to his tactical needs. I imagine Wolves under Russ's command would match up to him to a key, even the Terrans in his force were likely to feel his influence to make them as mono cultured as possible due to his influence.

 

Great wolves are simlarily Heroic, but they lack the pressence their primarch had, with their formations it meant that they would diffiencate from what Russ once did or even their opinion. The fact that companys do leave permently probably indicates that the Great Wolf only holds control as long as the Wolves under him allow him to and often hugely diffiencate themselves company to company.

 

 

That being said, their maturity as a defender rather then libaritor/destroyer definately helped.

[MonSTeR]

I honestly believe that it's just the writing style of the author, trying to sell books. GW have this brief of recycling their own background material, keeping it ever moving to keep players intereted and subtley changing things with each iteration of the game.

 

Should GW choose to give me a suitable advance, I'll write you a "contemporary" SW book describing tales the likes of which even Russ himself would be stunned at! :)

 

Remember when Ragnar Blackmane had WS8? And our blood claws has WS5?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The Great Crusade was a time of exploration and conquest, each campaighn was a step into the unknown and unknowable. This molded and forged the legion and it's ways.

 

The 41st Millenium is no longer a time of conquest, it'sa time of defense, a time of siege. The Astartes are liberating worlds fallen to the enemy, spear heading campaighns to retake lost ground or hold what is at risk. This will mold and forge the chapter in different ways.