Blood lance conundrum

[DV8]

DV8, this below quote, next to a similar silly explaination in the Space Wolves FAQ, seems to be the basis of your point:

 

If you declare the Target unit for the squad first, and then cast Blood Lance that hits another unit first before continuing to hit the Target unit, you violate the Shooting Attack rules.

 

And all other situations and twists and turns come from that fact, am I correct?

 

Incorrect. The basis of my argument is four fold:

 

1. As the Blood Angels FAQ states, the Librarian can only Assault the first unit/model hit by Blood Lance.
   
2. The only remotely similar power is Jaws of the World Wolf, whose FAQ states that the first unit/model hit is, for all intents and purposes, the Target.
   
3. Unless a unit has a specific special rule that allows it to Shoot at two separate Targets in one shooting phase, it must allocate all of its shooting attacks onto one Target unit/model.
   
4. Although it has variable range, Blood Lance is still listed as a Psychic Shooting Attack, and must abide by the Shooting Attack rules.
   

 

Now, you cannot dispute any of those. Without even inferring or extrapolating any interpretation, you cannot argue against those 4 facts.

 

The problem is that Blood Lance is particularly vague on the fourth point, because it deviates significantly from the Shooting Attack rules, but it doesn't specify when it deviates (that is to say, at which point in the Shooting Attack sequence do the unique rules for Blood Lance kick in and over-rule the normal sequence of shooting). Alas then we have to make an interpretation based on the past precedent set by the only other Psychic Power in the game that behaves in a similar manner (Jaws of the World Wolf, which was FAQ'd by Games Workshop to determine that the first model hit and affected is indeed the Target model) without breaking any of the other core rules.

 

Does it complicate the usage of the power? Yes, but despite the fact that it complicates its usage slightly, it doesn't break any of the core rules. Blood Lance doesn't explicitly state that you don't need a Target, but it is listed as a Psychic Shooting Attack, which in the core rule book states that it follows the Shooting Attack sequence, deviating only when the Psychic Power tells you to. Which means that unless the power specifically says "you don't need a Target", you need a Target as per the Shooting Attack rules.

 

Yes, Blood Lance does say that you may fire the line off in "any direction", but it is simply an explicit statement of how you can fire almost any other weapon in the game (as it's implied you can fire any weapon in the game in any direction you so choose).

 

Well, this is where there is a great logical phallacy in both the FAQ and your point. As nowhere is it stated that a shooting attack that is not simply a roll-to-hit situation should hit it's intended target first.. or at all for that matter.

 

There is no logical fallacy in either argument. Both are logical sequences, but the problem is one breaks one of the core rules (that a unit with attached Characters must fire at one Target unless they have a unique rule that changes that, like Long Fangs with Split Fire, or Tau with Target Locks), and one does not. Just because an argument is incorrect does not make it any less logical, it's simply mis-interpreted or mis-informed.

 

For example:

Say I have an Assault 1 Blast weapon and I shoot it at Squad A, together with all other shooting of my squad. Yet it scatters and lands such that it hits models of Squad B only.

Does that change the fact that Squad A was my target, yet the RNG of Scattering made it such that I did not hit my target?

And, for that fact; does that also make it impossible for that squad to charge now because they need to pick one of two targets, and no matter which they choose it will be illegal for a part of their squad?

And for that fact; what is the difference between a Blast weapon that scatters, and a psychic power with a variable range when it comes to the risk of not hitting the intended target?

Also: Template weapons, when declaring a target, just need to hit 1 model of the target unit and can hit any number of models from other units if this results in them hitting more enemies, and the target unit does not even have to be the 'first' hit. This also does not change the target of that Shooting attack.

So why do Psychic Shooting attacks with variable range lines need to be handled differently than Blast and Template weapons?

 

Because they're different weapons entirely. Which is why there are different rule subsections for these types of weapons. Much like Pistol, Assault, Rapid Fire, and Heavy, etc. weapons act in different manners and thus require their own subsection of rules within the Shooting Attack rules that dictate how they behave and how they affect (or are affected) by other phases of the game.

 

Example: Units that shot either a Rapid Fire weapon or a Heavy weapon cannot make an Assault in the Assault phase. Because the two share that characteristic, does it make them equal? No.

 

That Blasts and Templates also do not need to roll to Hit their target does not mean that just because Blood Lance can do the same, that it will behave in a similar manner or according to the rules subsets of those specific weapons. You follow the core rules, and deviate only where that specific unique weapon tells you to:

1. Check Line of Sight and pick a Target
   
2. Check Range
   
3. Roll To Hit
   
4. Roll To Wound
   
5. Allocate Wounds and make Saves
   
6. Remove Casualties
   

And FYI Template weapons must maximize contact with the Target unit first. You cannot aim at your Target unit and "clip" one model, to maximize hits on another unit. In either case, the fact that the Blast or Template weapon hurt another unit is a non-issue because it doesn't change the fact that your intended and (key point here) declared Target was one unit.

 

This FAQ explaination in both the Space Wolves and Blood Angels FAQ is just stupid and completely ignores logic, ease of use of rules and other similar situations in Shooting.

I will never play it this way because of that very simple fact. Now if only GW wasn't too proud to admit their mistake and logical phallacy and remove or rewrite the FAQ answer.

 

Then you'd be playing against the rules. Just because it's illogical does not make it any less "RAW".

 

 

DV8

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Then you'd be playing against the rules. Just because it's illogical does not make it any less "RAW".

 

No I would not, as a FAQ answer is _not_ a rule. The FAQs themselves specifically say this.

A FAQ is just an interpretation of an unclear rule. The point I am making is that it should have never been a FAQ in the first place as what the target is is very clear: It is a Pyschich Shooting attack so you declare a target before you do anything else. It is step 1 of the whole Shooting process.

As you said, the Psychic power does not change this fact compared to normal shooting according to it's specific rules so it is still part of the process.

 

 

But the key point here really is FAQ =/= Rules so you cannot say I am playing against the rules when I am not following a FAQ interpretation of a situation.

[DV8]

Blood Lance is clearly a grey area, and (much like Jaws when it first saw the light of day) is very open to interpretation dependent on where you see it over-ruling the core Shooting Attack rules.

 

...

 

The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'. They are, of course, useful when you play a pick-up game against someone you don't know, or at tournaments (i.e. when you don't have a set of common 'house rules' with the other player). However, if you disagree with some answers and prefer to change them in your games and make your own house rules with your friends, that's fine. In fact we encourage you to shape the game around your needs and your taste. We firmly believe that wargaming is about two (or more!) people creating a gaming experience they are both going to enjoy. In other words, you might prefer to skip the FAQs altogether and instead always apply the good old 'roll a dice' rule whenever you meet a problematic situation.

 

Games Development, November 2008

 

Games Workshop's FAQs are their in-house interpretations and, as they are the writers of the Codex, one would presume it is as close to the writers intent as possible (meaning that the FAQs present the interpretions the rules as they were intended to come into effect by the authors).

 

You are correct in that you don't have to follow the FAQ. Neither do I, but that doesn't change the fact that we still have the issue at hand. Now there are three possible solutions:

 

1. Dice off
   
2. House-rule it
   
3. Follow the FAQ
   

 

The first is a compromise when no on-the-spot solution can be found and is used to expedite the situation and return back to the game.

 

The second is an alternate to following Games Workshop's FAQ, but I can equally choose to play my own interpretation of the rule just as easily as you can. A house-rule is a communally agreed upon solution wherein a circle of gamers who game together collectively decide that a rule should be played thusly (any rule, any manner). But we do not game together. You may or may not accept my house rules (if I had any) just as easily as I may or may not accept any of your house rules (if you had any). The fact of the matter is, we are here in an online forum to debate this ruling in as logical a manner as possible, and if I may say so myself, in as official a manner as possible. An FAQ produced by the Games Workshop Development Team has more sway than your or my house rule.

 

The reason they (Games Workshop) produce their FAQs is to provide the official interpretation of the rule. Whether you agree with it or not, the FAQ provides the expressed intent of the writers of the Codex, which brings me to point three, and why we're here.

 

I am arguing from the perspective of the existing FAQs and past precedent set by past (up to date) FAQs and the core rules. I honestly can't tell which point you're trying to argue (either for or against). You are correct (and perhaps I over-stepped myself) when you say that if you aren't following the FAQs, you aren't playing "by the rules" but the fact of the matter is, even the FAQs are useful in interpreting what is the rules (in this particular instance, Blood Lance). The FAQs are a means by which we establish the intent of the authors and of the Game Developers, and in a way they are a subset to the rules themselves (that is to say, they are the interpretations of the authors, but they have given us the gamers liberty to re-interpret the grey areas of the rules should we see fit, so long as the collective has agreed upon it).

 

 

Then you'd be playing against the rules. Just because it's illogical does not make it any less "RAW".

 

No I would not, as a FAQ answer is _not_ a rule. The FAQs themselves specifically say this.

A FAQ is just an interpretation of an unclear rule. The point I am making is that it should have never been a FAQ in the first place as what the target is is very clear: It is a Psychic Shooting attack so you declare a target before you do anything else. It is step 1 of the whole Shooting process.

As you said, the Psychic power does not change this fact compared to normal shooting according to it's specific rules so it is still part of the process.

 

The problem is it isn't clear. That's the point. Like Jaws of the World Wolf, Blood Lance takes the Shooting Attack rules and walks all over it (not as much as Jaws in some respects). The issue is at what point does Blood Lance push the Shooting Attack rules to the ground and start kicking it in the face?

 

And your statement only further supports my point.

 

 

DV8

[Cleon]

Re-reading the FAQ I believe the situation in the only applies if the Librarian is on his own.

 

The FAQ states "If the Librarian wishes to assault...." If the librarian is attached to a unit the Librarian does not assault, the unit assaults and the Librarian moves with it as part of the unit. If the Librarian is on his own the FAQ ruling applies to prevent game abuse with the targetting rules (such as targetting a combat squad, hitting and destroying a Dreadnought standing infront of them on the way through and then charging the scouts).

 

This might be oversimplifying things, but it provides a logical and simple way of interpreting and acknowledging both the rulebook and the FAQ without disregarding either or causing further issues.

 

I'd be interested to hear if you have any objections (even RAW based) to this interpretation.

[DV8]

Re-reading the FAQ I believe the situation in the only applies if the Librarian is on his own.

 

The FAQ states "If the Librarian wishes to assault...." If the librarian is attached to a unit the Librarian does not assault, the unit assaults and the Librarian moves with it as part of the unit. If the Librarian is on his own the FAQ ruling applies to prevent game abuse with the targetting rules (such as targetting a combat squad, hitting and destroying a Dreadnought standing infront of them on the way through and then charging the scouts).

 

This might be oversimplifying things, but it provides a logical and simple way of interpreting and acknowledging both the rulebook and the FAQ without disregarding either or causing further issues.

 

I'd be interested to hear if you have any objections (even RAW based) to this interpretation.

 

It's an interesting interpretation, but my only qualm is, whether alone or not, as a Shooting Attack (psychic or otherwise) a Target must be declared. If you shoot a weapon (of any type), you must Assault whatever your Target was, with the exception that should you destroy a transport, you may Assault the now disembarked passengers. The question, at this point, is how does Targeting work for the Blood Lance, whether the Librarian is running solo, or attached to a unit?

 

So it still doesn't bypass the issue at hand, unfortunately.

 

 

DV8

[Cleon]

If the Librarian is with a unit, the unit declares a target (which the whole unit will attempt to shoot) and the Librarian must aim the power in such a way as to hit the unit, if it clips other units on the way its irrelevvant as the target is already declared and locked in. (If you are claiming the target is changed that would make the other shooting illegal).

 

There would only be doubt as to what the target is if the Librarian is the only model shooting, otherwise there is no question to be answered.

[dswanick]

If the Librarian is with a unit, the unit declares a target (which the whole unit will attempt to shoot) and the Librarian must aim the power in such a way as to hit the unit, if it clips other units on the way its irrelevvant as the target is already declared and locked in. (If you are claiming the target is changed that would make the other shooting illegal).

 

There would only be doubt as to what the target is if the Librarian is the only model shooting, otherwise there is no question to be answered.

Nowhere in my version of the Blood Angels Codex or FAQ can I find anything indicating that the first highlighted statement is true. Evderything I can find indicates that the Librarian may fire the Blood Lance in "any direction" the owning player chooses.

The second highlighted statement is directly contradicted by the FAQ.

[Cleon]

The first statement you highlight is erring on the side of caution, the power is a psychic shooting attack, and if the unit is shooting the main rulebook states you can't target a shooting attack (including psychic) elsewhere. The any direction I take to mean in this context that you don't have to aim at the closest model in the target unit.

 

The second statement is not contradicted by the FAQ as I mentioned above, the FAQ only refers to a situation where a Librarian is assaulting, it makes no reference to the shooting of a unit containg a Librarian, nor the assault move of a unit containing a Librarian, therefore I assume these would be treated as normal (i.e. declare a target, shoot target, assault if in range).

[DV8]

If the Librarian is with a unit, the unit declares a target (which the whole unit will attempt to shoot) and the Librarian must aim the power in such a way as to hit the unit, if it clips other units on the way its irrelevvant as the target is already declared and locked in. (If you are claiming the target is changed that would make the other shooting illegal).

 

There would only be doubt as to what the target is if the Librarian is the only model shooting, otherwise there is no question to be answered.

 

EDIT: I am retracting my previous statement, Cleon is right. As a Psychic Shooting Attack, you need a Target (thus a valid enemy unit) in order to fire off Blood Lance. It's a moot point because there's no sense to fire off the power into nowhere (as you're risking Perils in the Warp for nothing).

 

Insofar as the irrelevance of other units clipped on the way, you are both right and wrong, in a way. And this is really what this entire debate (as far as I understand it) is all about.

 

Codex Blood Angels, p63

The Blood Lance

This power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

 

Blood Angels FAQ, p2

Q: Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack that can hit multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit(s) is he permitted to assault?

A: Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance.

 

Codex Space Wolves, p37

Jaws of the World Wolf

As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain. Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test (see Characteristic Tests in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook). If the model fails the test, it is removed from play. Monstrous creatures may subtract one from their dice roll due to their tremendous size and strength, though remember that the roll of a 6 is always a failure.

 

Space Wolves FAQ, p3

Q: Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e., impassible terrain)?

A: As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects - in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!

 

I've quoted in the entirety both the Blood Lance and Jaws of the World Wolf rules, as well as their respective relevant FAQs. So lets break this down shall we?

 

Blood Lance is a Psychic Shooting Attack. As per the Shooting Attack rules (to which Psychic Shooting Attacks must abide), the Librarian must follow a set sequence:

1. Check Line of Sight and declare a Target
   
2. Check Range
   
3. Roll To Hit
   
4. Roll To Wound
   
5. Allocate Wounds and make Saves
   
6. Remove Casualties
   

 

Blood Lance, much like Jaws of the World Wolf, changes the sequence somewhat. Instead of a pre-determined range, Blood Lance has a 4D6" range. Blood Lance also automatically hits. Jaws, on the other hand, changes at the "Check Range" state, removing steps 3 through 5 and replacing them with only one: Make an Initiative test on the specific models the line touches.

 

So once models have been hit, we are in agreement that the use of both Blood Lance and Jaws are simple enough.

 

The issue then, is Step 1, and how it affects the Assault phase. I return to Jaws because it is the only power that behaves in a manner closest to Blood Lance. Both are Psychic Shooting Powers that, instead of rolling to hit, hit automatically by touching models with a straight line that extends straight out from the Librarian/Rune Priest.

 

Jaws of the World Wolf allows the Rune Priest to draw a straight line, 24" in length, in any direction (implicit), so long as the line touches the board (explicit), meaning Jaws cannot hit models that are above ground/board level. Per the FAQ, the first model the power affects is treated as the "Target" (or the unit of the model is part of a unit), and so the Rune Priest must charge said unit if he wishes to launch an Assault. If the Rune Priest is attached to a squad, that squad must also shoot at the Target unit (unless it's a Long Fang Pack with the Pack Leader's Split Fire rule), and then charge that unit in the Assault phase should they choose.

 

Blood Lance allows the Librarian to draw a straight line, 4D6" in length, in any direction (explicit), meaning Blood Lance can be fired diagonally and even vertically. Per the FAQ, the first unit the power affects is the only unit the Librarian can charge if he wishes to launch an Assault. Per the core rules, a Shooting Attack needs a Target, and if you shoot, per the Assault rules, you can only charge the Target model/unit you shot at. Working backwards then, if the first unit hit is the only unit the Librarian is allowed to Assault, wouldn't you agree that said "first" unit is implicitly the declared Target? So if the Librarian were attached to a unit, said unit must also shoot at the Target "first" unit, and any Assaults must be launched against said Target "first" unit.

 

The issue becomes more complicated if you declare the squad's shooting first, and then cast/fire the attached Librarian's Blood Lance. Because the unit does not have any special rule that allows it to Target multiple enemy units, all shooting must be declared against the same Target unit. If you declare the squad's shooting first, with intervening units between your unit and the declared enemy Target unit, than the Blood Lance must not touch any models along the way until it hits that Target unit.

 

Squad + Librarian ---> Blood Lance ---> Enemy Unit A ---> Enemy Unit B

 

Should Enemy Unit B be the declared Target for the "Squad's" shooting, if the Librarian wishes to cast/fire Blood Lance as well, the line that passes through Enemy Unit A must not touch any of the models in that unit, or else it would make Enemy Unit A the target, invalidating the Squad's shooting, and creating a whole muck-a-muck.

 

 

DV8

[Judaz]

I still think you're looking too hard for the target. The target is still the unit the librarian (and the unit) aims for, not the unit that gets hit first.

 

Note that the FAQ declares that jaws don't get a target unit, but a target model. Since jaws deals with models and blood lance deals with units, I really don't think we can use the FAQ and rules for jaws on our blood lance at all.

[dswanick]

I still think you're looking too hard for the target. The target is still the unit the librarian (and the unit) aims for, not the unit that gets hit first.

That's great, except that the unit is required to assault the target of its shooting while the Librarian must assault the first unit hit by his Blood Lance - therefore if the unit targeted in the shooting phase isn't also the first unit hit by Blood Lance then no unit may be charged according to RAW.

[Judaz]

I still think you're looking too hard for the target. The target is still the unit the librarian (and the unit) aims for, not the unit that gets hit first.

That's great, except that the unit is required to assault the target of its shooting while the Librarian must assault the first unit hit by his Blood Lance - therefore if the unit targeted in the shooting phase isn't also the first unit hit by Blood Lance then no unit may be charged according to RAW.

 

I know, I've written just that a couple of times in this discussion :huh:

[Morticon]

Thanks for keeping it civil in here guys. Decent debate going on here. Keep it coming. Interesting read.

[Morticon]

Blood Lance allows the Librarian to draw a straight line, 4D6" in length, in any direction (explicit), meaning Blood Lance can be fired diagonally and even vertically. Per the FAQ, the first unit the power affects is the only unit the Librarian can charge if he wishes to launch an Assault. Per the core rules, a Shooting Attack needs a Target, and if you shoot, per the Assault rules, you can only charge the Target model/unit you shot at. Working backwards then, if the first unit hit is the only unit the Librarian is allowed to Assault, wouldn't you agree that said "first" unit is implicitly the declared Target? So if the Librarian were attached to a unit, said unit must also shoot at the Target "first" unit, and any Assaults must be launched against said Target "first" unit.

 

But you dont shoot per the assault rules. You use shooting rules to shoot/target.

 

You cant use an implication of assault to back track to see who you can shoot at. The game doesnt work that way.

 

If you follow that sequence you get to a "hitch" where you appear to have a contradiction of a core rule. This is where the "codex trumps core" or "FAQ trumps codex" rule comes in. Following the FAQ this "issue" vanishes.

 

We've targetted second unit (for arguments sake), but must assault the first unit as per the FAQ ruling.

 

I still see no issue with this beyond the inference made above, which is hardly explicit.

 

Its exactly like having smoke launcher rules in the core rule book, the DA(BT) dex having old launcher rules and the FAQ confirming that we use old launcher rules.

We follow the procedure, launch the smoke, use the rules to determine the effect, yet the codex lists a contradicting condition, which the FAQ supports. We cant then turn around saying thats a contradiction. Well, technically it is, but its a contradiction validated by the FAQ. Which makes it a rule.

 

I feel this is the same situation for Lance.

 

Also, I feel any and all inferences, parallels and comparisons to JAWS are inconsequential and irrelevant since the wording for JAWs is different (and specifically states the target).

 

 

In summary, the sequence for me with Libby + Squad is:

 

1: Libby and Squad pick target (say for argument sake squad :D

2: Libby and squad measure range (line passes through A)

3: Roll

4: As per core rules the squad must charge targeted unit, however the FAQ trumps this and tells us that the Libby must charge Squad A.

5: Libby must charge squad A.

 

 

Thoughts?

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

So the way Morticon calls it, which is a very reasonable reasoning of the rules and FAQ, it does not say we have a situation where the unit + Libby cannot assault but we have a situation where the Libby must assault 1 unit, and the squad the other.. forcing the entire unit (including Libby) to combi-assault the enemy.

 

Am I correct Mort?

[dswanick]

@Morticon - My thoughts? You brought up a few good points.

@DV8 - I agree with Morticon that your highlighted quote is off. You don't work backwards to infer anything in WH40K. What you suggest about working backwards to determine the target for assault would be analogous to saying that because you are forced to go to ground by a pinning weapon you work backwards and get a cover save against that weapon - which is directly contradicted bythe rules in the BRB.

 

I'm curious about my earlier thought about the mistaken statement, an example of which is

4: As per core rules the squad must charge targeted unit, however the FAQ trumps this and tells us that the Libby must charge Squad A.

A valid assault doesn't have to be against the "targeted" unit, it has to be against the "unit shot at" - a subtle but important difference, normally irrelevant when a unit can only shoot at one target, but important here.

So:

Shooting Phase

1. Libby/Unit checks line of sight and picks a target. Player picks unit B which is directly behind unit A, and visible.

2. Libby/Unit checks range, and finds Unit B to be 5.5" away. Shooting may commence because Unit B is within the range of the units Bolt Pistols.

3. Unit rolls to hit with its Bolt Pistols, scoring several hits. Libby rolls a Psychic test to use Blood Lance and succeeds. The player does not have to roll to hit, instead he rolls 4d6 for a total of 14. The player traces a straight line from the Libby to unit B which also passes through unit A. Each unit is hit once per the text of Blood Lance. The unit has now shot at Units A and B.

4. Wounds, saves, casualty allocation, Leadership tests are handled as normal per the shooting phase.

Assault Phase

1. The Libby/Unit moves. Per the Basic Rulebook the unit must assault a unit it shot at, which is either Unit A or Unit B because the Libby is part of the unit the combined unit which has "shot at" two units this turn. Per the Blood Lance FAQ the Libby must assault the first unit struck by Blood Lance, which is Unit A. Therefore the only valid assault move is for the unit to assault into unit A with the Libby (as characters are usually required to move first), and then a possible multi-assault into Unit B if it is possible to do so following the multi-assault rules in the BRB.

This interpretation seems without error to me. And it breaks no rules that I'm aware of (at 4:30am, sorry if my brain is fuzzy). It hinges on the useage of the words "shot at" versus the idea of "targeted unit".

[DV8]

Interesting points. I hadn't thought about my sequence of thought as working backwards, but the points you (Morticon and Dswanick) make are valid. Like I mentioned before, I can see how the power can work in either situation, because logically both make sense (at least to me). I only draw repeated inferences to Jaws because it's a power that works in almost a similar manner.

 

I don't have my rulebook on hand with me, so I will have to double check because as Dswanick brings up, if indeed the Assault rules are worded as "shot at" versus "Targeted" (I think it does, I will have to re-read those rules in full to get the exact wording) it does change my argument significantly (because my qualm is with the fact that as Psychic Shooting Attacks, Blood Lance still requires a Target, while the FAQ forces him to charge the first unit affected by the Lance.)

 

My concern then becomes an issue of the significance of the phrases "shot at" side by side with "the first unit affected by". Take a Blast weapon as an example. Assume you have two enemy units side by side, A and B. You Target unit A with, for argument's sake, an assault 1 blast weapon. You roll the scatter and the blast scatters far enough to completely miss unit A, but it hits unit B instead, inflicting casualties on them instead. For all intents and purposes, you Targeted unit A, you shot at unit A, the shot just happened to deviate to hit unit B. If you were to then launch an Assault, assuming you were in range, I think nobody would argue that you had to Assault unit A.

 

In this particular instance, it's less random because you know if Blood Lance will or won't pass through other enemy units. The issue then (assuming you are correct with the distinction in the Assault rules with "shot as" vs "Targeted"), is how do you determine which unit the Librarian and the squad "shot at"? The FAQ forces the Librarian, should he choose to launch an Assault, to charge the first unit affected by Blood Lance.

 

Librarian + Squad ---> Blood Lance ---> Enemy Unit A ---> Enemy Unit B

 

Assume the Squad targets Enemy Unit B, which is 5.5" away, and with Blood Lance the Librarian strikes Enemy Unit A first. Because Enemy Unit B was the Target and was "shot at" by the Squad, per the core rules they must charge Enemy Unit B. The Librarian fired Blood Lance and the first unit affected by the power was Enemy Unit A. Per the FAQ, the Librarian is given permission to Assault a different target from the one his squad Targeted and shot at. A character can only join or leave a squad during the Movement phase. Once the Shooting phase has started, he cannot leave the squad until the start of the player's next Movement phase, assuming the squad isn't falling back. So at this point, the Librarian can assault Enemy Unit A while the Squad assaults Enemy Unit B, provided they maintain coherency while still allowing the Librarian to make BtB with Enemy Unit A and the squad to make BtB with Enemy Unit B.

 

This scenario hinges on the fact that the phrase "first unit affected by" is not equivalent to "shot at" (and thus isn't something prevented by the core rules).

 

Would this then mean that if either the Librarian and their Squad cannot reach (in Assault) the units they "shot at" while maintaining coherency, would the Assault be considered a failed Assault?

 

There is also the issue of determining the "Target" for Blood Lance. As a Psychic Shooting Attack it still requires a Target, that much cannot be contested. The matter of determining the "Target", in the case of Blood Lance, simply means picking an enemy unit and firing Blood Lance directly toward it, hitting everything on the way. This then brings up a few more questions. Does the power come into play regardless of whether the 4D6" is enough to hit the Target unit? And if the Librarian is attached to a Squad, wouldn't the Target for Blood Lance have to be the same Target for the Squad's shooting? (Since the FAQ does give permission to break the normal sequence of Assaults, it doesn't give permission to break the normal sequence of picking a Target for shooting, vis a vis, a unit has to all shoot at the same Target).

 

@_@ It's like I'm trying to explain time travel paradox or quantum physics...I need to go lie down...

 

 

DV8

[vonny]

I actually think you may have a problem with the FAQ wording for the JotWW.

 

It says that the power works like a shooting attack, and thus the wolf priests needs to be able to see it's target as per normal shooting rules. to prevent rule abuse this 'target' is the first model in path of JotWW.

 

however, when the priest is in a unit, you check los for shooting for the whole unit. Does it mean the whole unit suddenly fails to shoot if the priest was silly enough to stand behind a wall while the rest has clear LOS? As per normal shooting rules I believe (don't have the book with me) you pick a target for the unit as a whole. The faq may say "As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects", does that mean the whole squad needs to see that model as well, or can they target the unit that the model is attached to?

 

As per normal shooting rules... Another example that comes to mind is a flamer. If you have unit a (on lone gretchin survivor) in front of unit b (large mob of orks), are you forbidden to shoot at unit b because the flamer will have to pass over the gretchin?

 

And if you really want to get fun with psychic shooting attacks - Tyranids have psychic shooting attacks that automatically hits friendly units (preventing them from charging that turn), or psychic shooting attacks that hit EVERY enemy unit within a certain distance (and you can charge any of them).

 

I think the FAQ ruling here is intended as has been said before - to prevent you lancing that dreadnought on your way to charging the scouts.

[dswanick]

Another point to consider, if my assertion in this regard is true, is how this logic would affect units firing a flamer which ends up hitting more than one unit. The same logic could be used that the unit has "fired at" two units and now may charge either. :)

[DV8]

I actually think you may have a problem with the FAQ wording for the JotWW.

 

It says that the power works like a shooting attack, and thus the wolf priests needs to be able to see it's target as per normal shooting rules. to prevent rule abuse this 'target' is the first model in path of JotWW.

 

You are correct. The Rune Priest (not Wolf Priest :P ) requires Line of Sight to the first model hit for Jaws of the World Wolf

 

however, when the priest is in a unit, you check los for shooting for the whole unit. Does it mean the whole unit suddenly fails to shoot if the priest was silly enough to stand behind a wall while the rest has clear LOS? As per normal shooting rules I believe (don't have the book with me) you pick a target for the unit as a whole. The faq may say "As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects", does that mean the whole squad needs to see that model as well, or can they target the unit that the model is attached to?

 

No, because so long as one model in a squad can see the enemy unit, the entire enemy unit can be hit. HOWEVER, you check Line of Sight for each member in your own squad to see if they have Line of Sight to shoot. If I was daft enough to put the Rune Priest behind a wall (and thus with no LoS), then only he can't shoot. If the rest of the unit can see the enemy unit (even just 1 model, and it can be the same model), than assuming I'm in range, they can all shoot, and the entire enemy unit can be hurt.

 

As per normal shooting rules... Another example that comes to mind is a flamer. If you have unit a (on lone gretchin survivor) in front of unit b (large mob of orks), are you forbidden to shoot at unit b because the flamer will have to pass over the gretchin?

 

No, because if you Target Unit B (the mob of Orks) and attempt to maximize the flamer template, and still manage to hit the Unit A (the lone Gretchin), the Gretchin still gets clipped. You could then charge Unit B assuming they're not all dead, broken, and within Assault range. The reverse is true, you can Target Unit A (the line Gretchin), and still land hits on Target Unit B, but you would then charge Unit A assuming he's not dead, broken and within Assault range.

 

There's no issue here because Template and Blast weapons have their own clear cut rules. The problem is Psychic Shooting Attacks, which all follow the core rules for shooting, but each is unique because each power has its own rules and descriptions.

 

And if you really want to get fun with psychic shooting attacks - Tyranids have psychic shooting attacks that automatically hits friendly units (preventing them from charging that turn), or psychic shooting attacks that hit EVERY enemy unit within a certain distance (and you can charge any of them).

 

I think the FAQ ruling here is intended as has been said before - to prevent you lancing that dreadnought on your way to charging the scouts.

 

Which Tyranid powers are you refering to?

 

The Horror, Leech Essence, and Paroxysm are Psychic Shooting Attacks that automatically hit a single enemy unit.

Catalyst, Dominion, Aura of Despair, and Hypnotic Gaze are simply Psychic Powers (buff or debuff).

Warp Blast and Warp Lance are Psychic Shooting Attacks that give you a specific weapon profile. Essentially it's "here's the weapon, now pick a Target and shoot it as normal).

 

The only two powers that work like you suggest:

 

Onslaught is a Psychic Shooting Attack that automatically hits a single friendly unit within 12". I would agree this power prevents the caster from Assaulting this turn, as well as firing any other weapon (since Monstrous Creatures don't have rules allowing them to Target multiple units), as it can't deliberately shoot at a friendly unit.

 

Psychic Scream is a Psychic Shooting Attack that automatically hits all non-vehicle enemy units within 2D6". At face value, yes this would seem to present a similar problem, but consider the difference. Psychic Scream automatically jumps in at the first step and tells us that the power doesn't need LoS (it automatically hits non-vehicle enemy units within the radius). It also tells us we don't need a Target for this power (remember, a Hive Tyrant can't Target more than one enemy unit), simply that it hits automatically all non-vehicle enemy units within range (2D6"). There's no confusion, and if the Hive Tyrant fires another weapon, it can be any other unit hit by Psychic Scream. If the Hive Tyrant has a retinue of Tyrant Guard (who don't have guns), they can then charge any of the units the Hive Tyrant hit with Psychic Scream.

 

The issue is that Blood Lance doesn't clarify at which point of the Shooting Attack sequence it jumps in, and whether or not a Target is still required.

 

Another point to consider, if my assertion in this regard is true, is how this logic would affect units firing a flamer which ends up hitting more than one unit. The same logic could be used that the unit has "fired at" two units and now may charge either. :)

 

Damn your ninja posts. I'll have to re-read my rulebook to clarify this particular instance. This is heavy stuff for 9:30 in the morning.

 

 

DV8

[Judaz]

Darn, this is complicated!

 

First I read it like the librarian had to assault the first unit hit, and the unit couldn't assault if the other shot at another unit with thier bolr pistols.

 

But now, when dswanick bring up the exact wording of the rule: shot at, I don't know what to believe anymore.

 

Most of the times it isn't a problem because the unit will fire at the enemy unit they will assault, but with blood lance theese rules can be bent a little. I have to wait and read a little more before I can make up my mind about this :)

[DV8]

Darn, this is complicated!

 

First I read it like the librarian had to assault the first unit hit, and the unit couldn't assault if the other shot at another unit with thier bolr pistols.

 

But now, when dswanick bring up the exact wording of the rule: shot at, I don't know what to believe anymore.

 

Most of the times it isn't a problem because the unit will fire at the enemy unit they will assault, but with blood lance theese rules can be bent a little. I have to wait and read a little more before I can make up my mind about this :)

 

To be fair, who's actually gonna use Blood Lance anyways? As a power (in comparison to the other Blood Angels powers) it's rather lackluster (I find, anyways) and not as utilitarian, and so I don't think it'll see much use beyond certain armies built around it.

 

 

DV8

[vonny]

Psychic Scream is a Psychic Shooting Attack that automatically hits all non-vehicle enemy units within 2D6". At face value, yes this would seem to present a similar problem, but consider the difference. Psychic Scream automatically jumps in at the first step and tells us that the power doesn't need LoS (it automatically hits non-vehicle enemy units within the radius). It also tells us we don't need a Target for this power (remember, a Hive Tyrant can't Target more than one enemy unit), simply that it hits automatically all non-vehicle enemy units within range (2D6"). There's no confusion, and if the Hive Tyrant fires another weapon, it can be any other unit hit by Psychic Scream. If the Hive Tyrant has a retinue of Tyrant Guard (who don't have guns), they can then charge any of the units the Hive Tyrant hit with Psychic Scream.

Exactly. Now if we forget about the faqs for a second (especially the space wolf one as jotww is similar, but not the same), the same is actually true for blood lance as you quoted it.

 

pick a direction - roll 4d6 - everything in the line is hit automatically. It's the same as a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits every unit within its radius like psychic scream. It never tells us it needs a target, it doesn't even tell us it needs los, just that it effect works for any unit hit within the prescribed area, which in this case isn't a radius but a line.

[DV8]

Exactly. Now if we forget about the faqs for a second (especially the space wolf one as jotww is similar, but not the same), the same is actually true for blood lance as you quoted it.

 

pick a direction - roll 4d6 - everything in the line is hit automatically. It's the same as a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits every unit within its radius like psychic scream. It never tells us it needs a target, it doesn't even tell us it needs los, just that it effect works for any unit hit within the prescribed area, which in this case isn't a radius but a line.

 

Actually re-read the Blood Lance rules:

 

Codex Blood Angels, p63

The Blood Lance

This power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

 

Versus:

 

Codex Tyranids, p62

Psychic Scream

This is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits all non-vehicle enemy units within 2D6" of the Hive Tyrant. All units hit must immediately take a Leadership test. If they fail the test they suffer a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armour saves allowed.

 

Psychic Scream is clear at which point it intercedes (the Check Line of Sight and Pick a Target step) by stating specifically that every non-vehicle enemy unit within X radius is hit automatically.

 

Blood Lance is not, which really is why we're having this debate in the first place. Blood Lance for absolute surety kicks in at the Range phase (a 4D6" line), but before that (the Check Line of Sight and Pick a Target) step isn't mentioned (and more importantly) isn't overwritten by the Blood Lance's rules.

 

 

DV8

[vonny]

I really don't see the difference between the two. You establish the area of effect (everything within 2d6" from the tyrant and everything in the stated direction within 4d6" of the librarian), and then that everything withing that area of effect is, indeed, affected.