Blood lance conundrum

[Glendor]

If you fire blood lance and it hits multiple units or maybe only one it doesnt matter. Can the squad shoot at something else because you have no declared target and you just drew a line.

[shatter]

It's considered a (psykic) shooting attack.

-I've seen consensus for this to be true, at least here.

 

Shooting attacks need a declared target. All models within a unit declare at the same target.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

Pretty sure you have to declare one unit as the primary target.

[Cyto]

According to the FAQ:

 

Q: Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack that can hit

multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after

using Blood Lance, which unit(s) is he permitted to

assault?

A: Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance.

 

Which leads to the assumption that the first target hit is also the primary target of all further shooting attacks. However, if you first shoot with the squad and then use blood lance, you probably have to assault whatever you shot first and not what Blood Lance hits first. (really bad FAQ ruling to be honest)

[JamesI]

Cyto, remember you declare all of a unit's shooting at once. so, the rest of the unit must target the first unit hit by the Blood Lance.

[Demoulius]

i think Cyto means you fire the bolt pistols first and then use lance, but then youd still have to hit models from the first target. :D

[JamesI]

The problem is that Blood Lance isn't fired then the squad shoots, or squad shoots then the libby uses lance. They happen simultaneously. Its not possible to have a librarian attached to a squad, fire the pistols then fire the lance (or reversed).

[Demoulius]

true James, but ussualy i dont fire weapon with very different profiles at the same time. for example if the unit has a flamer i fire that first and then do bolters (or bolt pistols) the shooting happens at the same time you just do it in a different order.

[Judaz]

But you still have to declare the shooting for the entire unit. You may roll separately, but the shooting takes place at the same moment. If you shoot the bolt pistols first your opponent can't remove any casualties before you shoot with your flamer or blood lance.

 

So if you decide to shoot pistols at unit B even though unit A is closer and you fire your blood lance through unit A and also hits unit B, you would have to assault unit B (you could of course assault unit A in a multiassault, but you HAVE to reach unit B ). The majority of the unit is firing at unit B.

[JamesI]

But you still have to declare the shooting for the entire unit. You may roll separately, but the shooting takes place at the same moment. If you shoot the bolt pistols first your opponent can't remove any casualties before you shoot with your flamer or blood lance.

 

So if you decide to shoot pistols at unit B even though unit A is closer and you fire your blood lance through unit A and also hits unit B, you would have to assault unit B (you could of course assault unit A in a multiassault, but you HAVE to reach unit B ). The majority of the unit is firing at unit B.

Actually, you can't do that. Blood Lance targets the first unit hit according to the FAQ. So everyone has to target unit A, or Blood Lance can't be used if you want to target unit B in this scenario.

[Morticon]

James,(and Cyto I guess) while im in agreement with your disagreement of Judaz's comment! Thats definitely not only whats up.

However the wording of the FAQ doesnt allow for much more than a vague inference at what you guys are suggesting.

 

My thinking on this is, the FAQ (silly as it is worded) just gives you a new set of conditions. It doesnt over-ride your previous requirements to select a target.

 

So, you can still target B with all of your squads shooting, (assuming A is in front) but then will have to charge target A.

I think this is really silly and wonderfully open to abuse, but unless im missing something, it seems really explicit and clear.

 

The FAQ doesnt tell us anything about targeting or primary/secondary selection for firing at. It ONLY gives us a condition of who we can charge.

 

Here are the rules summarised:

 

Rule1: You may pick a target for shooting. (pg 15/16)

Rule2: You must charge the unit you shot at. (pg 33)

Rule3: Blood Lance can hit multiple units. (BA pg 63)

Rule4: You must charge the first target hit by Blood Lance (FAQ).

 

Rules 3 and 4 deal with hitting, not targeting.

 

 

As a result, I think you can fully ride on up, unload on the further squad and charge the closer within the boundaries of this rule.

[JamesI]

Rule1: You may pick a target for shooting. (pg 15/16)

Rule2: You must charge the unit you shot at. (pg 33)

Rule3: Blood Lance can hit multiple units. (BA pg 63)

Rule4: You must charge the first target hit by Blood Lance (FAQ).

 

Rules 3 and 4 deal with hitting, not targeting.

 

 

As a result, I think you can fully ride on up, unload on the further squad and charge the closer within the boundaries of this rule.

In this situation.

 

Rule 1: Target selected Unit B.

Rule 2: Must charge unit B.

Rule 3: Blood Lance hits A and B.

Rule 4. Must charge Unit A.

 

Rule 2 and 4 conflict. No charge is legal because you can not declare the charge at unit A and at unit B.

[Jorre]

I think this is a bit silly. I would just tell my oppenent that I intend on charging unit B hence firing at it. Any reasonable player would understand your intention

[Morticon]

But theres no conflict, since the FAQ specifically allows us to do so (and disallows/overrules the rule book).

FAQ takes precedence, not so?

 

In essence through this FAQ we have permission to target something and charge something else, but not a ruling/condition to only target the first unit.

 

If a player says "no, you cant charge that unit, because you didnt target at it" you can very easily show the FAQ which says we can.

 

However, if the players says "no you MUST target the closest unit" theres no way we can prove that beyond an inference of the rules (which is overridden by the previously stated rule).

[Morticon]

I think this is a bit silly. I would just tell my oppenent that I intend on charging unit B hence firing at it. Any reasonable player would understand your intention

 

But matey, we're actually not allowed to do this.

If theres a unit A in front of that, and lance hits it, we have to charge A.

 

The only argument at the moment is whether or not youre allowed to choose B as a target in the first place if lance will pass through A.

[JamesI]

To the best of my knowledge, ever since 4th started, GW has ruled against every situation where players tried to shoot one thing and charge another (such as Blood Claws having to charge the closest so they would shoot something elst)

 

I read the FAQ as basically making Blood Lance target the first unit (same as JotWW I believe was FAQed to target the first unit)

[Demoulius]

dont you guys just love GW flawless ability to make rules contradict? :)

[Glendor]

so is there no official rule we can all agree on in terms of my original question which has nothing to do with charging.

 

Though that is very interesting stuff

[Leonaides]

page 50, psychic shooting attack. Counts as firing a ranged weapon, must be able to see his target unit, etc. If he is joined to another unit, it follows the same targeting rules as a normal weapon, so the other unit must also target the same thing. So no. That help?

[Judaz]

But the librarian can still shoot at unit B, and they would get a cover save from unit A?

And the rules and FAQ are really messed up here, or not.

The librarian is only allowed to assault the first unit he fires at, so if we do as in my example, the unit stands still and assaults noone...

[Glendor]

yes so the rest of the squad only can shoot at the first target hit?

[Judaz]

No, I mean that both the unit and the librarian shoots at unit B. Unit A stands in the way and also gets hit by the blood lance. And because unit A gets hit first, niether the librarian (who's only allowed to assault the first unit hit) nor the unit he's with (who shoots at unit B and needs to assault them) can assualt.

[Glendor]

I am not currently worried about assaulting i am only talking of shooting

[Morticon]

so is there no official rule we can all agree on in terms of my original question which has nothing to do with charging.

 

Though that is very interesting stuff

 

 

If you go with James's interpretation of it, you're only allowed to target the closest unit with bloodlance (and therefore the rest of the squad), if you go with mine, you can target any squad you wish, but you just have to assault the first.

[Brother Nathan]

if you can hit multiple units, your orobably hoping to multi charge, and succesive units hit by lance get coversaves...