The HH novels.

[Gv0zD]

Their stories are like what a few posts above have been said - you start to love the guys and you feel genuinly sad when they turn. when horus turned I was almost shouting "listen to the wolf-shaped Magnus, you idiot! He's your brother and friend! Listen to him!"

 

True. I was also shouting the same things when Magnus was breaking through the Emperor's Webway. "Do not destroy your father's creation! Do you know what it will cost you?!"

 

 

Also, what ABD wrote about the BA book just got me squeeling in exitement in this chair here!!

 

Oh, I long this book so much... :D

 

I'd quite like to see an actual portrayal of Vulkan apart from a few paragraphs here and there, as well as Curze and Perturabo.

 

Yeah, those primarchs are the less described in the released books. I'd like to read about Curze, in particular. He's betrayal was motivated mostly by his own visions of future and fears, and it would be awesome to get a full picture of how Curze was consumed by his dark visions, how his psyche changed during the Great Crusade, until he was forced to flee and join Horus... With all my desire to get a Blood Angels book, I'd be even more happy if the Night Lords books is released.

[Pulse]

Mmm, a big tasty bowl of FACT for all the weekend historians ;)

:)

 

Except Doghouse, with sculpting and modeling skills like that he must be so good at everything I'd let him perform surgery on my brain without a second thought.

Hahaha not sure that you would be like if you woke up after the surgery, i dread to think. :P

[slayer138]

Yeah, the Lion is a total d-bag

[Bulwyf]

My impressions will match what many have already said: most of the Primarchs seem to be written as more or less super endowed children who through their own bumbling, ignorance or misplaced trust go about mucking up the whole galaxy.

 

There has really yet to be one Primarch that as written in the HH series alone that seems to have any ability to look outside themselves and see the potential problems looming on the horizon. I will give you that Magnus sees this but his inability to be a credible witness to warn the Emperor negates him. I have yet to see one Primarch that actually seems super intelligent or possess incredible tactical acumen. Let's be honest: these books show what kind of incredible advantage the Imperium had during the Crusade when they could simply blitzkrieg systems into compliance or annihilation.

 

The only time there seems to be any real difficulty was when the Emperor had to help Horus and some other Primarchs in defeating some Ork warboss whose name escapes me at the moment. Outside of that has there really been any situation where you as a reader felt "Wow! Its so nice that Primarch Super Pants was around in this situation to save the day!" in this series? Of course not.

 

As my sig will no doubt give away I am praying we get at least one Night Lords novel from ADB in the HH series. We deserve to know as readers why Curze was already rebelling against the Emperor before the HH even started. Was he really a split personality? Did he really do the Emperor's dirty work and when it was expedient to bring him down did the Emperor really start sending assassins after him? How much did his visions play into his decisions? What happened to the original Terran Night Lords that led to so many of them being replaced by recruits from Nostramo?

 

I can keep going but these are answers we've seen hinted at in "Lord of the Night" and ADB's Night Lords novels. Having the story properly told from Curze's POV in his own book would be fan service of the highest order.

[Pulse]

From what people have said about Guilliman from the First Heretic by A D-B, he seems the only one that has any sence of professionalism and comes across as how a primarch should. Unfortunately i can't comment on that particular book as i haven't read it yet.

[Artein]

There has really yet to be one Primarch that as written in the HH series alone that seems to have any ability to look outside themselves and see the potential problems looming on the horizon.

Alpharius?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Or Omegon? :)

[Bulwyf]

There has really yet to be one Primarch that as written in the HH series alone that seems to have any ability to look outside themselves and see the potential problems looming on the horizon.

Alpharius?

 

Ah yes, I had forgotten that part in Legion. Yes, his reason for turning to "Chaos" is the only that actually makes sense and doesn't portray the Primarch to be foolish, ignorant or extremely naive. Having someone reveal to you that either you hope humanity quickly burns itself out to die if Horus wins versus thousands and thousands of years of slow death isn't much a choice.

[Pulse]

Re-reading A Thousand Sons, just got to the part of the Council of Nikaea.

 

How does everyone feel about how Magnus was treated during the so called "trial". For me i think everyone especially his father the Emperor let him down massively. The fact the Emperor is sitting looking regretful as he watches proceedings is pretty sickening. The fact the Emperor of mankind, gave in to pressure to censure Magnus probably his most gifted son, is absolutely disgusting.

 

Thoughts?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Re-reading A Thousand Sons, just got to the part of the Council of Nikaea.

 

How does everyone feel about how Magnus was treated during the so called "trial". For me i think everyone especially his father the Emperor let him down massively. The fact the Emperor is sitting looking regretful as he watches proceedings is pretty sickening. The fact the Emperor of mankind, gave in to pressure to censure Magnus probably his most gifted son, is absolutely disgusting.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think picking any sides before reading the whole story is a mistake.

 

and of course magnus, the " unfairly persecuted" son, is going to see what he wants to see in the Emperor's manner. true arrogance doesnt allow any blame to be yours.

 

WLK

[Pulse]

I think picking any sides before reading the whole story is a mistake.

 

and of course magnus, the " unfairly persecuted" son, is going to see what he wants to see in the Emperor's manner. true arrogance doesnt allow any blame to be yours.

 

WLK

True i am probably jumping the gun.

 

It was Ahriman that noticed it, Yes blah blah blah he will probably see what he wants to see but throughout the book Ahriman is observant to everyone and doesn't really see his legion methods as any better than any other (just different) or any one individual as better than any other, so he is hardly biased.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think picking any sides before reading the whole story is a mistake.

 

and of course magnus, the " unfairly persecuted" son, is going to see what he wants to see in the Emperor's manner. true arrogance doesnt allow any blame to be yours.

 

WLK

True i am probably jumping the gun.

 

It was Ahriman that noticed it, Yes blah blah blah he will probably see what he wants to see but throughout the book Ahriman is observant to everyone and doesn't really see his legion methods as any better than any other (just different) or any one individual as better than any other, so he is hardly biased.

 

Ahriman's arroagance is better controlled than his brothers, but is still present. many times throughout the book he catches himself thinking how better than the TS's are then "mere" Marines.

 

Arrogance is present in all Marines, that cannot be denied. Every legion thought they were/knew the best...but only in the worst times have their arrogance blinded them so completely as the TSs were.

 

WLK

[Pulse]

Ahriman's arroagance is better controlled than his brothers, but is still present. many times throughout the book he catches himself thinking how better than the TS's are then "mere" Marines.

 

Arrogance is present in all Marines, that cannot be denied. Every legion thought they were/knew the best...but only in the worst times have their arrogance blinded them so completely as the TSs were.

So you wouldn't think you were something "higher" than an normal human (or Astartes depending on how you look at this) if you had the powers they had? I think it depends on the person but its accurate to think most people would see themselves as above a person/being that didn't have the same abilities you did especially if others displayed hostilty to your actions, and see negatives rather than positives in almost everything you do.

 

Admittedly, i can see how the Thousands Sons would come across from a different perspective, but if you have control on your abilites then surely what is the trouble? Alas, human nature though being afraid/concerned about things that you cannot control or understand fully.

 

Arrogance is a trait of every human, not just Astartes, to varying levels depending upon the individual and you could very very easily put the Space Wolves up there if not alongside the Thousands Sons for arrogance not just from the novels, but from background.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Ahriman's arroagance is better controlled than his brothers, but is still present. many times throughout the book he catches himself thinking how better than the TS's are then "mere" Marines.

 

Arrogance is present in all Marines, that cannot be denied. Every legion thought they were/knew the best...but only in the worst times have their arrogance blinded them so completely as the TSs were.

So you wouldn't think you were something "higher" than an normal human (or Astartes depending on how you look at this) if you had the powers they had? I think it depends on the person but its accurate to think most people would see themselves as above a person/being that didn't have the same abilities you did especially if others displayed hostilty to your actions, and see negatives rather than positives in almost everything you do.

 

Admittedly, i can see how the Thousands Sons would come across from a different perspective, but if you have control on your abilites then surely what is the trouble? Alas, human nature though being afraid/concerned about things that you cannot control or understand fully.

 

Arrogance is a trait of every human, not just Astartes, to varying levels depending upon the individual and you could very very easily put the Space Wolves up there if not alongside the Thousands Sons for arrogance not just from the novels, but from background.

 

Doesnt the fact that they suffered mass mutations from over exposure to the Warp prove that they didnt have control of their abilities?

I see their belief of control was more like a child promising to himself he'll never make the same mistake again, only to of course do so as he doesnt know any better. Thats why, IMO, Ahriman was so freaked after the mutation on Shrike. Magnus had promised that it would never happened again, and everything was safe.

 

Now, I, as a sometimes rational adult, would wonder how Magnus could make such a huge promise...but they TSs dont. they swallow everything their told ("your special, your in control, its not your fault") and pay the price for their arrogance.

 

and Maturity comes from acknowledging some things are being you, Control comes from changing what you can and tolerating what you cant, and Wisdom being the ability to know when to acknowledge your in over your head. Some things are beyond us.

 

Too bad the Thousand Sons and their primarch hadnt the maturity to see that, the control to change and tolerate their nature, nor the Wisdom to see what their actions would lead to.

 

WLK

[Pulse]

Doesnt the fact that they suffered mass mutations from over exposure to the Warp prove that they didnt have control of their abilities?

I see their belief of control was more like a child promising to himself he'll never make the same mistake again, only to of course do so as he doesnt know any better. Thats why, IMO, Ahriman was so freaked after the mutation on Shrike. Magnus had promised that it would never happened again, and everything was safe.

 

Now, I, as a sometimes rational adult, would wonder how Magnus could make such a huge promise...but they TSs dont. they swallow everything their told ("your special, your in control, its not your fault") and pay the price for their arrogance.

 

and Maturity comes from acknowledging some things are being you, Control comes from changing what you can and tolerating what you cant, and Wisdom being the ability to know when to acknowledge your in over your head. Some things are beyond us.

 

Too bad the Thousand Sons and their primarch hadnt the maturity to see that, the control to change and tolerate their nature, nor the Wisdom to see what their actions would lead to.

Over exposure does not mean lack of control - it means they lingered to long in the warp - as a person gets sun burnt staying out in the sun to long.

 

I also note that the repeating of Enumerations or mantras was a pretty big indicator that they could only keep control through the constant strengthing the Enumerations provided - they never really "controlled" anything outside of themselves.

 

I agree, Magnus failed to tell his legion that the hadn't actually solved the problem of the mutations and instead glazed over the problem by saying it wouldn't happen again. Ahriman did panic when he saw the mutation as he did think that they had solved the problem but it was the memories of his actual brother dying from the mutation. To be honest though every legion swallowed (as you put it) what their primarch said, just as the primarchs beleived what the Emperor told them.

 

You say it was too bad that their primarch didn't have the so called wisdom to see what would happen - but did anyone? The closest people got were just critisims and fearmongering. I mean its pretty clear even the Emperor did not see anything like this happening and he was staggering in power even to Magnus.

 

Btw, Happy Christmas mate - its always nice to have a decent debate with one such as yourself. ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

you mean a biased ole Wolf like me? and yes, fluff debates can make for good times! Merry Christmas to you as well!

 

The Emperor, according to the Collected Visions, warned Magnus upon the dangers of the Warp and of the entities that existed there. He took Magnus on a journey through the Warp and showed him much, and warned him of the dangers of dealing with such beings. The Emperor trusted Magnus to heed his warning. Sadly, Magnus was already promised more power and ignored it.

 

And Morty, yea, not a good character witness. But Prospero Burns has a behind the council bit where Amon of the Thousand Sons attacks Bear and a few Adeptus Custodes with his gifts...and then used them to elude capture. maybe this was a demonstration of what those that were against Magnus feared?

 

and lets remember that Ahriman was not concious for many of the detractors' arguements, which i kinda thought was a cop out from McNeil. made me think of fox news to be honest, by only showing the worst of the against and the best of the for arguements!

 

I think the interactions between Wrydmake and AHriman make for a fascinating look into the differing approaches the two Legions took in dealing with psychic abilities. Ahriman's "control" as opposed to Wyrdmake's "funneling". they both tapped the same source of power for their abilities, but did so in (IMO) radically different ways. this is an important distinction to me, as looking at it you can also get a view of the two Legions as a whole.

 

WLK

[Pulse]

you mean a biased ole Wolf like me? and yes, fluff debates can make for good times! Merry Christmas to you as well!

 

The Emperor, according to the Collected Visions, warned Magnus upon the dangers of the Warp and of the entities that existed there. He took Magnus on a journey through the Warp and showed him much, and warned him of the dangers of dealing with such beings. The Emperor trusted Magnus to heed his warning. Sadly, Magnus was already promised more power and ignored it.

 

And Morty, yea, not a good character witness. But Prospero Burns has a behind the council bit where Amon of the Thousand Sons attacks Bear and a few Adeptus Custodes with his gifts...and then used them to elude capture. maybe this was a demonstration of what those that were against Magnus feared?

 

and lets remember that Ahriman was not concious for many of the detractors' arguements, which i kinda thought was a cop out from McNeil. made me think of fox news to be honest, by only showing the worst of the against and the best of the for arguements!

 

I think the interactions between Wrydmake and AHriman make for a fascinating look into the differing approaches the two Legions took in dealing with psychic abilities. Ahriman's "control" as opposed to Wyrdmake's "funneling". they both tapped the same source of power for their abilities, but did so in (IMO) radically different ways. this is an important distinction to me, as looking at it you can also get a view of the two Legions as a whole.

Yeh i can see your a biased old dog, but thats part of the charm. :)

 

I have seen the stuff in collected visions about the Emperor teaching Magnus of the dangers, Magnus even talks of it in A Thousand Sons although its not hugely detailed.

 

As a neutral, seeing both sides of the story i really don't beleive Magnus was corrupted by other "influences". I do think he was probably approached (being the most powerful primarch by a mile, and when that failed their attentions turned to Horus and his ambition) and Magnus probably listened to what they had to say, but i ultimately he was trying to do the right thing, albeit probably in the wrong way - to be fair though what choice did he have? Send a message quickly warning the Emperor of everything, or the slow progress through the warp only to arrive when everything had kicked off. I would probably do the same as Magnus.

 

I can see why people would fear the Thousand Sons if one of their number attacked another and then fled - but still if i were the Emperor i would need much much MUCH more evidence to damn one of my own sons, even if he were unaware of how much power he had and the danger he faced. If the Emperor had been fully truthful to Magnus about everything the Emperor had discovered and seen on his warp travels it would have prepared Magnus fully for the threats.

 

I also found the interaction between Ahirman and Wrydmake interesting - the two approaches were very different one modern (for the time) and one very outdated/backward. I say backward without any intent, i just mearly think the less you actively seek knowledge from the warp the less influence it has, whereas the deeper you dive, dark and hidden things reveal themselves. The control of the warp used by the Thousand Sons was much more potent than the powers used by the Space Wolves, but the Space Wolves clearly are not corrupted by it (or weren't then). Then again that could be down to their mentality of pure consentration and dedication to the task, not allowing their minds to wander.

 

I cannot stand how the Emperor is depicted in the books. I understand that he will not be described in detail as that would take away the mystery of the man, but still, being so aloof and out of the range of even his sons is wrong, and he ultimately is the downfall of mankind. I also really dislike Malcador in A Thousand Sons - the way he thinks he is above the primarchs and the way he "speaks" for the Emperor even going so far as to rebuke a primarch for him speaking out of turn. I am sure that wouldn't actually happen or would a primarch allow himself to be spoken down to by a frail (although clearly pretty powerful) old man. I certainly wouldn't and would probably lash out, lol.

 

Saying that though i have my own idea that Malcador is "controlled" by the Emperor as Magnus controls Kallimakus in A Thousand Sons. Malcador reminds me very much of the mouth of Sauron in the Lord of the Rings books, being an "extension" of the man.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

interesting idea on malcador. i do think he is his own being, just doggedly loyal to the emperor for reasons unrevealed.

 

I also hate how the emperor is shown...or maybe more accurately, not shown at the moment. he is depicted as aloof and uncaring, dedicated to the end goal with no regard of how it is accomplished. and while that works well with chess pieces, not with anything alive...you think with 30,000 plus years of experience he would have learned that. so i am looking forward to some kind of reveal from him, maybe a short story or something that shows how he views things. (which might be seen as impossible, and i agree it would be hard, but the Last Church seemed to try it...)

 

the problem with the Emperor's verdict on Nikea for me is that when i first heard of it, it was against sorcery, not psychic powers. but i dont think the Emperor does things (even if wrong) without alot of evidence one way or the other, but without seeing something from his point of view, we are kinda stuck in the dark. i think it would be interesting if it was a test of magnus, to see just how far he had fallen, and the answer shocked him, provoking his overkill response.

 

our differing opinion comes from a single point methinks: if magnus was corrupted from contact with warp entities prior to his meeting/warnings with the emperor.

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

Prospero Burns has done more than enough to correct the travesty of the Codex Space Wolves fluff.

 

 

The Space Wolves are dead. Long live the Vlka Fenryka.

[Pulse]

The Space Wolves are dead. Long live the Vlka Fenryka.

Oh dear, those words are boardering on Russian the way they are pronounced and spelt. These Space Wolves get around don't they? Swinging wildly from Scandanavian influences and now seem to be heading into Russian.

 

--

 

Saying that though i just read Vash113's review on Prosporo Burns, here, and it has kinda made me think twice. He isn't the only one i have heard say bad things about it.

 

I will still get the book though, even though i will probably regret it. At least in that link A D-B gives us some clues as to how much better the wolves could be on the road to Terra.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The Space Wolves are dead. Long live the Vlka Fenryka.

Oh dear, those words are boardering on Russian the way they are pronounced and spelt. These Space Wolves get around don't they? Swinging wildly from Scandanavian influences and now seem to be heading into Russian.

 

--

 

Saying that though i just read Vash113's review on Prosporo Burns, here, and it has kinda made me think twice. He isn't the only one i have heard say bad things about it.

 

I will still get the book though, even though i will probably regret it. At least in that link A D-B gives us some clues as to how much better the wolves could be on the road to Terra.

 

Other way around mate, considering that the Russians of today are partly descended from Viking ancestors. Hell most of Northern Europe is of Nordic descent. Those guys where prolific explorers and settlers.

[Pulse]

Other way around mate, considering that the Russians of today are partly descended from Viking ancestors. Hell most of Northern Europe is of Nordic descent. Those guys where prolific explorers and settlers.

You'd be suprised how little northern europe is of Nordic decent - there are population centres in each country generally but they are not as wide spread as you think. Saying that though is it very hard to tell as Saxons, Gauls, and Nords share almost all the same genes and those three were the largest "peoples" of europe.

 

Your right though the had influence over large areas of Russia, probably as far over as Perm and yeh the "Vikings" travelled nearly everywhere at the time, north america, europe and the middle east and futher.

[Gv0zD]

Other way around mate, considering that the Russians of today are partly descended from Viking ancestors. Hell most of Northern Europe is of Nordic descent. Those guys where prolific explorers and settlers.

You'd be suprised how little northern europe is of Nordic decent - there are population centres in each country generally but they are not as wide spread as you think. Saying that though is it very hard to tell as Saxons, Gauls, and Nords share almost all the same genes and those three were the largest "peoples" of europe.

 

Your right though the had influence over large areas of Russia, probably as far over as Perm and yeh the "Vikings" travelled nearly everywhere at the time, north america, europe and the middle east and futher.

Well, it's no secret that the vikings took part in establishing the Russia of middle ages, and yes, the first Russian ruling dynasty descended from the vikings. However those vikings were more 'invited rulers' than conquerors, so they didn't influence the local culture so much (in comparison to Normans and their conquering of England). The point is that there is too little viking influence in Russian culture than in other European countries, especially the North ones. It's possible to say that the vikings were digested in the Slavic culture, leaving mostly the name for their heirs.

 

Sorry for offtop ;)

[Pulse]

Well, it's no secret that the vikings took part in establishing the Russia of middle ages, and yes, the first Russian ruling dynasty descended from the vikings. However those vikings were more 'invited rulers' than conquerors, so they didn't influence the local culture so much (in comparison to Normans and their conquering of England). The point is that there is too little viking influence in Russian culture than in other European countries, especially the North ones. It's possible to say that the vikings were digested in the Slavic culture, leaving mostly the name for their heirs.

Thats the one.

 

Also with the Normans they spread their culture all over europe and parts of the middle east. Thats no secret, and it wasn't just England that had culture effected dramatically. :P