Blood lance conundrum

[Glendor]

They get cover saves?

[shatter]

Morticon's interpretation is the simplest with regard to what the rules say to do. Yes, it's unusual, but it is what the RAW+FAQ equal. The wording of the FAQ essentially changes the declared target (to the first lance contact unit) post shooting for the librarian (and attached squad).

 

It may be changed at a later date.

 

*shrug*

 

edit:

Cover saves? yeah, as per shooting & cover rules. Requires normal conditions to be met however so it's not necessarily automatic.

[The Yncarne]

While I have to go with Morticon's reasoning, I remember Jervis once saying "FAQs don't change rules, errata does." I guess GW has decided to reverse that policy. ^_^

[Judaz]

But the wording in the FAQ is actually: "which unit(s) is he permitted to assault?"

I'd say that the rulebook states that the unit as a whole can't fire at one unit and assault the other, and that nothing in the FAQ that overrules that. The FAQ just states that he has to assault the unit he hit first, not that the unit the libby is joined with can assault a different target than they shot at.

[Morticon]

But the wording in the FAQ is actually: "which unit(s) is he permitted to assault?"

I'd say that the rulebook states that the unit as a whole can't fire at one unit and assault the other, and that nothing in the FAQ that overrules that. The FAQ just states that he has to assault the unit he hit first, not that the unit the libby is joined with can assault a different target than they shot at.

 

 

Well, actually it does. If you have free choice to shoot whichever squad you wish (as per the rules) and then have to charge the squad you shoot at(as per the rules), but in a FAQ gain permission to charge something else (ie: the first squad hit, as opposed to the targeted squad) then where's the problem?

 

Remember when tackling rules issues, there are two things you must do:

 

1: Break no existing rule.

2: Create no new rule.

 

James mentioned what he thinks is a break(contradiction) in the rules with 2 and 4 (above). However, based on the the fact that the FAQ is a new condition or new set of permissions, I believe we're good to go.

 

The other interpretation means we have to make up a rule that says you can only fire at the first squad it touches. And nowhere does it say that.

 

Hope that at least clears up the two argument camps!

[Judaz]

I still disagree, the librarian should loose that special ability (special rules) when he joins a unit. And I do believe that we are breaking a rule if we let the joined unit assault a different unit than the one they shot at. Remember that the FAQ only deals with the librarian, not a unit.

[Plague Angel]

While I have to go with Morticon's reasoning, I remember Jervis once saying "FAQs don't change rules, errata does." I guess GW has decided to reverse that policy. :)

 

If they have, they haven't taken down the statement that says "FAQs are just suggestions" yet. So I have to disagree with Mort on this.

 

I don't even agree with the line that the FAQ is giving "a new permission to assault," I think it's clarifying which of the multiple units hit was the Librarian's "target." Here's how I read it:

 

1. A unit must assault the enemy unit it shot at, the "target."

2. A Blood Lance can hit multiple units.

3. A Librarian must assault the first enemy unit hit by the Blood Lance.

 

My conclusion to these three premises is that the first enemy hit is the "target." Therefore, if a Librarian is attached to a squad, the squad must fire at the Librarian's target, as per the rules.

 

Saying that the FAQ is a new condition doesn't seem accurate to me. It's not a new set of rules, it's a (recommended) clarification of the pre-existing Codex. So I think Mort's read is actually in violation of his own "Create no new rule" principle. Saying "my designated target can be changed mid-shooting phase" is a new rule, and one not found in the FAQ without semantic leaps and hurdles. I'm arguing for a more Occam's Razor approach, above.

[vahouth]

so is there no official rule we can all agree on in terms of my original question which has nothing to do with charging.

 

Though that is very interesting stuff

 

 

If you go with James's interpretation of it, you're only allowed to target the closest unit with bloodlance (and therefore the rest of the squad), if you go with mine, you can target any squad you wish, but you just have to assault the first.

 

But what happens if the 4dice range does not reach the target unit B, but instead it reaches unit A in front?

Does the lance work?

Can you get a charge?

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

This ruling really is another example of a badly worded FAQ causing more issues than it solves.

 

The issue was: which unit counts as the target of Blood Lance for the following assault phase? This was a real issue especially if the Blood Lance shooting was the only shooting a unit (either the Libby alone, or the squad he joined) did during the shooting phase.

And they answer it with some kind of FAQ answering that will now be waved around as RAW in situations that it was completely not meant for.

 

If I declare shooting on one unit for my entire unit and Blood Lance hits another squad before it reaches that squad, and I then want to assault the squad I first declared as my shooting target I have the entire BRB behind me to state that I don't care about the FAQ in this situation as my target was already declared before I did the Blood Lance. So for the assault phase it was very clear.

 

The best way to make this FAQ and what situation it was for was more like this:

 

Q: How do I determine the squad is the target of shooting when using the Blood Lance power?

A: You either declare it beforehand, or if not declared assume the first unit hit by the power to be the target.

 

That changes nothing in the RAW, unlike the current FAQ. And that is how I'll at least play it in my FLGS.

[Judaz]

I my own little world the FAQ makes it impossible to assault anything with the unit if the libby shoots at a different target than the rest of the unit.

 

Shooting at one target 8' away and then assaulting another target because the librarians power hit that unit first...thats some creative use of the rules and the FAQ.

[Morticon]

The original "issue" shouldnt be an issue at all.

 

This is a psychic shooting attack.

 

It follows the rules of shooting, which include a prerequisite of picking a target.

You cant not choose a target, and you cant choose a different target from the unit you are with.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

The original "issue" shouldnt be an issue at all.

 

This is a psychic shooting attack.

 

It follows the rules of shooting, which include a prerequisite of picking a target.

You cant not choose a target, and you cant choose a different target from the unit you are with.

 

QFT.

 

Any other way of using a Psychic Shooting attack just creates problems the rules were not created for and where you get silly a FAQ explaination (I refuse to call it a ruling) like this.

[DV8]

Please bear with me, this will be a semi-long post.

 

Blood Lance contains many of the same properties as Jaws of the World Wolf, albiet with a random range and different effect. But the execution of the powers are virtually identical. Let's take a look at a Librarian casting Blood Lance as a single lone character, in comparison with a Rune Priest casting Jaws of the World Wolf.

 

• Psychic Test
  
• Draw the line
  
• First model/unit affected becomes the Target
  

Now where Blood Lance differs is that, unlike Jaws, it cannot hurt friendly models. Any models hit by Blood Lance are skipped over, so:

 

Librarian ---> Blood Lance ---> Friendly Unit A ---> Enemy Unit B ---> Friendly Unit C ---> Enemy Unit D

 

This targeting sequence is valid, because Blood Lance will pass over Friendly Units A and C to hit Enemy Units B and D, provided it has enough range, and that the Librarian has Line of Sight to Enemy Unit B. Because the first model/unit affected is Enemy Unit B, no rules are broken.

 

Now, compare to Jaws of the World Wolf, this would be an illegal sequence, assuming Friendly Unit A could actually be affected by Jaws.

 

Rune Priest ---> Jaws of the World Wolf ---> Friendly Unit A ---> Enemy Unit B ---> Friendly Unit C ---> Enemy Unit D

 

This is because, as per the Shooting Attacks rules, you cannot willingly or deliberately target your own models with your own weapons, were Jaws of the World Wolf to hit and affect Friendly Unit A, they would be treated as the Target for the Psychic Shooting Attack, making the Rune Priest's casting of Jaws of the World Wolf illegal (and thus it would fail to go off). This is assuming, of course, that the Rune Priest is unable to draw a line through Friendly Unit A without touching any of its models, while still being able to hit Enemy Unit B.

 

The only sequence acceptable is if the first model/unit hit and affected by Jaws is an Enemy Unit (one that can be affected by Jaws).

 

Rune Priest ---> Jaws of the World Wolf ---> Enemy Unit B ---> Friendly Unit C ---> Enemy Unit D

 

This is the only legal way for a Rune Priest to cast Jaws. The first model that the line hits and affects must be an Enemy unit/model that can actually be hurt by Jaws, and which the Rune Priest has Line of Sight to. Were it to hit a Friendly Unit first, it would fail to meet the criteria for an eligible Target and thus fail to go off.

 

Now, referencing the Shooting Attacks rules, a unit, with any attached Independent Characters, must direct all of its shooting towards the same Target. The only time there is deviation is if the unit specifically has a rule that allows it to direct its fire differently, as is the case with Long Fangs and their Split Fire rule, or Tau units with Target Locks.

 

Morticon, what you say is true. All shooting happens at the same time, regardless of the sequence in which the shooting actually happens. However, the declaration of sequence is important. I'll use Jaws of the World Wolf as an example.

 

Rune Priest + Grey Hunters ---> Jaws of the World Wolf ---> Enemy Unit A ---> Friendly Unit B ---> Enemy Unit C

..|

..V

Jaws of the World Wolf

..|

..V

Friendly Unit D

..|

..V

Enemy Unit E

 

In this situation, there are three potential Enemy Units that I can elect to shoot at: Enemy Units A, C and E.

 

• If I declare that my Grey Hunters will Target Enemy Unit A with their shooting, there is no problem. The Rune Priest can also cast Jaws of the World Wolf, and depending on how I draw my line, it may or may not hit Friendly Unit B and Enemy Unit C along the way. As Enemy Unit A is the first model/unit affected by Jaws of the World Wolf, it follows the proper Shooting Attack rules for choosing a Target (that is, all models in a unit, including attached characters, must shoot at the same Target).
  
• If I declare that my Rune Priest will Target Enemy Unit A, or simply cast the Psychic Power and draw the line towards and hitting Enemy Unit A, I have implicitly declared that Enemy Unit A is my Target for all intents and purposes. The Grey Hunters the Rune Priest is attached to must now also shoot at Enemy Unit A (if they so choose to), as the Rune Priest attached to their squad has already declared Enemy Unit A as the Target.
  
• If I declare that my Grey Hunters will Target Enemy Unit C with their shooting, there is no problem. So long as I can draw Line of Sight past Enemy Unit A and Friendly Unit B to see Enemy Unit C, I can shoot. If I wanted my Rune Priest to also cast Jaws of the World Wolf, that becomes a trickier problem altogether. Because I have already declared that the Grey Hunters will Target Enemy Unit C, the Rune Priest must also, per the Shooting Attack rules, make Enemy Unit C his Target (thus, the first model hit and affected by Jaws of the World Wolf must be a model from Enemy Unit C). If I cannot draw a line straight past Enemy Unit A, and Friendly Unit B without touching one of their models, Jaws of the World Wolf would be in violation of the Shooting Attack rules and would fail to go off.
  
• The same issue occurs if my Grey Hunters declare they will Target Enemy Unit E with their shooting. The Rune Priest must, by the Shooting Attack rules, be able to draw the Jaws of the World Wolf line past Friendly Unit D without touching any of its models, to reach and touch a model from Enemy Unit E. If it cannot, it is in violation of the Shooting Attack rules and fails to go off.
  
• Now if I were to declare my Rune Priest's firing first, it becomes trickier. Lets say I wish to hit Enemy Unit C with Jaws of the World Wolf. My Rune Priest casts the Psychic Power, and then draws the 24" line towards Enemy Unit C. If I can draw a straight line through Enemy Unit A and Friendly Unit B without touching any of them, great! Enemy Unit C becomes my implicit target, and if my Grey Hunters fire, they too must fire at Enemy Unit C. If, however, I cannot, and Jaws of the World Wolf will hit Enemy Unit A, then Enemy Unit A will become my Target, despite the fact that the Jaws of the World Wolf line may continue on to hit Friendly Unit B and Enemy Unit C (my original intended target). The Grey Hunters will also have to shoot at Enemy Unit A, if they so choose to shoot.
  
• The same issue occurs if I want to make Enemy Unit E my target. The Rune Priest must be able to draw a straight line through Friendly Unit D without touching a model to hit Enemy Unit E, making them the Target. The Grey Hunters will also have to shoot at Enemy Unit E.
  

 

It's a lot to read, but continue to bear with me. Why do I parallel Blood Lance to Jaws of the World Wolf? To illustrate the fact that, just as shooting happens simultaneously for a unit, so too does the declaration of targets (which must happen before any and all shooting for a unit begins). To use Long Fangs as an example (because they can actively target two separate units).

 

Long Fangs ---> Enemy Unit A

..|

..|

..V

Enemy Unit B

 

Before I can begin firing with my Long Fangs, I must actively declare who my Target is. If I choose to split fire, I must declare which two units I will declare as my Targets, and which weapons I will fire. For the sake of this argument, lets say I have a unit of 6 Long Fangs with 2 Lascannons and 3 Missile Launchers. Enemy Unit A is a Hellhound, and Enemy Unit B is a unit of Conscripts.

 

• If I want to put all my firepower into the Hellhound, I must declare that it is my Target and will fire all my shots at it (Lascannons and Missile Launchers). If my Lascannons subsequently kill the Hellhound, I cannot then elect to "Split Fire" the Missile Launchers into the Conscripts, as I have already declared my Target.
  
• If I want to put my Lascannons into the Hellhound, and my Missile Launchers into the Conscripts, I must declare that before any dice are rolled, that I am putting both my Lascannons into the Hellhound and my Missiles into the Conscripts. Should the Lascannons fail to kill the Hellhound (or do any sufficient damage that I need/want to put more firepower into it), that same Long Fangs squad cannot then shoot it's Missile Launchers at the Hellhound as well, as I have already declared that the Target for the Missile Launchers will be the Conscripts.
  

 

Similarly, a Rune Priest with any squad, and/or a Librarian with any squad, must also declare their Target before any of their shooting takes place. Whether the Target declaration happens explicitly or implicitly doesn't matter, whichever declaration happens first takes precedent. Similar to the situation above with the Rune Priest with the Grey Hunters:

 

Librarian with Tactical Squad ---> Enemy Unit A ---> Friendly Unit B ---> Enemy Unit C

 

• If I explicitly declare that the Tactical Squad will shoot at Enemy Unit A, there is no problem with the Librarian casting Blood Lance since it hitting Enemy Unit A still abides within the Shooting Attack rules.
  
• If I explicitly declare that the Tactical Squad will shoot at Enemy Unit B, then the Librarian can only cast Blood Lance if you can draw a straight line through Enemy Unit A (without touching any of the models) to hit Enemy Unit C. Should the Blood Lance be unable to pass through Enemy Unit A without touching a model, or should it fail to reach Enemy Unit C, it fails to go off.
  
• If my Librarian casts Blood Lance and hits Enemy Units A and C, the Tactical Squad must shoot at Enemy Unit A (should they so choose to shoot)
  

 

Like you said Morticon, with this kind of interpretation, you can't break any rules or make new ones up. The fact that the FAQ says the Blood Lance makes the first model hit/affected the Target does not change the fact that the Librarian cannot Target a different unit from the squad he is attached to (and vice versa, a squad cannot Target a different unit from the attached Librarian).

 

 

DV8

[Judaz]

Atleast we all agree on that GW are quite silly ;)

 

And I think we all agree with mort on the original issue.

[Judaz]

]If I explicitly declare that the Tactical Squad will shoot at Enemy Unit B, then the Librarian can only cast Blood Lance if you can draw a straight line through Enemy Unit A (without touching any of the models) to hit Enemy Unit C. Should the Blood Lance be unable to pass through Enemy Unit A without touching a model, or should it fail to reach Enemy Unit C, it fails to go off.

 

Like you said Morticon, with this kind of interpretation, you can't break any rules or make new ones up. The fact that the FAQ says the Blood Lance makes the first model hit/affected the Target does not change the fact that the Librarian cannot Target a different unit from the squad he is attached to (and vice versa, a squad cannot Target a different unit from the attached Librarian).

 

DV8

 

 

I have to disagree on some points.

 

The target that the librarian chooses is still the target, but he can't assault any other than the first hit, so he gets to shoot at Enemy Unit B along with the tacticals.

[DV8]

]If I explicitly declare that the Tactical Squad will shoot at Enemy Unit B, then the Librarian can only cast Blood Lance if you can draw a straight line through Enemy Unit A (without touching any of the models) to hit Enemy Unit C. Should the Blood Lance be unable to pass through Enemy Unit A without touching a model, or should it fail to reach Enemy Unit C, it fails to go off.

 

Like you said Morticon, with this kind of interpretation, you can't break any rules or make new ones up. The fact that the FAQ says the Blood Lance makes the first model hit/affected the Target does not change the fact that the Librarian cannot Target a different unit from the squad he is attached to (and vice versa, a squad cannot Target a different unit from the attached Librarian).

 

DV8

 

 

I have to disagree on some points.

 

The target that the librarian chooses is still the target, but he can't assault any other than the first hit, so he gets to shoot at Enemy Unit C along with the tacticals.

 

There's no disagreement. What you're saying is completely in line what what I've outlined above (and what the rules say we must do). It simply means that when declaring Assaults, while the Tactical Squad can combination charge Enemy Unit A and C, the Librarian can only charge Enemy Unit C (thus he's not allowed to make base to base with Enemy Unit A; the enemy most deliberately move models from Enemy Unit A into base to base with the Librarian in order for the Librarian to be able to attack Enemy Unit A.

 

The issue isn't a matter of who or what the Librarian and/or his attached squad (if any) shoot at, it's a matter of the determination of Target, which consequently affects who you can Assault. My entire post/rant before was literally to establish that the sequence of Target declaration before shooting is crucial, and that once a Target has been determined and declared (explicitly or implicitly), all other sequences must follow (Shooting and consequently Assault):

 

• All a unit's shooting (including attached Characters) must go into the same Target, unless the unit has a rule that specifically allows them to bypass this (again, Long Fangs with Split Fire, or Tau with Target Locks)
  
• A unit that wishes to Assault must Assault the unit they shot at (thus their Target). A combination charge is only legal and possible if said unit can first reach the initial Target unit, and remain in coherency while reaching additional enemy units.
  

 

About the only thing the FAQ changes is that it prohibits the Librarian from combination-assaulting a Target different from the Target he shot at (which really is a moot point since):

 

• All Independent Characters must be the first moved in an Assault move, and moved in the shortest distance to the Target unit. The only time this FAQ becomes an issue is if the Librarian is attached to a unit with more than one Independent Character, in which case the Librarian can only Assault the Target unit, while all other models (the unit plus extra Independent Characters included) can attempt to combination charge as long as it is legally possible).
  
• Should the Target unit have been destroyed in the Shooting phase, an Assault move is impossible anyways. The only exception being Transports, whereby you can Assault a Transport's contents should you be able to destroy the Transport and subsequently reach said contents in the Assault phase.
  

 

 

DV8

[Judaz]

If I explicitly declare that the Tactical Squad will shoot at Enemy Unit B, then the Librarian can only cast Blood Lance if you can draw a straight line through Enemy Unit A (without touching any of the models) to hit Enemy Unit C. Should the Blood Lance be unable to pass through Enemy Unit A without touching a model, or should it fail to reach Enemy Unit C, it fails to go off.

 

It's this part I don't really get and disagree on.

[DV8]

If I explicitly declare that the Tactical Squad will shoot at Enemy Unit B, then the Librarian can only cast Blood Lance if you can draw a straight line through Enemy Unit A (without touching any of the models) to hit Enemy Unit C. Should the Blood Lance be unable to pass through Enemy Unit A without touching a model, or should it fail to reach Enemy Unit C, it fails to go off.

 

It's this part I don't really get and disagree on.

 

It's the sequence that is important. You declare your Target for a unit first before you begin shooting. Once you've cast Blood Lance (that is, you roll the dice for the Psychic Test, and the 4D6 for distance) and start measuring the line, you've already begun the unit's shooting. You don't shoot first, see what hits, and THEN declare your Target. You declare your Target first, and THEN see what hits.

 

If you declare the Target unit for the squad first, and then cast Blood Lance that hits another unit first before continuing to hit the Target unit, you violate the Shooting Attack rules.

 

The FAQ states that the first unit hit/affected is the only unit the Librarian can Assault. This implicitly indicates that said unit is made the Target for Blood Lance (which, as a Psychic Shooting Attack, must have a Target, and you can only Assault the unit you Targeted in the Shooting Phase).

 

So the disagreement comes from the fact that it's not so much that the Blood Lance is unable to hit Enemy Unit A, but that because the Target was already declared before Blood Lance was fired, and Enemy Unit C was declared as the Target, should Blood Lance hit Enemy Unit A first, it is in direct violation of the Shooting Attack rules.

 

 

DV8

[Judaz]

We look at it the same way DV8 but with the exception that I think that the psychic power blood lance allows the librarian to shoot at whatever he will, it doesn't matter wich unit he hits first. The FAQ clearifies what unit he can assault. So if he hits unit A first but his friendly unit shot at unit B, the unit as a whole can't assault.

 

As long as he hits the unit he aims for, it doesn't matter what unit got struck first. The FAQ handles the assault phase, not the shooting phase.

[DV8]

We look at it the same way DV8 but with the exception that I think that the psychic power blood lance allows the librarian to shoot at whatever he will, it doesn't matter wich unit he hits first. The FAQ clearifies what unit he can assault. So if he hits unit A first but his friendly unit shot at unit B, the unit as a whole can't assault.

 

As long as he hits the unit he aims for, it doesn't matter what unit got struck first. The FAQ handles the assault phase, not the shooting phase.

 

You're interpreting a statement that doesn't exist. This happened way back with Jaws of the World Wolf when the Space Wolves Codex was first released.

 

Blood Lance is a Psychic Shooting Attack. As per all Psychic (which is just a regular Shooting Attack, modified by the specific power's rules) Shooting Attacks, it must abide by the regular Shooting Attack rules unless otherwise stated:

 

• A Target must be declared (an unengaged enemy model or unit)
  
• The Target must be in Line of Sight and Range
  
• Roll to Hit
  
• Roll to Wound
  
• Make Saves and Remove Casualties
  
• Morale Test if applicable
  

 

Unless the power specifically over-rides one or more of those steps, that is the sequence you must abide by. That the rules do not say you can't do something doesn't mean you can. You can only do what the rules tell you, nothing more. Doing something the rules do not say you cannot do is illegal. Jaws encounters the same problem because, like Blood Lance, instead of firing a normal "projectile" it projects a line straight out (24" or 4D6", doesn't matter) from the Psyker, affecting everything along that line (Blood Lance conveniently bounces over friendly units).

 

Nowhere in the description does it say you do not need to pick a Target. While it does say "in any direction", it still qualifies as a Shooting Attack, meaning Line of Sight, Target, etc etc. It also means that the Librarian counts as firing a weapon (thus no Pistols) and that in the Assault phase it must charge its Target (that is, the unit it shot at). Now while the FAQ does not clarify (unfortunately) what is qualified as the "Target", we have past precedent with an almost identical power (Jaws) that the first model/unit affected becomes the "Target". The FAQ also states that in the Assault phase, the Librarian can only charge the first unit hit/affected by the Blood Lance. As per normal shooting rules, that is to say, having to charge what you shot at (your "Target"), what the FAQ states (the Librarian can only charge the first unit hit/affected) and making an assumption based on the past precedent of Jaws that the first unit hit/affected becomes the "Target", we can make a reasonable and logical assumption that the intent of Games Workshop is that when Blood Lance hits its first unit/model, that unit/model becomes, for all intents and purposes, the "Target".

 

The matter becomes complicated, of course, once the Librarian is attached to a unit and you get into the intricacies of Target selection and declaration. However the sequence still stands, as does the core rules (that is, the Shooting Attack rules, where a Target must be declared, and the entirety of the unit - including attached Independent Characters - must shoot at said Target).

 

Your interpretation requires you to completely ignore the past precedent set by Jaws and the FAQ for said power, as well as ignore one of the Shooting Attack rules (that of Target Selection) as well as breaking another (where a unit and all attached Independent Characters must shoot at the same Target model/unit).

 

 

DV8

[Judaz]

I do completely ignore the past FAQ for space wolves, and that is mostly because I haven't read it. I do not however ignore the shooting attack rules or the IC/unit targetting rules. I had hoped that my earlier posts had made that clear.

 

But if the jaws were ruled like that, then it's very possible that our blood lance were meant to be ruled the same. How hard can it be to write a good FAQ?

[dswanick]

Here's my take on this issue:

I have a hypothetical BA unit with an attached Librarian. There are two enemy units: Unit A and Unit B, Unit B is directly behind Unit A. The BA unit chooses to shoot at Unit B with its Bolters while the Librarian uses Blood Lance.

THE SHOOTING SEQUENCE

1> Check line of sight & pick a target. Pick one of your units, check its line of sight and choose a target for it. All models in the unit that can see at least one enemy model in the target unit may open fire.

CHECK LINE OF SIGHT & PICK A TARGET

A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire among different targets.

So my Librarian and the BA unit he is attached to must both target unit B.

This power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4d6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffer a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type.

The first thing I notice is that while the power is called a psychic shooting attack, it modifies the normal shooting rule's pick a target unit step by instead having the player designate a direction. Nowhere does it say that the Librarian must designate a target unit to "fire" the Blood Lance nor does it say that the direction chosen must be such that it intersects a unit nominated as the shooting phase target. This may be the reason that GW felt the need to specify in the FAQ which target 'becomes' the shooting phase target of Blood Lance for Assault purposes. In the absence of the FAQ I would argue that the unit may designate unit B as their Shooting Phase target, and the Librarian could choose any direction for his Blood Lance then the whole combined unit would charge unit B - even if this meant the Librarian hit Units A and B or fired the Lance 180' in the other direction from either.

However, GW felt the need to "clarify" the situation by publishing this FAQ:

Q: Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack that can hit multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit(s) is he permitted to assault?

A: Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance.

So now, my combined unit declares Unit B as its target for shooting. The Librarian's Blood Lance is fired such that it intersects both Units A and B. The FAQ states that the Librarian must assault the first unit hit (Unit A), but the unit must assault Unit B.

DISALLOWED ASSAULTS

In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only assault the unit that it shot at - it cannot assault a different unit to the one it previously shot at.

Therefore the combined unit may not assault either as neither choice is a valid assault target for both.

 

An alternative approach is to consider that the above rule says that a unit must assault a target it shot at. As the Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, the unit now counts as having shot at two different units (not dissimilar to a Space Wolves Long Fang pack splitting fire at two units, except the Long Fang pack is disallowed from assaulting either unit by virtue of having fired Heavy weapons) and could therefore declare an assault against either Unit A or B. Except the FAQ now states that the Librarian (and by extention, the combined unit) must asasult the first unit hit by Blood Lance : Unit A.

 

The net result is either the combined unit can not assault either unit, or the combined unit must assault unit A and then multi-assault into B if desired and able. This is definitely a 'discuss with your opponent ahead of time or dice off' situation, as the RAW is unclear in this instance.

[Judaz]

The first thing I notice is that while the power is called a psychic shooting attack, it modifies the normal shooting rule's pick a target unit step by instead having the player designate a direction. Nowhere does it say that the Librarian must designate a target unit to "fire" the Blood Lance nor does it say that the direction chosen must be such that it intersects a unit nominated as the shooting phase target. This may be the reason that GW felt the need to specify in the FAQ which target 'becomes' the shooting phase target of Blood Lance for Assault purposes. In the absence of the FAQ I would argue that the unit may designate unit B as their Shooting Phase target, and the Librarian could choose any direction for his Blood Lance then the whole combined unit would charge unit B - even if this meant the Librarian hit Units A and B or fired the Lance 180' in the other direction from either.

 

This is how I read the power from the beginning and then I actually believed it to be a good power. But as it seems, it's not how it works... Don't think I'll ever take it on anything but a Libby Dread perhaps.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I've never seen the lance as that effective when we can just load up on meltas. The shooting then choosing which squad to assault is a bit complicated it seems.

 

G :lol:

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

DV8, this below quote, next to a similar silly explaination in the Space Wolves FAQ, seems to be the basis of your point:

 

If you declare the Target unit for the squad first, and then cast Blood Lance that hits another unit first before continuing to hit the Target unit, you violate the Shooting Attack rules.

 

And all other situations and twists and turns come from that fact, am I correct?

 

Well, this is where there is a great logical phallacy in both the FAQ and your point. As nowhere is it stated that a shooting attack that is not simply a roll-to-hit situation should hit it's intended target first.. or at all for that matter.

 

For example:

Say I have an Assault 1 Blast weapon and I shoot it at Squad A, together with all other shooting of my squad. Yet it scatters and lands such that it hits models of Squad B only.

Does that change the fact that Squad A was my target, yet the RNG of Scattering made it such that I did not hit my target?

And, for that fact; does that also make it impossible for that squad to charge now because they need to pick one of two targets, and no matter which they choose it will be illegal for a part of their squad?

And for that fact; what is the difference between a Blast weapon that scatters, and a psychic power with a variable range when it comes to the risk of not hitting the intended target?

Also: Template weapons, when declaring a target, just need to hit 1 model of the target unit and can hit any number of models from other units if this results in them hitting more enemies, and the target unit does not even have to be the 'first' hit. This also does not change the target of that Shooting attack.

So why do Psychic Shooting attacks with variable range lines need to be handled differently than Blast and Template weapons?

 

This FAQ explaination in both the Space Wolves and Blood Angels FAQ is just stupid and completely ignores logic, ease of use of rules and other similar situations in Shooting.

I will never play it this way because of that very simple fact. Now if only GW wasn't too proud to admit their mistake and logical phallacy and remove or rewrite the FAQ answer.