The HH novels.

[Pulse]

Before the HH novels were released the Primarchs were these glorious beings, each a tactical genius and each were unique displaying different skills and mindsets. Yes, they were brothers and they did bicker and were known to punch lumps out of each other, as brothers do, and would try to shine and gain favour infront of their father the Emperor.

 

My view on the Primarchs certainly has changed since the books were released i have to admit. Gone is their mystical, god like aura to be replaced with what are no more than genetically engineered/enhanced children. They squabble far more than i would have thought and to be honest some of the Primarchs (Russ - A Thousand Sons) comes across as no more than a complete retard that cannot see anything past the end of his sword.

 

The only Primarchs i think that have come out of this series of novels in good order are Horus, Dorn and Sanguinius, suprisingy all in the first three books of the series, and by far the best books over all. Oh and Magnus in A Thousand Sons but even he doesn't seem to be the enlightened character the fluff tells us about.

 

What are your views?

[Brother Decimus]

I have to admit that Fulgrim had always appeared to me to be quite snooty and a bit of a blaggard... But after reading these novels, Fulgrim is far more sophisticated and popular, as well as awe-inspiring.

 

Still a perfectionist, but in more of a "good guy" way, shame he turned to chaos really.

 

 

Good to see that Angron is just as hell-tempered as I'd have expected, and with the odd exception all of the primarchs appear to have a cool-calm about themselves, which is also what Id want from a demi-god of sorts.

[Gv0zD]

I wouldn't say that my opinion of the primarchs changed after reading HH novels. I'd say the novels stressed my imperssion of them after I read Index Astartes articles. I tend to agree with OP that Sanguinius' image is likely to be unchanged, but this heavily depends on forthcoming Blood Angels-related novel (I hope there will be one ;) ). As for the other primarchs, well, they were never godlike persons to me, at least not godlike in the meaning of perfection. They had a human 'component', and they had fallen to the temptaions of the warp and their own relations. And all this was already described in IA articles, so there is nothing completely new in HH novels (of course they broaden the description of the Legions and the primarchs, but still they only improved what had already formed).

 

However there are some changes. I.m kinda sorry for Horus, but still he was weak to resist the temptations... I think that what was done to Magnus was unfair, but still he was too arrogant... I want to read Prospero Burns to learn more of Russ, as I currently dislike him, and want to get more in-depth insight into his nature.

 

In conclusion I'd say that the HH novels describe the primarchs' human nature, but it has to be there, as in their essense they were still only humans :)

[A D-B]

As a result of the HH series, I like some of them more, and some of them a lot less.

 

It all comes down to presentation and preconception, I guess.

 

I tend to agree with OP that Sanguinius' image is likely to be unchanged, but this heavily depends on forthcoming Blood Angels-related novel (I hope there will be one :)

 

There will be. Jim Swallow has publically said that it'll be his next one.

[Lucifer216]

God-Emperor, no!

 

<sits down>

 

"I feel a great disturbance in the warp, as though thousands of Blood Angel fans cried out at once and then fell silent."

 

That said, I thought Flight of the Eisenstein was a vast improvement over the Blood Angel novels and I guess the news hardly comes as a surprise. Hopefully, we won't have a repeat of the latter <crosses fingers>.

[Piousservant]

I tend to agree with OP that Sanguinius' image is likely to be unchanged, but this heavily depends on forthcoming Blood Angels-related novel (I hope there will be one ;)

 

There will be. Jim Swallow has publically said that it'll be his next one.

 

*Feels the Black Rage approaching* :verymad:

 

 

:ermm:

[A D-B]

I'm deadlined to hell today, so I need to keep this brief.

 

People's complaints about the Blood Angels novels seem to be (from what I've read in reviews and my insanely comprehensive forum journeys) mostly concerned with the first 2 novels, and way the Blood Angels were related as dealing with a Chapter-wide event that hasn't shown up anywhere else in canon. Feedback on the second duology has been much better, and Jim's Horus Heresy novels are widely regarded as pretty damn killer.

 

So, if I may be irritatingly blunt, I think where Jim's concerned as a writer, there's nothing to worry about. Yes, he took liberties in the first Blood Angel duology, and yes, I avoided the novels myself for that reason, for several years. I said as much to him, one of the first couple of times we met. He gave me a knowing smile (he does those well; he's a hell of an industry veteran, with a lot of good war stories) and said he completely understood it.

 

In a lot ways, Black Library was a different beast even as recently as 5 years ago, which is about when those novels came out. Different editors now, different writers, different outlook, different attitude. Even the writers that were around then are doing different things now. Evolution, progress, change - all that good stuff. I can't speak for Jim, but I can say I know he loves the Blood Angels, and I think he's written some absolutely killer stuff. I loved the Death Guard's traditions so awesomely highlighted in Eisenstein. I loved the character of Nathaniel Garro. I loved the way Nemesis showed the war slowly, slowly edging closer to an Imperial world, before drowning it in the full drama of galactic civil war. It was dead clever, and a nice touch. It resonated.

 

I reckon I can put your doubts at ease here, with a simple mathematics equation.

 

The Blood Angels + Sanguinius + Signus Prime + Ka'Bandha = Awesome.

 

You have one of the most beloved Legions in the setting, with one of the most-liked primarchs (perhaps even the most-liked primarch overall), betrayed by Horus on a world full of daemons. Sanguinius will show up for the first real time, flying around, fighting a Bloodthirster. Chaos will go up against the freaking Blood Angels, and it will fail. The origins of one of their famously cool and popular gene-seed curses will play out before our eyes.

 

Let me be clear with where I'm going here:

 

The novel could be written by a monkey and it would still be amazing with that storyline. The fact it's written by a guy with a great Horus Heresy track record is just gravy. Jim will nail this one, and nail it hard. No doubt in my mind.

[Doghouse]

Personally speaking as a long fang I've seen more of a development process rather than a distinct change. Back in RT we had Imperial Commanders rather than Primarchs and it wasn't until Space Marine the epic system came along that they came into the spot light mentioned in a brief paragraph but with no indication of superhuman powers separating them further from the marines. They were portrayed mostly as marine commanders, horus being General Horus before being given the title of war master.

 

When the IA articles came along we got the first indications of them being much deeper characters, up until this point the only real description of a primarch had been with Russ when he had a mini released (but this was no towering giant of a model but was the size of a regular marine) and there was very little to distinguish the characters of the others.

With these articles we saw for the first time that they were very much individuals and in some cases, to my shock, mutants that could divine the future or even had wings. This was a bit unsettling at first, mutants in the astartes was something that had never occurred before other than psykers but it was their individual character traits that began to shape the marine chapters into what we know today.

 

For me the novels took this to a much deeper level as you began to see their flaws in greater scrutiny which expanded on the real reasons as to why so many of them turned on their father and gives us much greater insight into their true natures.

I think that it has worked out very well so far because from the perspective of the current present day of 40k they are always portrayed as mighty heroes of old but in the context of the setting of the heresy novels you see them as they really were. Something that would probably ring true of many of our real life heroes and villains that are held in great esteem or despised equally I guess.

[Pulse]

@Doghouse - I see what you mean mate, but these were not ordinary beings. The Primarchs were created by the Emperor for the purpose of leadership, giving them all the traits and strengths they need to lead Legions of the most deadly warriors in mankinds history. Most of the time though, the Primarchs are portrayed as nothing more than oversized children, with a desperate need to prove to everyone and themselves they are right for the role. Two of them can barely get on even just talking to each other trivially, the conversations are full of idle threats amd barbs, like they actually have to get one over on each other before anything else like actual tactics or a campaign can take place.

 

As for the military side of things, there is nothing in the books to suggest any of the primarchs were in anyway tactically supreme. Being a soldier myself, everything i have read in the books so far is less advanced than today. It is a shame that most of the authors don't research combat or at least research MORE of it because quite frankly some of it is terrible. Yes, yes, i know they are walking suits of armour and so wouldn't need to go through intricate routines but they are not invulnerable.

[A D-B]

@Doghouse - I see what you mean mate, but these were not ordinary beings. The Primarchs were created by the Emperor for the purpose of leadership, giving them all the traits and strengths they need to lead Legions of the most deadly warriors in mankinds history. Most of the time though, the Primarchs are portrayed as nothing more than oversized children, with a desperate need to prove to everyone and themselves they are right for the role. Two of them can barely get on even just talking to each other trivially, the speach full of idle threats like they actually have to get one over on each other.

 

But they've been like that since the beginning. The Index Astartes articles - even the RT/older edition background - has had primarchs fighting over nothing; hating each other; falling to Chaos for spurious reasons, and so on. Nothing's changed, it's just detailed more over 400 pages, rather than 400 words.

 

Ultimately, the primarchs weren't perfect. For every positive element in their presentation, there's a negative. They're mythic figures, like the Greek Gods. It's not about them being cool soldiers, dude. It's about them being literal manifestations of human traits, magnified to mythological proportions, with the victories and defeats that come with such a state.

[Pulse]

But they've been like that since the beginning. The Index Astartes articles - even the RT/older edition background - has had primarchs fighting over nothing; hating each other; falling to Chaos for spurious reasons, and so on. Nothing's changed, it's just detailed more over 400 pages, rather than 400 words.

 

Ultimately, the primarchs weren't perfect. For every positive element in their presentation, there's a negative. They're mythic figures, like the Greek Gods. It's not about them being cool soldiers, dude. It's about them being literal manifestations of human traits, magnified to mythological proportions, with the victories and defeats that come with such a state.

My niggle is that some authors have made them out to be worse than they were from older background. The fact some of the authors haven't really added anything to a primarch saddens me a tad, i would have thought one of the main reasons for these novels were to show the primarchs as complete person, but they just seem to be making them out to be more and more childish.

 

I definately agree that they are mythic figures and i wouldn't want them to just be outright mega soldiers, as that would take away from their charm.

[Doghouse]

Yeah I think that it boils down to them being such mythical figures and the bickering that goes on is mostly due to brotherly competition taken to the extreme by extreme beings.

Basically other than each other and of course the Emperor they have no equal amongst men and had they been raised together on Terra then they may well have become a cadre of true brothers. Just look at poor old Angron, if he had been raised on Terra with a strict regime then he may well have turned out to be a well adjusted individual but because of the environments that were raised each had their own experiences that set them apart from their brothers.

In most cases the have become great leaders amongst their people and suddenly this guy turns up to explain that he created them and gives them the details of their true purpose.

Horus was probably the luckiest of them all being discovered first at a relatively early age, none of his brothers seem to have any problem with him and he had the luxury of being in a position of assuming the role of eldest brother not because he was older and more mature but because he was schooled under the Emperor.

 

I think that in terms of tactics it is more of a case of the story taking influences from medieval, first world and mythical campaigns rather than the modern warfare that we know today. I think it's more of a case of tactics on a larger scale where someone like Alpharius might be more inclined to fight the way that you are used to with much smaller actions in comparison to the other Legions.

 

The bickering and infighting amongst the brothers is pretty much a plot hook that leads to the heresy much in the same way as such other mythical stories such as King Arthur and the knights of the round table have their own plot hooks.

You have the idea of the ideal but someone introduces an element that beyond the control of the characters and everything gets ruined.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

First, the books have changed my view on them. They now seem like super-soldiers as opposed to expert tacticians and amazing leaders.

 

Second, I think the reason they constantly squabble is that they are so much better than every one else that they need someone to compare themselves to.

[Gv0zD]

Chaos will go up against the freaking Blood Angels, and it will fail.

 

May I put this quote in my sig? If you don't mind.

 

 

As for mr. Swallow's novels, I haven't read his BA novels, but both his HH novels are very good IMHO.

 

And I really like the comparison of the primarchs with Greek gods - they were the divine beings and still had those human traits like envy and ambitions.

[Pulse]

Yeah I think that it boils down to them being such mythical figures and the bickering that goes on is mostly due to brotherly competition taken to the extreme by extreme beings.

Second, I think the reason they constantly squabble is that they are so much better than every one else that they need someone to compare themselves to.

 

That is true, but still it is always taken to the breaking point in then novels.

 

Horus was probably the luckiest of them all being discovered first at a relatively early age, none of his brothers seem to have any problem with him and he had the luxury of being in a position of assuming the role of eldest brother not because he was older and more mature but because he was schooled under the Emperor.

Magnus was schooled by the Emperor as well.

 

I think that in terms of tactics it is more of a case of the story taking influences from medieval, first world and mythical campaigns rather than the modern warfare that we know today. I think it's more of a case of tactics on a larger scale where someone like Alpharius might be more inclined to fight the way that you are used to with much smaller actions in comparison to the other Legions.

I can understand that but even that is starting to get redicous, lol. Astartes are the ultimate warrior and so should act like it rather than just marching into war as if nothing can touch them.

 

The bickering and infighting amongst the brothers is pretty much a plot hook that leads to the heresy

True but the whole "My father doesn't love me and my brothers hate me so i must forge my own way.. wait a sec, a daemon is seducing me, i am so in" is pretty lame. I thought it would be more complex than that and more info brought forward in the novels. That hasn't come around and so these so called "strong willed" individuals are pretty damned weak.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Have the HH novels changed my view of the Primarchs? Not really. I expected most of them to be basically one-dimensional characters prone to the same human failings as everyone else only writ large. I'm getting what I paid for in that regard, because by and large they're all kinda douchey as well as being exhilirating: just like humanity as a whole is.

 

What they have done for me is paint the Emperor into being something of a huge d-bag. I'd always suspected he was a shady kind of schemer, but I'd never contemplated the possibility that he was just an all-around nasty individual, which with few exceptions he's basically become as the Heresu blossoms.

[Commissar Joe]

I reckon I can put your doubts at ease here, with a simple mathematics equation.

 

The Blood Angels + Sanguinius + Signus Prime + Ka'Bandha = Awesome.

 

You have one of the most beloved Legions in the setting, with one of the most-liked primarchs (perhaps even the most-liked primarch overall), betrayed by Horus on a world full of daemons. Sanguinius will show up for the first real time, flying around, fighting a Bloodthirster. Chaos will go up against the freaking Blood Angels, and it will fail. The origins of one of their famously cool and popular gene-seed curses will play out before our eyes.

 

Let me be clear with where I'm going here:

 

The novel could be written by a monkey and it would still be amazing with that storyline. The fact it's written by a guy with a great Horus Heresy track record is just gravy. Jim will nail this one, and nail it hard. No doubt in my mind.

 

 

This actually gave me goosebumps; that's how much of a nerd I am.

[c-wrex]

I think that in terms of tactics it is more of a case of the story taking influences from medieval, first world and mythical campaigns rather than the modern warfare that we know today. I think it's more of a case of tactics on a larger scale where someone like Alpharius might be more inclined to fight the way that you are used to with much smaller actions in comparison to the other Legions.

I can understand that but even that is starting to get redicous, lol. Astartes are the ultimate warrior and so should act like it rather than just marching into war as if nothing can touch them.

 

Just wait until we get an Ultramarine novel. Probably on Calth, ultimately. There your wish will be granted. Those guys are supposedly the greatest human soldiers, greatest Astartes soldiers, ever. I only hope someone does it justice.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I need to step in and defend Russ here.

 

The Russ we saw in a Thousand Sons was a Russ seen through the eyes of Ahriman, a Russ in battle showing the persona he developed for that role. I think too many people forget that a Thousand Sons is a book deliberately written from a biased perspective. It's what a Monty would of thought of Patton or what patton would of thought of Monty.

 

As to the HH series, I like the way the Primarchs have been revealed as flawed, Human creations. The two that stand out to me are Fulgrim and Lorgar, Fulgrim and the First Heretic are, to my mind, the best books of the series to date.

[Gv0zD]

The Russ we saw in a Thousand Sons was a Russ seen through the eyes of Ahriman, a Russ in battle showing the persona he developed for that role.

A hidden side of Russ. Oh, I'm tempted to read Prospero Burns. I really think that it would be good to learn of the same events from SW's point of view. And it must pretty interesting to know how Magnus was seen by the Wolves and other loyal sons of the Emperor. Too often Magnus is portrayed more like a martyr than an arrogant sorcerer too confident in his abilities and power.

[NightrawenII]

I think that in terms of tactics it is more of a case of the story taking influences from medieval, first world and mythical campaigns rather than the modern warfare that we know today. I think it's more of a case of tactics on a larger scale where someone like Alpharius might be more inclined to fight the way that you are used to with much smaller actions in comparison to the other Legions.

Uhm, if you think that the medieval warfare was just about charge headlong at the enemy, then you will be suprised.

 

Even the knights, an epitome of T&S density, sometimes pulled out acts of tactical acumen or brilliant manoeuvre.

 

Another thing to note is that the Primarchs are *often* described as the commanders without peer. And this is of course the crux of the problem. To be able to write about tactical genius, you had to have at least *some* military understanding, which most of the BL authors lack.

Sorry A D-B, I haven't read any of your novels, so I can't say.

[Lucifer216]

Actually, that could make for an interesting discussion in and of itself. What principles underpin tactical and strategic thinking and how can they best be applied in the 41st millenium with concessions to "rule of cool".

 

Personally, I'm of the firm opinion that Sun Tzu's The Art of War is probably the best place to start, while "On War" by Clausewitz was so painfully obtuse that I gave up.

 

Off the top of my head the most important principles appear to be:

 

Concentration of Force

Logistics

Fact based decision making

The acquisition of reliable intelligence

Clarity of objectives with the goal of achieving an end to hostiles with the minimal expenditure of resources.

Keeping morale high

 

In addition, a competent commander should work to deny his opponent all of the above, through the use of "smoke and mirrors" to conceal his position and force the enemy to spread out his forces, attacks on supply lines and encirclement, the use of provocations, disinformation and propaganda.

 

I think part of the problem that Black Library authors face is the way in which space superiority changes the equation. In addition, how much "tactical or strategic genius" can really be demonstrated on the scale of a conventional 40K novel? The acme of tactical skill is surely a case of efficient use of cover, "fire and movement" by disciplined and highly trained experienced troops. A good example of this is Dawn of War II (the single player mode of which I thoughtly reccommend to any space marine fan).

 

Let's suppose the game (in which you have control of four space marine squads) is being played by a Primarch with all the intelligence that implies. Every unit is positioned optimally, eliminates its targets in the most efficient manner possible. As a result casualties are kept to an absolute minimum and the kill-ratio goes up significantly as a result, but that's about it.

 

Where genius is more likely to make itself felt is in the bigger picture. What are the Space Marines trying to achieve. What are their mission objectives? Have the human and other resources allocated to the mission optimal (i.e. enough to get the job done with acceptable losses, but not overblown, etc).

[Piousservant]

In a lot ways, Black Library was a different beast even as recently as 5 years ago, which is about when those novels came out. Different editors now, different writers, different outlook, different attitude. Even the writers that were around then are doing different things now. Evolution, progress, change - all that good stuff. I can't speak for Jim, but I can say I know he loves the Blood Angels, and I think he's written some absolutely killer stuff. I loved the Death Guard's traditions so awesomely highlighted in Eisenstein. I loved the character of Nathaniel Garro. I loved the way Nemesis showed the war slowly, slowly edging closer to an Imperial world, before drowning it in the full drama of galactic civil war. It was dead clever, and a nice touch. It resonated.

 

It's kinda funny, but I forget that the same guy who wrote, ah, those books, also wrote Nemesis...

 

That does make me feel a little better I must admit.

[Pulse]

Another thing to note is that the Primarchs are *often* described as the commanders without peer. And this is of course the crux of the problem. To be able to write about tactical genius, you had to have at least *some* military understanding, which most of the BL authors lack.

Exactly. For me i think if your going to write battle scenes in books authors really need to read up heavily on the subject. I think so far the best Astartes manouvering i have read have come in Horus Rising. Also the combat from A D-B books are pretty damned good.

 

Let's suppose the game (in which you have control of four space marine squads) is being played by a Primarch with all the intelligence that implies. Every unit is positioned optimally, eliminates its targets in the most efficient manner possible. As a result casualties are kept to an absolute minimum and the kill-ratio goes up significantly as a result, but that's about it.

 

Where genius is more likely to make itself felt is in the bigger picture. What are the Space Marines trying to achieve. What are their mission objectives? Have the human and other resources allocated to the mission optimal (i.e. enough to get the job done with acceptable losses, but not overblown, etc).

I agree with you on both points. The talent of the individual primarch should come through on the bigger picture but in the novels it doesn't, thats the point. I can imagine its pretty damned hard to write novels and put yourself in the place of the primarchs at points in history, but sometimes the way some of them are described, they are very narrow minded and often don't see a problem until its right in front of them, and in certain novels it is a legion officer who will come up with a solution not the actual primarch. Obviously thats a reason why a primarch will have experienced officers around him to chip in with ideas, but the majority of the novels it is always a legion officer who does the thinking.

[Doghouse]

Uhm, if you think that the medieval warfare was just about charge headlong at the enemy, then you will be surprised.

 

I know all about medieval warfare, used to be a weapons instructor, I was referring to the larger scale engagements over smaller modern day skirmishes. :)