The HH novels.

[Razhbad]

When it comes to tactics we know that the Primarchs are suppose to be superior genius with huge intellects that can come up with the greatest strategies to win wars.

 

Remember the Authors who write the books are just human, they are not super genius. So a book about a super genius tactician will never be able to reflect this. Thats why we have to use our imagination. The same applies when writing Alien species, the Authors think like humans and so it is difficult to write the Alien. Hence why we the audience are ment to use our own minds to imagine that the Primarchs are the greatest tacticians ever.

[NightrawenII]

Uhm, if you think that the medieval warfare was just about charge headlong at the enemy, then you will be surprised.

I know all about medieval warfare, used to be a weapons instructor, I was referring to the larger scale engagements over smaller modern day skirmishes. :P

This is wrong too, though. :to:

The conflicts in medieval were more about raids and skirmishes rather than one decisive battle.

 

Another thing, the *large* army of this era was force of about 10,000 men. That's one regiment of IG in the W40k.

[Doghouse]

The battles of the medieval period were most certainly not skirmishes. The War of the roses wasn't fought with skirmishes and is late medieval, the Battle of Towton armies combined were said to come to forty to forty five thousand soldiers, Louis XIV of france was said to have had four hundred thousand and by todays standards, which was the point that I was making, is considered extremely large.

Medieval conflicts being skirmishes? Try telling that to the french at Agincourt. :rolleyes:

 

The armies of 40k and their fighting style owe more to these larger medieval battles than they do modern conflicts which is why I stated as much when talking about the primarchs commanding their legions.

[Gv0zD]

The conflicts in medieval were more about raids and skirmishes rather than one decisive battle.

Dude, with all due respect, the Medieval conflicts were indeed fought with large decisive battles.

Medieval conflicts being skirmishes? Try telling that to the french at Agincourt.

That's true - a good example of a large decisive battle.

The armies of 40k and their fighting style owe more to these larger medieval battles than they do modern conflicts which is why I stated as much when talking about the primarchs commanding their legions.

I second. Of course there are skirmishes in 40k battles, especiall the Space Marine surgical strikes, but the battles during the Great Crusade are definitely more similar to Medieval battles.

[Pulse]

The battles of the medieval period were most certainly not skirmishes.

Depends on what period within the medieval you mean. The medieval period starts 5th century AD, early battles around that period in northern europe especially were small skirmishes between small to medium warbands/armies. Go forward to the 750s King Offa was banding together his kingdom into a damned strong force in England, and then on to Alfred in the 850s. Add into the mix Charlemange who fought many huge battles at the time.

 

Battles really started to become huge though, on a consistent basis when the Normans came to power all over europe. Their desire for land and power really pushed everything forward in terms of battles and tactics.

 

The armies of 40k and their fighting style owe more to these larger medieval battles than they do modern conflicts which is why I stated as much when talking about the primarchs commanding their legions.

Yeah i suppose your right, lots of bludgeoning of foes in the name of the Emperor. Although i would have assumed for the Legions anyway that close combat was only used when it had to be, after the shooting phase of battle at least. Unlike many chapters of 40k that are close combat based.

[Marshal Rohr]

By no means do I claim to be anything more than an avid reader of medeival history, no where near a historian or even a student, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

 

All these comparisons are relative. 40K is no more similar to medeival than it is to modern standards. It would be silly to say that the warfare in a setting with lasers and explosives is closer to warfare fought with edged weapons and spears, just as it would be silly to say that warfare fought with automatic rifles, machine guns, and guided munitions is similar to warfare fought with gigantic landbattleships and man portable fusion packs.

 

However, the tactics and strategy could be similar. A double envelopment is the same when its done by Hannibal as when its done by Macharius. Trench warfare strategies would be the same on the Western Front and Vraks. The means to accomplish your strategies will obviously vary with the setting and abilities of the fighting forces.

 

 

For instance, in Afghanistan the US still uses the same tired, ridiculous 'firebase' idea that was so popular in Vietnam. If a Space Marine was forced to fight from a 'firebase' in similar conditions to the ones we fight in now, he would be forced to use the same methods (at a great waste of his abilities).

[Pulse]

All these comparisons are relative. 40K is no more similar to medeival than it is to modern standards. It would be silly to say that the warfare in a setting with lasers and explosives is closer to warfare fought with edged weapons and spears, just as it would be silly to say that warfare fought with automatic rifles, machine guns, and guided munitions is similar to warfare fought with gigantic landbattleships and man portable fusion packs.

Its a muddled up mix of both to be honest. Its evident in every peice of background pretty much from the word go.

 

However, the tactics and strategy could be similar. A double envelopment is the same when its done by Hannibal as when its done by Macharius. Trench warfare strategies would be the same on the Western Front and Vraks. The means to accomplish your strategies will obviously vary with the setting and abilities of the fighting forces.

This is true, tactics such as those no matter who does them at whatever period in history will never change.

 

 

For instance, in Afghanistan the US still uses the same tired, ridiculous 'firebase' idea that was so popular in Vietnam. If a Space Marine was forced to fight from a 'firebase' in similar conditions to the ones we fight in now, he would be forced to use the same methods (at a great waste of his abilities).

Yep, pretty much sucks using outdated firebases. UK use them as well, and half the time we can't do anything other than sit in the middle of enemy territory and wait to be resupplied while we hold off attacks. Definately right though that an Astartes would have to follow the same basics in a situation like that.

[NightrawenII]

The battles of the medieval period were most certainly not skirmishes.

You are misunderstanding or I was nor clear enough, for that I'm sorry.

 

The most wars in medieval were fought via raids and skirmishes not regular battles, because everyone were avoiding decisive battle(s) like plague. The Agincourt, Bouvines or Najero are good examples of huge battles, but these are expceptions rather than rule.

 

If you don't believe me, find out what preceded the battle of Agincourt. :lol:

[Doghouse]

No you're right I don't believe you. :)

[Pulse]

If you don't believe me, find out what preceded the battle of Agincourt. :D

Hmmm lets see, Battle of Crécy and the Battle of Poitiers by any chance? Both battles out of many that were fought before Agincourt that were large battles.

 

Also your missing out the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman Turks and China (to name a few) that fought large battles - bigger anyway than the battles in the hundreds years war.

 

No you're right I don't believe you. :D

Agreed.

[Razhbad]

Or perhaps The Seige of Harfleur :D

[augustmanifesto]

back to the OP, the series has changed my view of the primarchs.

 

Thousand Sons' treatment of Magnus the Red convinced me of the depths of his genuine loyalty. This had not come off nearly as strongly before. Same with his arrogance, I think.

 

First Heretic did wonders for my conception of Logar. Overall, the book helped me understand the type of obstinate faith which Logar had was premised on a demi-god quality of low self esteem and selfishness.

 

Concerning the low self-esteem, My reasoning as that after being admonished on the wayward nature of his faith, Logar became quite a pathetic being -- pathetic even for a mortal. He sulked. He groped for attention and ego-boosts from those under his command. I take this to be Logar's security and sense of self in the absence of believing himself to be in privileged connection with a mystical, higher purpose. From this perspective, I understood Logar's pathological drive to faith as one that, ultimately, has securing a reasonable degree of self-worth and psychological well-being as its primary objective

 

Concerning selfishness, Logar's ego was clearly situated in the book as willing and able to accomplish the above objective no matter the cost to others, no matter the rules broken, and without beholding itself to evidence or, frankly, even much logic (although the latter two go without saying per the nature of Faith, I suppose).

 

Quite fitting character development for the first Primarch turned to Chaos, I suppose!

 

 

 

 

But I would love to see more of Dorn. In particular, I'm interested in getting a fuller sense of him besides Emperor's praetorian, most notably his history with Perturabo. God, what I wouldn't give to write that book myself. me oh my.

[Pulse]

back to the OP

Ahem, sorry! :D

 

Thousand Sons' treatment of Magnus the Red convinced me of the depths of his genuine loyalty. This had not come off nearly as strongly before. Same with his arrogance, I think.

Agreed, i always thought he was loyal and this futher proves it for me. To be honest he has every right to be arrogant with the power he has! :D

 

But I would love to see more of Dorn. In particular, I'm interested in getting a fuller sense of him besides Emperor's praetorian, most notably his history with Perturabo. God, what I wouldn't give to write that book myself. me oh my.

I myself am looking forward to a book about Dorn. I very much hope it is either A D-B or Abnett that manage to get the chance to write it.

[ICHD?]

Not so much a Primarch, but Malcador is coming across as a bit of a whiny douche.....or is that just me?

[augustmanifesto]

Not so much a Primarch, but Malcador is coming across as a bit of a whiny douche.....or is that just me?

 

What do you mean? I haven't picked up on that, but your reading of his character that way sounds interesting.

 

On the subject of non-primarch's-but-imperial-elites-none-the-less, I must say I'm very pleased with the development of the Emperor. I particularly like the tension developing between strong hints of totalitarianism in regards to his political project and the basic reality that the Imperium still somehow seems justified nonetheless. After New Heretic, the Emperor has been developed to be much like the Old Testement God, which is interesting because that book also dealt with his enforcing the view that he is not a God. I wonder if ADB did this intentionally...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well, for me:

I like Dorn so far.

I have a more positive opinion of Guilliman man, after reading the First Heretic

I can now understand why Lorgar and Fulgrim went to chaos.

Like Horus and Sanguinius

 

I dislike Ferrus Manus. then again, he was shown as a blundering idiot, so maybe if a book shows more of him i might get a better look.

I dislike Angron (apparently he was axe crazy BEFORE the HH)

I dislike Morty and the Lion.

 

I downright hate Magnus. His arrogance damned far more than himself.

 

Until we get more on Corax, the Khan, Perturabo, Vulkan and the Night Haunter i am hesitant to say how i feel about them. Alpharius and Omegon need more screen time, and a few answers, for me to get a firm opinion of them.

 

I am holding clear judgement on Russ until i read Prospero Burns.

 

WLK

[Brother Styphus]

Thanks to the Black Library, my primarch has autism. :huh:

 

As horrible as the real thing is, Asperger's syndrome does not belong in a science fiction story about the greatest tactician. They could have portrayed Lion el'Jonson in many ways, but instead he jumps the gun on sending half of the chapter back home and craps on Logic when it came to Astelan. I understand the book series is on a publishing timetable, but don't start the biggest separation of a chapter after their first battle. This was basically what it would have been like if they had cut False Gods out of the original 3 novels.

 

If people get upset with my use of real-life illnesses, please remember the symptoms. He lacks the most basic social skills, required Luthor to speak for him and help make decisions, he has trouble connecting to others, but retains impressive cognitive skills. Thank god he hasn't fallen over yet.

[Captain Malachi]

If people get upset with my use of real-life illnesses, please remember the symptoms. He lacks the most basic social skills, required Luthor to speak for him and help make decisions, he has trouble connecting to others, but retains impressive cognitive skills. Thank god he hasn't fallen over yet.

And you try remembering that he spent the formative years of his life alone and never developed the ability to interact with other humans, added to the fact that he isn't one of them to begin with. Saying 'he has autism' as a blanket statement is frankly offensive to those of us who do have it. Never being taught how to talk to people =/= autism.

[ICHD?]

Thanks to the Black Library, my primarch has autism. :)

 

As horrible as the real thing is, Asperger's syndrome does not belong in a science fiction story about the greatest tactician. They could have portrayed Lion el'Jonson in many ways, but instead he jumps the gun on sending half of the chapter back home and craps on Logic when it came to Astelan. I understand the book series is on a publishing timetable, but don't start the biggest separation of a chapter after their first battle. This was basically what it would have been like if they had cut False Gods out of the original 3 novels.

 

If people get upset with my use of real-life illnesses, please remember the symptoms. He lacks the most basic social skills, required Luthor to speak for him and help make decisions, he has trouble connecting to others, but retains impressive cognitive skills. Thank god he hasn't fallen over yet.

 

As someone with Autism, this really offended me. The 2 DA Novels even explained that he had no social interaction of any kind, short of dismembering wild animals, in his formative years. Horus had a body of advisors, does that make him Autistic? Ditto The Emperor. Same goes for Magnus.

[LunaWolf07]

The only opinions of mine that changed were for the traitor legions… I always figured that the Primarchs weren’t perfect beings… their legions aren’t perfect… no one is perfect… but I did find myself really liking the traitor Primarchs - who they were before the heresy began... and being genuinely upset when they turned. Not that I didn’t know it was coming… but I was sad to know the 'how' and 'why'.

[Lord Tharand]

In general I've truly enjoyed the primarchs throughout the series. Some of the highlights for me:

 

Fulgrim – Because I feel his story is the most tragic thus far and prior to the book I had no idea just how much he loved the Emperor or how loyal he was. Even a chaos fueled Horus seemed saddened by his possession.

 

Dorn – He’s popped up a few times and I truly thought he was crazy in Eisenstein but by the time we get to Nemesis his better qualities have shown through.

 

Magnus – I enjoyed his character and the idea that he knew so much but ultimately was so easily tricked by chaos. His arrogance really lead him and his legion down and I enjoyed that story.

 

Ferrus Manus – It was noted a few posts up that he was more of a bumbling idiot but I disagree. I think we saw a very passionate being that was clearly hurt by the betrayal of his brother. This super overflow of emotion and rage is obviously what lead to his death and I felt his pain. It was just a good ride for the reader.

 

Corax – I’ve enjoyed his appearances in both Raven’s Flight and The First Heretic. He just exudes an air of lethality and awesomeness and profound sadness for the loss of so many sons. Where once he was just an Edgar Allen Poe rip off, now there is a breath of life in him and I enjoyed what I saw. I hope we get a little more of him.

 

Those are the primarchs that have made the biggest impact on me. I’ve enjoyed the other primarchs greatly but this group has changed how I felt about their character or actions.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Lord Tharand: FOr my opinion of Ferrus Manus, I wasnt thinking of the Dropsite Mass. when i said he was shown as a blundering idiot, i was thinking of his first apperance in Fulgrim, where a fleet of human vessels playing tag has stalled most of his legion...and the Fulgrim and company show up, look at the problem, scratch their heads and solve it in moments.

 

and yes, I am moving Corax towards "he is freaking awesome", but want to see him (as we have seen the other primarchs) before i decide on it (i only judge ferrus as his error was large upon meeting him)

 

WLK

[vonny]

My view on the primarchs hasn't really changed, I think. It has grown more complete, and with that more loving.

 

Their stories are like what a few posts above have been said - you start to love the guys and you feel genuinly sad when they turn. when horus turned I was almost shouting "listen to the wolf-shaped Magnus, you idiot! He's your brother and friend! Listen to him!"

 

The few cameo's that Dorn had so far also interest me greatly. Especially the small conversation he has with malcador in Mechanicum, when he isn't emotional about having to tear down this really really special gate, but just calculating how much time and effort it would cost and what the best defensive structure is. All business - being said about tearing it all down is for later, once the heresy is done.

 

Also, what ABD wrote about the BA book just got me squeeling in excitement in this chair here!!

[c-wrex]

I'd say the primarchs I've been most impressed by in the HH series would be Guilliman (from his First Heretic cameo, he just exuded professionalism), Corax (from the same book as Papa G, what with his Dropsite rage), and Alpharius from his novel. I'd quite like to see an actual portrayal of Vulkan apart from a few paragraphs here and there, as well as Curze and Perturabo.

[Marshal Rohr]

If you don't believe me, find out what preceded the battle of Agincourt. :D

Hmmm lets see, Battle of Crécy and the Battle of Poitiers by any chance? Both battles out of many that were fought before Agincourt that were large battles.

 

Also your missing out the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman Turks and China (to name a few) that fought large battles - bigger anyway than the battles in the hundreds years war.

 

 

Mmm, a big tasty bowl of FACT for all the weekend historians ;)

 

 

Except Doghouse, with sculpting and modeling skills like that he must be so good at everything I'd let him perform surgery on my brain without a second thought.