Ravenwing questions

[Tanhausen]

Well, project 2011 is on: Ravenwing.

 

So here I come with a few questions. Note: I only own the codex in Spanish... so bear with my translations!

 

The unit is 3 bikes + AB, and I want to outflank using the scouts rule.

 

P.27 C: DA, "In a similar fashion like combat squads, the attack bike [...] are deployed at the same time as the bikes in the squad [...]"

 

Question 1.- So... I roll 1 time for the 3 bikes + AB (both for reserves and to check what side they come from) and the moment they start moving, they split?

 

P.23 C: DA "The units in reserve cannot combat squad and viceversa"

 

Question 2.- Huh? So I can't outflank or leave in reserves the unit because they are considered separate units?

 

Please help me out, because this buddy insists I can't outflank because I'm combat squadding... and he even talked to a GW employee (yikes! hurray for clarity) and he said my buddy was right... and this guy is a bit rules lawyer.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

question 1 : yes, you roll once for the whole squad.

 

question 2: doesn't affect bikes+ attack bikes. it means that you cannot split a ten men squad into two while in reserve. 3 bikes + attack bikes are not considered a combat squad, but for example 6 bikes splitting into 2x three bikes are a combat squad thus cannot be split while in reserves.

 

I can't remember if the FAQ mentions this, might worth to take a look on the FAQ.

[Tanhausen]

Obrigado Lucifer :P

 

I checked FAQ last night and didn't find anything.

 

The problem comes due to all the "combat squad" issue with the AB. I understand that 6 bikes either deploy together or go by reserves together, thats clear.

 

The thing is that when they arrive, they split... and my friend insists that is combat squadding and i can't do it :)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Maybe pg 27 will help. It defines a RW combat squad as 2x 3 men team. attack bike is always deployed at same time . They go as far as defining how points are awarded, stating that the actual combat squad is the bike team, not the attack bike. The wording isn't great but you can really read that the AB isn't part of the combat squad.

[breng77]

I have to agree with lucifer. It states that the attack bike is always a separate unit, and describes that it and the speeder are purchased and deployed at the same time, but are separated units, not combat squads. No where in the entry does it describe them as being combat squads/ or combat squaded

[Tanhausen]

IIRC, the AB (when reading the Fast Attack section in the end, where you choose the load outs)... it has "Combat squad", so that's the problem.

 

I mean, I'm 100% positive I CAN outflank, but this guy does get a bit obnoxious sometimes...

[breng77]

I see that I guess, but in the earlier description it says that it is not, this is a person I would not play against if he is going to rules lawyer that much. I mean really you are already playing DA, and he thinks you need to be nerfed even more :D. The nerve of him.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

IIRC, the AB (when reading the Fast Attack section in the end, where you choose the load outs)... it has "Combat squad", so that's the problem.

 

I mean, I'm 100% positive I CAN outflank, but this guy does get a bit obnoxious sometimes...

 

 

he's reading too much into into. Combat squads obviously doesn't apply to attack bikes because you can't combat squad an attack bike (imagine a guy in a bike and a multi melta in a monocycle). Both bikes and attack bikes are included on those points because land speeders don't benefit from any of those rules.. and attack bikes clearly only benefit from 2 out of 3.

 

I would try to call him to reason one more time, explaining things in detail as I'm sure you've already done many times.

[Tanhausen]

The "problem" is he's an auditor (whatever the word is in English: those guys the company pays to check your balances at the end of the year, like Ernst&Young) and I'm a lawyer... so we keep making fun of each other when someone is innacurate or makes a mistake (for example, he keeps forgetting to roll for Red Thirst... and remembers on his turn 4!)

 

Since the last couple of times he's been correct when correcting me (for example, I thought that if you removed the DCCW, you got S6 but still was power weapon... not anymore), he's feeling confident now :lol:

 

Thanks for the help!

[Tanhausen]

Update on the rules lawyer...

 

1.- p.85, he insists that both bikes and AB have Combat Squads, hence I can't reserve. This I see weak and will probably convice him.

 

2.- He quotes a WD!!!!! WD143 to be exact, which has a BatRep from when DA came out. Does anybody have this one handy? He says it says that the squad cannot go into reserve because it is combat squadding... though I asked if it was a 3 or 6 bike squad and has yet to reply.

[breng77]

Not sure if it is the correct issue. The only WD I remember with Ravenwing was from when the codex was released. The only squads that I recall were full squads including the speeders I believe.

[Isiah]

Combat squads rule is there to enable you to split your unit when it is deployed. All the non-splitting in reserves rule refers to is not being able to deploy one combat squad element unit, then wait for the next reserves roll to deploy the other combat squad element.

 

All elements of the unit must come in at the same time and are then split into combat squads on hitting the table.

 

BTW: don't bother looking at WDs - they often get the rules wrong :).

 

 

Cheers

I

[ValourousHeart]

Had to chime in at this gross injustice.

 

First of all check the first entry of the FAQ, that entry removes the restriction from C:DA that prevents combat squads from being held in reserve.

Full stop... That should kill your opponents current argument.

It doesn't stop him from trying a different tactic to try to prevent you from playing your full rules.

 

Next up you have interpreted how outflanking works.

Yes it is one single roll for the entire unit to come in from reserves because page 27 says that they are deployed at the same time.

But once you have established that the Attack Squadron is available each unit rolls independently for which side they come in on for their outflank move.

So 6 bikes (combat squaded) and attack bike would make 3 outflank rolls.

 

Also the speeder does not prevent the bikes from outflanking.

Why, because you do not hold units in Outflank... you hold them in Reserves.

Nothing prevents the speeder from being held in reserve.

And nothing says that the attack bike and speeder have to be in coherency with the bikes... quite the opposite is stated on page 27 where it says that they operate as independent units.

Once held in reserve you then opt to outflank with units that have either scout or infiltrate.

So 6 bikes and attack bike can come in from normal reserves or in an outflank move... the speeder can only come in with a normal reserve move.

 

Hope this helps

 

-------

*edit*

I have the WD with the new DA codex battle report, but haven't re-read it yet.

The number is 326... not sure if the numbers are different in different parts of the world.

But it came out in March 2007.

But considering that the FAQ was released October 2009 you shouldn't have much trouble establish which takes precedence.

[exsulis81]

Val is correct. Per the faq; we are to remove that last part of the paragraph. Which is the crux of his argument, and until the current faq it was muddied waters regarding this rule.

 

Previously, your friend was kinda correct we couldn't combat squad if the unit was coming from reserve in any way shape, or form. And it really sucked whenever escalation missions hit in 4th ed.

[Tanhausen]

Thanks for all the replies!

 

I can't check FAQ at work (if someone feels like sending them to me, drop me a PM and I'll give you my mail :) ) but I'll have to print them :)

 

I think WD have different numbers in different regions: he talks about the one when C : DA came out, so its probably the same.

 

Now all his argument has shifted to p.85 where it says both bikes and AB have "combat squads".... but probably seeing that p.27 forces to split the AB he won't insist.

 

Cons: this buddy is getting on my nerves

Pros: I'm learning quite precisely where rules are :)

[Dark Dajin]

Well, project 2011 is on: Ravenwing.

 

Heya Tanhausen, keep us updated on your Deathwing! And we want our surprise :huh: :P

[Tanhausen]

I was wondering if someone would ask about that :tu:

 

I need to find some time and now I'm starting to get it: I finished my masters degree! :) In january I take my 2 last Law exams (boy do I hate that degree) and if everything works out properly, as of February 1st Ill be a free man with my weekends free!

 

Here goes my promise: you'll have a significant update by tuesday 28th at night.

[Dark Dajin]

Ooh five days, huzzah.

 

But yeah, you're right those degrees are important, no work, no models right? :)

[Tanhausen]

Correct.

 

Just you wait till I become GW COO... xD

[SeattleDV8]

From the DA faq

"Errata

Page 23. Combat Squads, third paragraph.

The paragraph’s last sentence should be deleted,

and the penultimate sentence should be changed

to:

‘If you decide to break the unit down, then each

Combat squad is treated as a separate unit for all

game purposes from that point.’"

 

So it removes the line about 1/2 or more of the unit must be alive to count as scoring and the line about reserves.

Also DA came out in 4th ed. What ever the WD said is out of date.

[IanSturrock]

Ooh, Tanhausen, when you become GW COO, give me a job! (10 years experience as a game designer, lecturer in game design, just starting a PhD in game design... but GW don't want me to work for them in case I tell them how to design a balanced codex.)

[Tanhausen]

@Ian

 

You wouldn't want to work for GW... mixing hobby and work is not a very good idea ^_^ Its better to see it from outside and just whine about how bad they do it and how well you'd do it :)

 

@Dark Dajin

 

Check the post in my sig ;) Its a bit underwhelming (at least from my side, I'd like to deliver more) but... no point in pushing it further! I'll do what I can the soonest I can!

[Tanhausen]

Ok, here we are for some more whinning :tu:

 

I've player 8 games with RW and the score is 2-1-5. Tested vs Nid, BA, SW, Salamanders, Daemon and Eldar.

 

The victories were vs nids and salamanders and the tie vs SW (soooooo close, almost my victory).

 

The main issues I have right now are:

 

1.- How to deploy and when?

 

Basically this means when going for reserves, when deploying, when scouting and how to be effective whilst staying out of assault

 

2.- How to remain on the move.

 

I tend to be aggresive in the first 2 turns, get into the thick of the fight and get stopped/bogged and eventually thinned out to death.

 

So, want to help out a bike Brother?

 

1.- When should I reserve?

 

2.- When should I deploy?

 

3.- How could I remain on the move and avoid getting "netted"?

 

Thanks!

[breng77]

1. and 2.) I would almost always reserve at least part of the army (I often reserve the whole thing) that way you can outflank with some bikes, this also shortens the game, so the 2 agressive turns are 2 and 3 or 3 and 4, not 1 and 2. I find scouting to be too risky most of the time unless you use very few units to do so. getting siezed = loss if you scout too agressively. The only times I really decide to not to reserve most of my army is when there is a decent amout of LOS blocking terrain, so I can hide my bikes.

 

3.) Play the mission, and only attack when you are sure you can overwhelm part of your opponents force.

[Brother Moridius]

Hey Tanhausen, figured I would tell you what has worked for me with my Ravenwing. Currently I’m 5-0 with them (still don’t know how, seems very improbable) and that’s versus Ultra Smurfs, Tau, new Dark Eldar, and Space Puppies. Plus I took part in an apocalypse game where 1.5k points first took out 1.5k of Smurfs and then proceeded to kill 1.5k worth of Salamders (that one I was just stupidly lucky). The 1 on1 games were from 1k to 2k in points and my lists were very simple:

 

1k:

Sammael on speeder

2x Ravenwing Attack Squadron – 6 bikes, 2 melta guns, Attack bike with multi melta, power weapon, Tornado Land Speeder.

 

2K:

2 more RAS as above plus an Int. Chaplain on a bike. And an apothecary and standard in one of the squads.

 

I think there were melta bombs in there and maybe a sergeant or didn’t have a pw but you get the idea. It’s pretty much the same thing over and over again.

 

Pretty much all my games I tabled my opponents by reserving/out flanking everything (with Sammael hiding behind terrain turn 1) and then when I come on I try to focus in very small areas and remove all models. Usually I split up all my squads even in Kill Point scenarios to have that much more maneuverability.

 

For close combat I try to charge only with good odds, so the Chaplain on bike plus 6 man squad with banner which will kill pretty much everything except super dedicated CC squads, or with horrible outnumbering, as in 12 bikes versus 3 marines sorta thing.

 

The main thing I’ve found is to never spread out too thin. Even if you come in from all sides go for ¼ to maybe ½ your opponents army, take out vehicles with all the melta and then just dakka dakka regular troops down with the land speeders.

 

Anyways hope that helps a bit, pretty sure I’ve been very lucky so far and sooner or later I will get tabled instead but so far my army has done very well for me.

 

Cheers,

Moridius

 

PS sorry for the super long post.