Possible new HH novels? Let me hear your ideas...

[brother varen]

I would like to see the following:

 

1) Battle of Calth (that follows Battle for the Abyss and the first heritic - possibly 2 books/ or 2 views)

 

2) Nightlords (from finding the primarch to its coruption - possibly 2 books)

 

3) Iron Warriors ( focusing on the tensions of the legion's garrison duties to its coruption)

 

4) Imperial Fists ( i would like to see 2 books - 1 dealing with the fists during the crusades and the other dealing with them being recalled to fortify the Palace)

 

5) Iron hands ( one that tells their story that leads to the events in the book Fulgrim)

 

6) Raven Guard ( focusing after Istavvan and the weregeald)

 

7) Iron Warriors vs Imperial Fists (The Iron Cage)

 

8) Mechanicus vs Mechanicus ( The Battle for Mars / the use of technologies not seen)

 

9) Titan legion (a book giving their view on the Hersey)

 

10) World Eaters ( from their beginings to their coruption - possibly 2 books to show the legion's inner workings)

[BetweentheLines]

But why would it be better? What we see in the Horus Heresy novels so far is that they generally aren't written from the point of view of the Primarchs or existing special characters (Abbadon, Khârn, Lucius, Typhus, etc). They tend to come from rather younger or a little bit out of place characters (Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Garro, rememberancers). This creates a little bit of distance, but at the same time makes it easier for the reader to get introduced into that faction/story/etc. The reader can sort of identify themselves with the character. If I'm not mistaken they already did a story from the point of view of Khârn in Tales of Heresy right?

 

Wait...maybe it could be an idea, but it would have to be before Khârn becomes this total nut, otherwise the entire book become likes most BL novels: "look, he is a space marine, so awesomeness, hack, slash [insert 20 page battle scene], super duper unique, slash, shoot". In other words...very boring...

 

 

I definitely agree with malika666 on this one. The point of view from an "outsider's" perspective would be much better because we can view the fall of the World Eaters from the point of view of someone who isn't mindlessly throwing in with the Lodges. Perhaps another Terran-born World Eater Captain. He sees Angron turning from one who is bestial but still has a sense of honor to one who fully gives in to his more primal capabilities. He sees Khârn who is fully loyal to the Emperor somehow succumbs to Chaos. Perhaps after a close encounter with death, he is able to see the other side, the Warp and forever turn his back on the Emperor.

 

This Outsider Captain can see those whose loyalties to the Emperor get slowly whittled down, the loss of old Terran World Eater Veterans, the loss of Captain Varren and others on Istvaan V, until only a few remain. Or even perhaps he is sent off to another mission that was supposed to have been doomed but somehow survives to find the Emperium of Man in ruins on his return.

[malika666]

Maybe not a loyalist point of view, since...well it has been done to death sort of. The Luna Wolves' fall (Loken), Death Guard (Garro) and Emperor's Children (Saul Tarvitz). The Word Bearers have Argel Tal but even he isn't too happy about succumbing to Chaos. The Thousand Sons have Ahriman as their "point of view" and even he isn't that much of a traitor, more concerned about the survival of the Legion rather than betraying the Emperor. So for the World Eaters it might be an interesting change to see it taken from the viewpoint of a willing traitor, the only challenge remains on how to make it more interesting than simply "MaRiNe AnGrY! mArIne SmAsH!!!" A World Eater who later on received the psychotic enhancing implants, slowly losing his mind of a sorts, and struggling with it. Khârn as the figure they all seem to look up to, but with the introduction of the implants he becomes the scariest figure of them all.

[BetweentheLines]

It would need to be from the loyalist point of view or at least one of the characters that we follow, especially if it's about the World Eaters. This is because we need a reliable narrator. In many books, the unreliable narrator is hard to accomplish successfully because we will not be able to distinguish what is truth from lie. They are not known for being liars and deceivers but we will still need to be able to follow the story line. We need to see from the eyes of one who can see a difference in how the legion changes and sense that things are wrong.

 

If we look at the story from the perspective of one who turns during the course of the story, we are drawn into the madness and then it WILL turn into choppy story because the only things that will be brought about in the progression of the arc is MAIM BURN KILL...popping the heads of serfs off....MAIM BURN KILL.

 

Now as we saw in Tales of Heresy the World Eaters, even before Angron was found, were a Legion based on honor and brutality. There was a passage about how they would "decimate allies who had disgraced them on the battle field" (pg 380 Farrer). The idea that the Emperor finally banned it or even the fact that the Emperor allowed this to go on for a time brings to mind the idea of a hotblooded but still honor-bound legion. One that recognizes bravery and the role of a soldier and punishes those who flee in the face of duty.

 

It would be even more interesting if the idea of Commissars, as a previous poster wondered, came from the World Eaters.

 

Going back to who we would follow...how about a World Eaters Librarian? The last of the few.

[malika666]

It would need to be from the loyalist point of view or at least one of the characters that we follow, especially if it's about the World Eaters. This is because we need a reliable narrator. In many books, the unreliable narrator is hard to accomplish successfully because we will not be able to distinguish what is truth from lie. They are not known for being liars and deceivers but we will still need to be able to follow the story line. We need to see from the eyes of one who can see a difference in how the legion changes and sense that things are wrong.

But why would the traitor be an unreliable narrator? We could simply have a warrior who is bound by honor to remain loyal to his Primarch. Honor first, Primarch second, Legion third, Emperor probably a fourth place...

 

Going back to who we would follow...how about a World Eaters Librarian? The last of the few.

That might actually be quite a cool idea!

 

It would be even more interesting if the idea of Commissars, as a previous poster wondered, came from the World Eaters.

I always imagined that the Adeptus Astartes Chaplains carried out a function very similar to the Imperial Guard's Commissars. In the very old fluff Commissars and Chaplains seemed to work together very closely. Perhaps the Commissariat as an organisation evolved out of the Chaplaincy?

[Aegnor]

Hope ADB gets to do the World Eaters book. Although if I could, I think we could all guess what an exchange between Sigismund and Khârn would be:

S: Khârn? What the hell happened to you?

K: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! KILL, MAIM, BURN!!!

fin

[BetweentheLines]

But that's the problem. The traitor that is bound by honor. That in itself doesn't make sense. Sure there are those Space Marines that turn from the Imperium at this time that still hold some semblance of reason but none can really see the full truth of what they are doing.

 

Plus those that give themselves over to Khorne cannot really be a reliable narrator simply because they've become mindless killing machines that lust for blood and skulls. Can you imagine a Berserker that's trying to tell you a story, or keeping a calendar, or planning for the future?

 

Thank you for the compliment about the perspective from a World Eaters Librarian. I think I remember reading somewhere that the World Eaters finally fully turned when the last of their Librarians were killed from within but I can't recall where.

 

I think the concept of the Commissariat coming out of the Chaplaincy would be interesting as well. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the writers have to say about that.

[Yogi]

For me I agree the loyalist view is tired. I wanna see a traitor who can't believe how weak he use to be. Someone who fully enjoys his turn for once. All this angst over turning to chaos is boring. I want to read about someone who really enjoys the turn. Who thinks it is a significant improvement. Maybe I am just a nutter.

 

Outsider view is a crutch. I'm sure these talented writers have a way of narrating from the inside.

 

 

I see what your saying malika.. But if you can use Ahriman, why not Khârn. Just because he is Khârn doesn't mean it has to be a mary sue romp. That again is simply up to the writer.

 

 

Khârn has had one other story about him.. by William King.. I read it some time ago, but I remember enjoying it. I think it was actually called the Wrath of Khârn haha. So you can write from the insider of a nutters head and it can be enjoyable.

 

Edit why Khârn? Because its Khârn.. hes the one I wanna know things about.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

How about a story about a heroic band of World Eaters who are sent on a suicide mission for loyalist tendencies, but accomplish it, and return to the Imperium to fight for the Emperor against their traitor kin.

 

Then kill them. Brutally and totally, with no survivors possible (looking at you, Loken). Take their heads, mount them on a warship, and fire their ashes into a star. Then we'll have precedence to show what the Imperium would do to such splinters.

 

It would be even more interesting if the idea of Commissars, as a previous poster wondered, came from the World Eaters.

 

Going back to who we would follow...how about a World Eaters Librarian? The last of the few.

 

Both of these get a thumbs up from me.

 

Better if the World Eaters Librarian is killed on-screen with his fellows. It would be good to see a Librarian who focuses his powers on bettering his abilities in combat rather than just shooting magic missiles and reading tea leaves.

[malika666]

But that's the problem. The traitor that is bound by honor. That in itself doesn't make sense. Sure there are those Space Marines that turn from the Imperium at this time that still hold some semblance of reason but none can really see the full truth of what they are doing.

Where do you get that idea from? Why doesn't it make sense for a traitor to be bound by honor? What truth?

 

Plus those that give themselves over to Khorne cannot really be a reliable narrator simply because they've become mindless killing machines that lust for blood and skulls. Can you imagine a Berserker that's trying to tell you a story, or keeping a calendar, or planning for the future?

The books tend to be written from the third person view rather than the first person view, so that in itself isn't so much a problem.

 

For me I agree the loyalist view is tired. I wanna see a traitor who can't believe how weak he use to be. Someone who fully enjoys his turn for once. All this angst over turning to chaos is boring. I want to read about someone who really enjoys the turn. Who thinks it is a significant improvement. Maybe I am just a nutter.

That's the feel I'm going for as well!

 

Khârn has had one other story about him.. by William King.. I read it some time ago, but I remember enjoying it. I think it was actually called the Wrath of Khârn haha. So you can write from the insider of a nutters head and it can be enjoyable.

 

Edit why Khârn? Because its Khârn.. hes the one I wanna know things about.

But then it would be more of a Khârn novel than a World Eaters novel. I think it might be more fun to have him viewed through the eyes of another protagonist, it creates a bit more distance and turns Khârn into a more legendary and infamous fellow.

[Brother Decimus]

Oh man...

 

How awesome this can of worms is turning out to be! Loving it Brothers!

 

Epic duels, stories from a bystanders point of view, stories of traitors who ~want~ to turn and the stories that show their renewed vigour... I only hope the writers are reading this, if so I'd laugh if we did all the thinking for them!

 

I especially love the idea of an epic duel between Sigismund and Khârn at the eternity gate. That's not what stories are made of, that's what "sagas" are filled with! Getting a chill all over just imagening it lol

 

An yes I agree with whoever it was that mention the appearance of the Eldar doing their usual thing of swaying events of the great heresy... Worth a go.

[Gv0zD]

8) Mechanicus vs Mechanicus ( The Battle for Mars / the use of technologies not seen)

 

9) Titan legion (a book giving their view on the Hersey)

 

Aren't those events described in 'Mechanicum' by Graham Mcneill?  :D

edit: excluding the Battle for Mars :D

[BetweentheLines]

Where do you get that idea from? Why doesn't it make sense for a traitor to be bound by honor? What truth?

 

In the time of the Horus Heresy or right before the Heresy, the Space Marines and most of the Primarchs seem to be bound by honor. The definition of a traitor is, "a person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust" (www.dictionary.com). If you betray another of your brothers (loose definition) you have no honor. Now in terms of "the truth" used in my context, it means turning their back on the Human race. Some have a skewed sense of reality that they are turning away from an Emperor that would make himself a God or that the Emperor is unworthy to stay in such a role because he has quit the field to return to Terra. The Sons of Horus feel especially slighted because The Emperor did not tell even his favorite son, Horus, the reason for his departure other than it was something important. The only conclusion that they can draw is that since there is nothing more important than the conquest of the Galaxy, the Emperor is lazy. Even if this is their point of view, they lose their trust in the Emperor for Darker Powers and begin to either corrupt or destroy all the planets of the Imperium on their way back to Terra. They ruin the empire that they helped to build and bled for because the Dark Gods whisper for them to do so. How can you say a Traitor has Honor when all their actions speak otherwise?

 

The books tend to be written from the third person view rather than the first person view, so that in itself isn't so much a problem.

This is true but even from a 3rd person's perspective you still have characters that you follow. Peoples lives that you partake in to have the story progress.

 

But then it would be more of a Khârn novel than a World Eaters novel. I think it might be more fun to have him viewed through the eyes of another protagonist, it creates a bit more distance and turns Khârn into a more legendary and infamous fellow.

I definitely agree on this one.

[Midgard]

I had an idea for World Eaters Heresy novel that could be quite interesting. Imagine the Legion taking in aspirants from the most warlike cultures it encounters, the toughest, the most determined fighters, the people with an idealized view of war - it is the only way to prove one's manliness, so to say, and to fail is more or less unthinkable.

 

When a new aspirant is taken by the World Eaters, he is one of the toughest, most brutal would-be killers from his barbaric homeworld, a teenage prodigy in the art of murder, and a perfect candidate for induction into the Legion. Perfect... except for one thing.

 

He is incompatible with the Legion's gene-seed, and is therefore forever doomed to remain a Legion serf, while the other candidates, whom he surpassed in trials, became Astartes.

 

The character is given a "consolation prize" of being assigned to Khârn (or another major World Eater character) as a personal serf, which allows him to have a unique relationship with the World Eater. As the time passes, Khârn relies more and more on our character as a "sounding board" for his thoughts, doubts, and ideas. Simultaneously, the main character is extremely bitter and disillusioned at not being able to become Astartes and satisfy his own expectations of being a warrior.

 

At a crucial point, it is our serf that will tip the balance over for Khârn (or other major World Eater) - because he thinks that with the power from the Warp, he may yet satisfy his ambition of becoming a true Astartes (or at least this is what the Warp promises him, since science alone cannot make up for gene-seed incompatibility). Therefore, as Khârn struggles with aggression implants (which on several occasions interfere with his sense of martial honor as he performs "honorless" slaughter - perhaps giving World Eaters warrior ethos an aspect of bushido in how they understand honor), the advice that will push him over to embrace Khorne comes from his trusted servant, a failed Astartes that by now fully embraces Khorne.

 

I know I'd love to write that, but, ah well... not much of a chance there (i.e. even if I were to get published with Black Library with one of the non-Heresy stories that I will submit this year, they seem to expect an author to build up a resume before giving him a Heresy novel). So something like this, done by Abnett or Dembski-Bowden, would probably be very good.

[BetweentheLines]

I had an idea for World Eaters Heresy novel that could be quite interesting. Imagine the Legion taking in aspirants from the most warlike cultures it encounters, the toughest, the most determined fighters, the people with an idealized view of war - it is the only way to prove one's manliness, so to say, and to fail is more or less unthinkable.

 

When a new aspirant is taken by the World Eaters, he is one of the toughest, most brutal would-be killers from his barbaric homeworld, a teenage prodigy in the art of murder, and a perfect candidate for induction into the Legion. Perfect... except for one thing.

 

He is incompatible with the Legion's gene-seed, and is therefore forever doomed to remain a Legion serf, while the other candidates, whom he surpassed in trials, became Astartes.

 

The character is given a "consolation prize" of being assigned to Khârn (or another major World Eater character) as a personal serf, which allows him to have a unique relationship with the World Eater. As the time passes, Khârn relies more and more on our character as a "sounding board" for his thoughts, doubts, and ideas. Simultaneously, the main character is extremely bitter and disillusioned at not being able to become Astartes and satisfy his own expectations of being a warrior.

 

At a crucial point, it is our serf that will tip the balance over for Khârn (or other major World Eater) - because he thinks that with the power from the Warp, he may yet satisfy his ambition of becoming a true Astartes (or at least this is what the Warp promises him, since science alone cannot make up for gene-seed incompatibility). Therefore, as Khârn struggles with aggression implants (which on several occasions interfere with his sense of martial honor as he performs "honorless" slaughter - perhaps giving World Eaters warrior ethos an aspect of bushido in how they understand honor), the advice that will push him over to embrace Khorne comes from his trusted servant, a failed Astartes that by now fully embraces Khorne.

 

I know I'd love to write that, but, ah well... not much of a chance there (i.e. even if I were to get published with Black Library with one of the non-Heresy stories that I will submit this year, they seem to expect an author to build up a resume before giving him a Heresy novel). So something like this, done by Abnett or Dembski-Bowden, would probably be very good.

 

Now THAT is something that I would take an interest in. Great idea, Midgard! If we add in some other World Eater perspectives, such as that of the World Eaters Librarian we can start to blend together the view of the Legion changing from the "outcasts" that service the Legion. Maybe toss in a World Eaters Apothecary, one that doesn't feel comfortable with the implants or even a Veteran that chooses to fight without the implants?

[malika666]

The definition of a traitor is, "a person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust" (www.dictionary.com). If you betray another of your brothers (loose definition) you have no honor.

But it is all about perception. There are no absolutes. The Imperium calls Horus and his followers Traitors whilst Horus might call the Emperor a traitor. So who lost his honor? It's all about context.

 

Now in terms of "the truth" used in my context, it means turning their back on the Human race. Some have a skewed sense of reality that they are turning away from an Emperor that would make himself a God or that the Emperor is unworthy to stay in such a role because he has quit the field to return to Terra.

And after the Heresy the Emperor is turned into a God, the Primarchs nothing more than forgotten myths of a sorts...

 

The Sons of Horus feel especially slighted because The Emperor did not tell even his favorite son, Horus, the reason for his departure other than it was something important. The only conclusion that they can draw is that since there is nothing more important than the conquest of the Galaxy, the Emperor is lazy. Even if this is their point of view, they lose their trust in the Emperor for Darker Powers and begin to either corrupt or destroy all the planets of the Imperium on their way back to Terra. They ruin the empire that they helped to build and bled for because the Dark Gods whisper for them to do so. How can you say a Traitor has Honor when all their actions speak otherwise?

They seek to take over the Empire, they do this by war and destroying those who oppose them. Not so much different from how the Emperor created his empire...

[BetweentheLines]

But it is all about perception. There are no absolutes. The Imperium calls Horus and his followers Traitors whilst Horus might call the Emperor a traitor. So who lost his honor? It's all about context.

Yet the Emperor is enacting designs that he had created for thousands of years while Horus is corrupted by Chaos and his clarity is twisted by their influence. He does not trust in his father. He betrays his father therefor he is the traitor. Some can argue that his father had betrayed him by not detailing out why he was leaving the crusade front but was he not granted the title of Warmaster and to act in his stead? Why can Horus not take up his role as the united leader of the battle front especially when he carries such a role of responsibility? He feels sadness because he feels abandoned and dwells on his feelings instead of doing his job. This sadness is where Chaos seeps in and finds a way into his heart. He is then corrupted.

 

And after the Heresy the Emperor is turned into a God, the Primarchs nothing more than forgotten myths of a sorts...

It's strange, isn't it, that for all their reasons for turning from the Imperium and the Emperor, they turned the Emperor into that which he did not want the most. A God.

 

They seek to take over the Empire, they do this by war and destroying those who oppose them. Not so much different from how the Emperor created his empire...

Conquest and honor are two different things.

[malika666]

Yet the Emperor is enacting designs that he had created for thousands of years while Horus is corrupted by Chaos and his clarity is twisted by their influence. He does not trust in his father. He betrays his father therefor he is the traitor. Some can argue that his father had betrayed him by not detailing out why he was leaving the crusade front but was he not granted the title of Warmaster and to act in his stead? Why can Horus not take up his role as the united leader of the battle front especially when he carries such a role of responsibility? He feels sadness because he feels abandoned and dwells on his feelings instead of doing his job. This sadness is where Chaos seeps in and finds a way into his heart. He is then corrupted.

It's all about perspective. Didn't the Emperor betray them by ditching his Legions to go to Terra? Didn't the Emperor betray his sons by letting some bureaucrats decide how to run the Imperium that Horus was eventually conquering for them? Horus' only purpose becomes to fight and then shut up. This being the Emperor's brightest son, his successor, reduced to a politician's pawn.

 

Conquest and honor are two different things.

I never said they were the same...

[Pulse]

It's all about perspective. Didn't the Emperor betray them by ditching his Legions to go to Terra? Didn't the Emperor betray his sons by letting some bureaucrats decide how to run the Imperium that Horus was eventually conquering for them? Horus' only purpose becomes to fight and then shut up. This being the Emperor's brightest son, his successor, reduced to a politician's pawn.

That is pretty much it.

 

To cut all the nonsense out - the Emperor failed miserably with his plans. Not sure how a being that was supposedly so mighty managed to screw up so badly but there we go.

[The emperors chosen]

I want to see some stuff from before Horus turned. There is a huge amount of time where the GC is going on,and very few novels cover this for a long length of time(The DA novels come to mind).

[Aegnor]

The past few posts have touched upon somethig I'd really like to see in future stories. The cumulative effect of several stories focusing on the traitors perceptions of the wrongs done to them - in combination with initially pretty brief fluff those stories are based upon - have had the effect of portraying the Emperor as an absolute incompetent when dealing with his sons, especially Angron, Lorgar and Magnus. Now, I've no problem with the Emperor making significant errors, but when they are just seemingly repeated stupid ones it hurts the feeling of credibility of the whole fluff universe. Would love a future story, not from the Emperor's PoV, but someone in his company, to give the other side of the story as to why the Emperor erred so badly - with some thought given to what could have been a near omnicogniscent being's reasons for acting that way. Maybe a Guilliman PoV on the lead up to the censuring of the Word Bearers. It has never been revealed to my knowledge whether anyone was with the Emperor besides his Custodes when he retrieved Angron, but someone like a still loyal Horus or Dorn could be there.

[malika666]

The Emperor's failing on the Word Bearers has always been from their point of view. It would indeed by interesting to see how the Emperor himself thought about it (more than just "boohoo I'm not a God!"), or how did the Ultramarines and others view it all...

[Sons of Horus]

Konrad Curze and his Legion. We need more Night Lords awesomeness B)

[Brother Decimus]

Okay, not exactly a book in its own right but a couple of things I think need better coverage in HH novels:

 

1: The opinions and objections of the Primarchs when they learn that they will not be on the rulling council even though they've spent all this time on the War council. Who thinks its a bad idea? Who feels dumped on? and who believes its the way forward?

 

 

2: The rivalries between other legions other than SW and DA... And the contempt for the behavior of such legions. ie. the butchery of the WorldEaters, the barbarism of the Space Wolves, the secrecy of the Alpha Legion or the Night Lords terror tactics.

 

 

These insights would add a bit more details into the primarch's own views of their brothers

[lords2001]

By the way, Khârn is 99% from Terra - he was the captain of the 8th at the time Angron was found, and fought with the Emperor well before Angron was found.

 

I would find something interesting in the battles in the Sol system before Terra - I mean, there must have been some kick ass battles at Saturn, Jupiter, etc before they reached earth, if nothing else to make sure they couldn't be flanked?

 

I would also like to see something about the Salamanders. And Raven Guard. Even Iron Hands, the step child of the legions.