sisters of battle in a chapter

[lothbrok]

I was wondering if it could be possible for a space marine chapter to maintain a small number of female warriors. now im not saying they're space marines but that their sort of an auxiallary force that acts like a home guard guarding the fortress monastrery and or selecting new recuits for the chapter sort of like norse valkyries. is this a good idea or is it far to close to being plain out rediculous and best left alone.

[Crusader-Brother Rigal]

Personally I like the concept. However, from my current knowledge of 40k fluff I'm going to say its unlikely.

[SecretStamos]

Their children would be born with a 3+ save.

[Ecritter]

Great idea ... read my Sons of Pyron for reference. :P

 

EDIT: And for information, you could have just edited the original post and changed the title rather then start a new one right after it.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

At first I thought "female marines! Not again!", but then I actually read it. I'd say that's definitely possible. But don't have too many. Then we get into the whole balance of power thing. There's a reason most chapters don't have Guard armies at their disposal.

[Eddie Orlock]

There's a reason most chapters don't have Guard armies at their disposal.

As I understand it, it's because Marines make terrible generals for non-super human forces. They forget that guardsment can't go for weeks without sleep, live off rocks, breath toxic atmospheres, and fearlessly charge into a hail of small arms fire like they can.

[Apothete]

As I understand it, it's because Marines make terrible generals for non-super human forces. They forget that guardsment can't go for weeks without sleep, live off rocks, breath toxic atmospheres, and fearlessly charge into a hail of small arms fire like they can.

 

Then your understanding is incorrect, or at least incomplete.

 

While a thoughtless or overly haughty Astartes commander might in fact ask too much of a mere mortal under his command, the primary reason that the Astartes do not have large forces of more conventional military might is the separation of powers decreed after the Horus Heresy. Before the civil war brought about during that time period, the Legions commanded not only their Brothers, but Imperial Army and Navy units acting in concerted plans that fell under the auspice of the senior Marine commander. The Expeditionary Fleets are prime examples of this phenomena and relics of it can be found in the structure and disposition of some of the First and Second Founding Chapters - the Ultramarines have their own PDF and naval forces in and around Ultramar, the Space Wolves maintain naval assets beyond what is normally allowed a Chapter, as do the Dark Angels, and so on.

 

The reasoning behind this break in authority is clear. No one man, no matter his dedication or duration of service, should command that kind of power ever again. Horus Lupercal was the Warmaster, the favored son of the Emperor, and very nearly the regent of his burgeoning Empire, yet even he fell to the siren call of the Ruinous Powers.

[Eddie Orlock]

Then your understanding is incorrect, or at least incomplete.

Well, all that other stuff, that I was previously aware of but neglected to mention for comdeic effect, also plays a bit of a role too, but really, not even small detachments are seconded 'cause marines are bad at it in the modern era. A lack of practice likely brought about by complying with the extant statute. In the cases where many branches of the Imperium fight under common banner, supreme command is often assigned to an ordinary mortal for more than just political reasons.

 

I seem to recall that many chapters maintain what on other worlds would be the equivilant of a PDF where possible if only mostly as an expediance.

 

I'll now await argumentative 'clarification' on some nuance that someone feels I've errd in.

[Apothete]

Well, all that other stuff, that I was previously aware of but neglected to mention for comdeic effect, also plays a bit of a role too, but really, not even small detachments are seconded 'cause marines are bad at it in the modern era.

 

Except that they are, if the Marines feel that such detachments are necessary to their mission. Alternatively, they're disregarded, expended, or even outright killed as the Astartes feel may be necessary or in keeping with their current mission.

 

There's basically no evidence that an Astartes is not assigned to command for any reason other than that they often operate outside of the normal chain, except when they decide that it might be necessary to take over. Aside from the previously suggested one, that is...

 

I seem to recall that many chapters maintain what on other worlds would be the equivilant of a PDF where possible if only mostly as an expediance.

 

It could be argued, but there's no real concrete answer anywhere but in regards to certain longstanding Chapters. Do the Chapter Serfs really count as a PDF? If not, where do the soldiers come from and why even have them when you have the resources of an Astartes Chapter to command?

 

I'll now await argumentative 'clarification' on some nuance that someone feels I've errd in.

 

Simmer down, there wasn't any personal attack made against you.

 

I used your joke to make a point that others may not have understood, though apparently in a way that made you feel like you were being lectured unnecessarily. Discussion ensued. Happy days are here again.

[soddinnutter]

If one of the more puritan marine chapter has fought for many generations alongside a convent of the Adepta Sororitas then there may be a great deal of trust and mutual respect between the two.

 

If the Fortress or the Shrine gets nuked into a puddle of molten glass then it may be practical for the survival of the mutually beneficial arrangement (and the holy order on the arse kicked end of this incident) for them to share facilities for a time until a new home can be found.

 

If finding a new home takes too long they may find that they are now thinking of where they are as home and be reluctant to leave.

 

Eventually, after about 500 years, neither force can quite imagine a future without the security of the other watching their back.

 

But for this to be more likely the Chapter would have to be some of the children of Vulkan, as they seem to be the only marines who get along with humanity to any real degree.

 

As StGene said in your other thread the: male children, as it is never stated that the Sisters are celibate, would be all but beyond doubt in terms of purity. There could also be shadowy rumors that the Chapter Master and Mother Superior have initiated a mild form of the eugenics program in terms of recruitment.

[NightrawenII]

I was wondering if it could be possible for a space marine chapter to maintain a small number of female warriors. now im not saying they're space marines but that their sort of an auxiallary force that acts like a home guard guarding the fortress monastrery and or selecting new recuits for the chapter sort of like norse valkyries. is this a good idea or is it far to close to being plain out rediculous and best left alone.

Since Chapters maintain a whole lot of the so-called Serfs... Yes, it's possible if there is plausible explanation for female warriors.

 

The thing is, the Serfs don't fight at the side of their Astartes masters, bar the naval battles or defending the Homeworld. And the Astartes worlds are feral or feudal in nature, an unlikely environment for female warriors.

 

If one of the more puritan marine chapter has fought for many generations alongside a convent of the Adepta Sororitas then there may be a great deal of trust and mutual respect between the two.

Yes and No.

The interaction between these organisation is... cold at best.

The Chapter Cults and the presence of psykers in their ranks is hard to accept for any Battle Sister.

[soddinnutter]

And the Astartes worlds are feral or feudal in nature, an unlikely environment for female warriors.

 

Homeworld of Crimson fist is Agriworld

Homeworld of Ultramarines is Civilised world

Homeworld of Iron Hnads is a technologically competent mining world

Imperial Fists and Black Tempelars recruit from everywhere, Including Holy Terra and Necromunda which are Hive Worlds.

 

And in any case 'Feudal' is a political structure.

 

The Chapter Cults and the presence of psykers in their ranks is hard to accept for any Battle Sister.

 

Not all chapters recruit psykers. Chapter Cult is more of a problem. Can't see the Sister saying "let's agree to disagree". But the Space Marines could also point out that they are the grandchildren of the Emperor and then they could say "let's agree to disagree".

 

In the book Helsreach the leader of the Sisters of Battle seemed mildly amused with the astartes more than angered.

[CaptGarro]

This is relevant to my interests, I might be able to field my two SoB models as company vets or something...

[NightrawenII]

And the Astartes worlds are feral or feudal in nature, an unlikely environment for female warriors.

Homeworld of Crimson fist is Agriworld

Homeworld of Ultramarines is Civilised world

Homeworld of Iron Hnads is a technologically competent mining world

Imperial Fists and Black Tempelars recruit from everywhere, Including Holy Terra and Necromunda which are Hive Worlds.

Hmm, I forgot to add "mostly" before that. :cuss

 

Btw, the Crimson Fists draw recruits from the feral world of Blackwater, not from the Rynn's World.

 

And in any case 'Feudal' is a political structure.

That's true, but How many Warladies do you know?

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

not even small detachments are seconded 'cause marines are bad at it in the modern era.

 

I don't know where you're getting your information my friend, but I haven't read anything like this, bar one throwaway quote about some pre-heresy marines pushing their non-astartes subordinates a bit too hard, or expecting too much of them from time to time. This is hardly a brush to paint the entire Adeptus Astartes with though.

 

I'll now await argumentative 'clarification' on some nuance that someone feels I've errd in.

 

So blissful ignorance is better than having possible gaps in your knowledge pointed out for you? Interpreting certain information the way you would personally like to see it is fine, so long as it doesn't stomp all over the shared universe at play here.

 

This is a fictitious, almost totally fan-stitched together shared universe that we all work within, just coming up with an opinion based on, well, nothing is not playing nice with everyone else's views.

 

And no, I'm not attacking you, this is a discussion on the statements you have made.

[lothbrok]

well while i like hey idea of them be mothers for recruitsd it doesent really fit with my chapter theme as they beleive in the strength of mankind and that chapter heros are reincarnated as humans only to be selected for the chapter again. And as for the lack of female warriors in a feral enviorment the ancients celts were renowned for allowing both genders to fight.

[Ecritter]

Back to original question ... I think.

 

Can a Chapter have a contingent of female warriors fight with them? It has been done here, and works to some extent. Would they be SoBs? No need to involve them so don't bother. Make your own female group.

[Eddie Orlock]

not even small detachments are seconded 'cause marines are bad at it in the modern era.

I don't know where you're getting your information my friend, ...

Mostly vaguely recalled snippets I've encountered over the last couple of decades. We will all note that in one line I point out that marines are bad at leading unaugmented troops, only to later note that serf militia and PDF's are common place auxillias. I could differntiate that the attachments tend to have their own tactical command structures and while these forces cooperate with the marines they're not lead by them, but I'm not going to. For a 'studio' source some enterprising soul could dig into some old version of Epic wherein it was the designers expectation that Guard and Marines would form a combined force and that players desire to disocciate these arms lead to the kludge that is anti-aircraft whirlwinds. Said version of Epic may offer some insight as to which figures undertook the role of supreme commander in those cases.

I'll now await argumentative 'clarification' on some nuance that someone feels I've errd in.

So blissful ignorance is better than having possible gaps in your knowledge pointed out for you?

Certainly. I'd appearently rather propagate my lies without contest thank you very much.

And no, I'm not attacking you, this is a discussion on the statements you have made.

Of course you're not attacking me, that would be a violation of forum rules and civilised frater never do that. The post was only strongly implying that the proponent of an alegidly spurious case was mailciously ignorant and narrow minded. In the absense of citeable reference material it's all idle conjecture anyway, and I prefer the version where astartes have limitations stemming from their own myopic experience.

Back to original question ... I think.

 

Can a Chapter have a contingent of female warriors fight with them? It has been done here, and works to some extent. Would they be SoBs? No need to involve them so don't bother. Make your own female group.

I think I can support these assertions on all accounts, and further comment that it would be very unlikely to be Sororita unless the chapter is question was one of the few that subscribe to the cult of the saviour emperor. It could be a chapter in which serfdom is hereditary and the warrior woman contingent is drawn from that portion of the serf population that is by nessecity female to allow for the propagation of new serfs. Trained up so that they might better understand their feudal lords and thus better anticipate their needs.

[Ace Debonair]

I was wondering if it could be possible for a space marine chapter to maintain a small number of female warriors. now im not saying they're space marines but that their sort of an auxiallary force that acts like a home guard guarding the fortress monastrery and or selecting new recuits for the chapter sort of like norse valkyries. is this a good idea or is it far to close to being plain out rediculous and best left alone.

 

That is a pretty nifty idea, I gotta say.

Provided you don't actually call them valkyries, I mean. A little subtlety never hurt anyone. :)

 

I think I'd also make markedly sure they weren't Sisters of Battle, although for modelling purposes they'd fit right in. :)

 

Of course you're not attacking me, that would be a violation of forum rules and civilised frater never do that. The post was only strongly implying that the proponent of an alegidly spurious case was mailciously ignorant and narrow minded. In the absense of citeable reference material it's all idle conjecture anyway, and I prefer the version where astartes have limitations stemming from their own myopic experience.

I daresay most marines would be pretty bad at commanding guard forces, especially chapters who either don't like the guard much or don't work with them often.

 

But kindly note that Apothete, although a very talented chap, is not (always) psychic, and may have genuinely thought you unaware of the seperation of powers and all that business. And that in light of that probability, the sarcastic responses are hardly good sport.

[Eddie Orlock]

Of course you're not attacking me, that would be a violation of forum rules and civilised frater never do that. The post was only strongly implying that the proponent of an alegidly spurious case was mailciously ignorant and narrow minded. In the absense of citeable reference material it's all idle conjecture anyway, and I prefer the version where astartes have limitations stemming from their own myopic experience.

I daresay most marines would be pretty bad at commanding guard forces, especially chapters who either don't like the guard much or don't work with them often.

 

But kindly note that Apothete, although a very talented chap, is not (always) psychic, and may have genuinely thought you unaware of the seperation of powers and all that business. And that in light of that probability, the sarcastic responses are hardly good sport.

That may be a fair assesment, and there are times when I need to review my own sig quote. The board provides a small stat box off to the side of the post and while it's generally advised to consider the content and not the source, I'd be ashamed to have been in the hobby since prior to the B&C's Crash in '02 and not know a smidge about the seperation of powers. While I'll admit that tenure is not directly related to the depth of knowledge it is not without some correlation. Perhaps it's a case of the more recently inducted feeling the joy of spreading their understanding clashing with the cantankerous and long present who presume that the peers already know what he knows.

 

The degree of speration has fluctuated over the years, as most things are won't to do in this hobby and in the distant past it was quite permissable to subordinate guard and eldar forces under a marine commander in the same tournement legal army.

[soddinnutter]

And in any case 'Feudal' is a political structure.

That's true, but How many Warladies do you know?

 

The Isle of Sark in the English Channel.

[Apothete]

But for this to be more likely the Chapter would have to be some of the children of Vulkan, as they seem to be the only marines who get along with humanity to any real degree.

 

Not necessarily true.

 

Part of the problem with aligning Sororitas and Astartes is one of dogma and outward expression of same, which is to say that the Sisters tend to be uncompromising on their views about the Imperial Cult, the divinity of the Emperor, the role of psykers, and so on. Very few Chapters are likely to see eye to eye with them, which would make long-term alliance difficult without overwhelming external pressure forcing them to do so. There'd also be the question of chain of command and the melding of the various strengths of each force's resources.

 

The thing is, the Serfs don't fight at the side of their Astartes masters, bar the naval battles or defending the Homeworld. And the Astartes worlds are feral or feudal in nature, an unlikely environment for female warriors.

 

This.

 

If there's a problem with PDF and Guard forces keeping up with Astartes, as Eddie asserts is the main reason that the Marines are not in charge, then it would likely apply to any Serf or other unaugmented mortal force as well. There's a possibility that one could create an interesting story that has to do with failed aspirants or superior gene lines being used to create a secondary command beneath the Chapter's marines, offering a way for both genders to serve, but that gets too far into the territory of the Ultramarine's barracks and the separation of powers again.

 

Mostly vaguely recalled snippets I've encountered over the last couple of decades. We will all note that in one line I point out that marines are bad at leading unaugmented troops, only to later note that serf militia and PDF's are common place auxillias. I could differntiate that the attachments tend to have their own tactical command structures and while these forces cooperate with the marines they're not lead by them, but I'm not going to.

 

Everyone has snippets and recollections, especially those of us who've been involved with the game and its universe for multiple decades. When you start an argument like this, though, it's generally considered polite to either provide backing for your assertions or to at least admit that they're nothing more than your opinion.

 

Said version of Epic may offer some insight as to which figures undertook the role of supreme commander in those cases.

 

We all know that tabletop rules don't always reflect the fluff in anything even remotely approaching a realistic manner, regardless of concerns of retcon, alteration, or addition. I could just as easily point out that if you go back far enough in the rule systems, you obviously need to be allowing all Space Marine armies overwatch rolls because it was once allowed and they do it visibly in stories, codices, novels, and other official fiction in all eras of the game's existence.

 

Of course you're not attacking me, that would be a violation of forum rules and civilised frater never do that. The post was only strongly implying that the proponent of an alegidly spurious case was mailciously ignorant and narrow minded.

 

I've yet to see anyone accuse you of malicious anything, though your latest post is kind of borderline.

 

Some of the tone around here gets a bit strident and haughty, which is perhaps not as it ought to be, but you're not particularly going out of your way to help things. I'm not sure why you feel so personally affronted by people challenging your opinions but I welcome discussion and the possibility of being proven wrong, especially if you can show something to back your side rather than just making statements.

 

It could be a chapter in which serfdom is hereditary and the warrior woman contingent is drawn from that portion of the serf population that is by nessecity female to allow for the propagation of new serfs. Trained up so that they might better understand their feudal lords and thus better anticipate their needs.

 

That's a bit... Well, worrying isn't really the word, though perhaps an argument could be made that it would be sufficiently grimdark enough to fit.

 

You don't really expand upon the concept much but it reads like you're suggesting that the best of the female serfs would be trained in combat, but only as a way for them to understand the men that they would serve. Why is it necessary that you have a patriarchal system, even if one is implied by the nature of Astartes physiology? It would be just as easy to set up a system in which the women are traditionally proud, successful warriors and that they view the raising of powerful, capable sons and daughters as being the best they can do for the future of their people. It'd take some finagling to explain how the societal structure stabilized after being integrated as a recruitment world or even a homeworld for a Chapter, since the warrior culture would have to deal with the fact that their daughters could never become what the sons are able to.

 

But kindly note that Apothete, although a very talented chap, is not (always) psychic, and may have genuinely thought you unaware of the seperation of powers and all that business. And that in light of that probability, the sarcastic responses are hardly good sport.

 

Hell, I'll cop to being a bit too pompous for my own good in my response.

 

It read to me, late at night, like someone making a comment that might not have understood the separation of powers. I was making a point of explaining it because I've noticed a flood of new people around the place lately, asking questions that have been answered before. Apparently Eddie is not one of those.

 

That may be a fair assesment, and there are times when I need to review my own sig quote. The board provides a small stat box off to the side of the post and while it's generally advised to consider the content and not the source, I'd be ashamed to have been in the hobby since prior to the B&C's Crash in '02 and not know a smidge about the seperation of powers. While I'll admit that tenure is not directly related to the depth of knowledge it is not without some correlation. Perhaps it's a case of the more recently inducted feeling the joy of spreading their understanding clashing with the cantankerous and long present who presume that the peers already know what he knows.

 

Before we get into a pissing match about who's been on the forum longer, you might also want to consider that registration here doesn't necessarily coincide with a starting point of involvement in the hobby or its environs. We're both a bit guilty here.

[Eddie Orlock]

Mostly vaguely recalled snippets I've encountered over the last couple of decades. We will all note that in one line I point out that marines are bad at leading unaugmented troops, only to later note that serf militia and PDF's are common place auxillias. I could differntiate that the attachments tend to have their own tactical command structures and while these forces cooperate with the marines they're not lead by them, but I'm not going to.

Everyone has snippets and recollections, especially those of us who've been involved with the game and its universe for multiple decades. When you start an argument like this, though, it's generally considered polite to either provide backing for your assertions or to at least admit that they're nothing more than your opinion.

It is times like this that I lament having been on the road for the last year and seperated from my reference material. Ordinarily, I would have been more than happy to have poured through old books to make the argument

Said version of Epic may offer some insight as to which figures undertook the role of supreme commander in those cases.

We all know that tabletop rules don't always reflect the fluff in anything even remotely approaching a realistic manner, regardless of concerns of retcon, alteration, or addition. I could just as easily point out that if you go back far enough in the rule systems, you obviously need to be allowing all Space Marine armies overwatch rolls because it was once allowed and they do it visibly in stories, codices, novels, and other official fiction in all eras of the game's existence.

As with so much of our hobby, there is some interpreting of the sources to be done. I'll postulate that there are rules that are implemented to facilitate playability and there are rules implemented to ensure the games appearance is at least vaguely congruent with the fluff. I'll further hypothesys that force construction guides generally fall into the latter rather than the former, whereas overwatch fits into the former rather than the latter. A game mechanical response to the risk of being charged by something outside of small arms range, a risk that was presumed mostly mitigated at the start of third edition. We could break here for a digression on game design philosophy with respect to warhammer over the years, but I think that would take us off topic if we aren't already.

It could be a chapter in which serfdom is hereditary and the warrior woman contingent is drawn from that portion of the serf population that is by nessecity female to allow for the propagation of new serfs. Trained up so that they might better understand their feudal lords and thus better anticipate their needs.

That's a bit... Well, worrying isn't really the word, though perhaps an argument could be made that it would be sufficiently grimdark enough to fit.

 

You don't really expand upon the concept much but it reads like you're suggesting that the best of the female serfs would be trained in combat, but only as a way for them to understand the men that they would serve. Why is it necessary that you have a patriarchal system, even if one is implied by the nature of Astartes physiology? It would be just as easy to set up a system in which the women are traditionally proud, successful warriors and that they view the raising of powerful, capable sons and daughters as being the best they can do for the future of their people. It'd take some finagling to explain how the societal structure stabilized after being integrated as a recruitment world or even a homeworld for a Chapter, since the warrior culture would have to deal with the fact that their daughters could never become what the sons are able to.

I think you've taken a throw away suggestion and made it far grimmer and darker than I intended. When I mentioned that half the serf population would be female I only intended to tip the hat to the notion that the girl children wouldn't be fed to the wolves at birth. Just about any stable human breeding population is half female, it's pretty much a biological nessecity. In the initial half baked concept, it was more a case that the serfs in question were generally considered non-combatants in a bit of a non-warrior culture and that only an elite selection of the upper echelons of the serfs would be so trained. Contrast this with a chapter whose serfs would be derived from fail aspirants, or those who failed their induction/genecompatibility trials, or even pressganged unwillingly. In those cases, it would be entierly possible to have an entierly mono-gender monestary. I suppose you could write a chapter that held the belief that those they've saved from the Emperors enemies owe them a life debt and thus abduct them back to their home system to toil in the promethium refinery/other unpleasent place until they earn their new lords trust and are elevated to a position of relative comfort like the chapter forge assembly lines.

 

In the initial case with the trained, mixed gender, serfs the training in the war crafts could serve to highlight to the serf elite just why it is so important that they, I dunno, polish every bolt round while reciting the anti-jamming litany when they load their liege's spare magazines. Really, it could also have been that only the women were so inducted into the warrior mysteries as the matriarchal nature of the society on the homeworld would have been subject to upheaval if the men were able to assume combative roles and launch a coup. The marines take the best lads of every generation as apriants that prior to the coming of the Imperium the ruling women would have had put to death as a threat to their power. Instead the boys are only symbolically slain and given a chance to rise again as one of the emperors divine servants. Could double talk back and forth for a bit, but I get enough PCness and gender politic over in the Ordos Inquisition.

But kindly note that Apothete, although a very talented chap, is not (always) psychic, and may have genuinely thought you unaware of the seperation of powers and all that business. And that in light of that probability, the sarcastic responses are hardly good sport.

Hell, I'll cop to being a bit too pompous for my own good in my response.

 

It read to me, late at night, like someone making a comment that might not have understood the separation of powers. I was making a point of explaining it because I've noticed a flood of new people around the place lately, asking questions that have been answered before. Apparently Eddie is not one of those.

Now that we've both smoothed our ruffled feathers and trumpeted our old git natures I can return to my earstwhile habits of staying away from this area of the board.

[Shinzaren]

My only question is what purpose would they serve? Why bother going through all the trouble and arguments? Space Marines fight on an entirely different level then even the best of normal humans, male or female. Why waste the time raising, training, feeding, housing, and arming a whole bunch of people that would be worse than the marines? What is their motivation for this? Ecritter's Sons of Pyron explain it partially, but even that I don't really buy into. I just don't understand what purpose Space Marines would have for raising up an army of women to fight alongside them...

 

If they are filling the role of serfs, fine, but why all women? If they are supposed to be fighting alongside the Space Marines, then that is just silly. Why would Marines waste time developing a sub-par fighting force?

[Ecritter]

Hey, I thought I did a good job with the Sons :)