Wolf Lord Mjolnir Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Spoilers will be openly discussed from here on in, you have been warned... There will be no Spoiler Tags!!!!!!!! If you can add page numbers then please do. Right what do we know: From 'A Thousand Sons' Ahriman is shocked by a realisation/recognition when attacked by a 'Fenrisian Wolf' Magnus tell us that the original colonists had their DNA altered to help settle Fenris From Prospero Burns A large wolf comes out of nowhere to save the Kasper Hawser - where is 'Bear' while this is happening? We are also told that 'Bear' has saved Kasper Hawser on a number of occassions Russ takes Kasper Hawser to join the wolves out in the woods, who he joins freely - pg 444 What do I think? I honestly think the Vlka Fenrynka are effectively werewolves and Wulfen are made when the Vlka Fenrynka lose the ability to control it! There you go. discuss - for and against... (am I going to regret this?!?!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 It's not Bear but Brom. Brom and Fith were the Ascomonni who helped Kasper. This means Brom survived the encounter with the Balt, went through SW trials, but failed and became a Wolf. ----------- My questions with respect to the no wolves on fenris... 1. So was Magnus miss informed or lying? PB suggests that the SW's are the sole reason there are wolves on Fenris. So from small to large, something happens in the process when the Canis Helix is introduced and a potential wolf fails. If yes, this means the native Fenrisians are not the source of wolves as Magnus suggests. I prefer the PB version as the TS version does not jibe with how SWs are created on Fenris and Terra. 2. What really happened to Kasper, did he join them, or did they eat him up!? He was supposed to go into stasis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Yup it was Brom, even the Rune Priest says so. Something in the lines of "he saved you twice already" one being in the beginning of the book, and the other in his other form. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Wulfen are made when the Vlka Fenrynka lose the ability to control it! My take is that ALL Wolf versions stem from a loss of control. From Wulfen, to Thunders, to normal sized wolf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Mjolnir Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 My bad. Thanks guys. So maybe not werewolves but the wolves on Fenris are actually failed aspirants? I think Russ was letting Kasper in on the secret as he was a skjald and so Russ could not prevent him from going where he wished. I don't think Russ would have let him die after saying he wanted Kasper to tell his sagas to the legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 True, so that leaves me with he joined them as he no longer had fear of wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 SPOILER ALERT!!! well, my take on the whole "there are no wolves on Fenris" is that.... outsiders look at the Vlka Fenryka as barbaric and uncivilized. Calling, and giving us the name Space Wolves, although we prefer being called the Rout, and formally the Vlka Fenryka. It's a funny parallel, because I think the whole comment is a cleaver way of showing, that people view us from their perception, and what outsiders think of us, isn't always true. Kinda like, don't judge a book by it's cover! the wolves of Fenris have done a great job playing the part in front of everyone. Not only to cover up our deep secrets, as in the form of early settlers with gene splicing and the secret with our canis helix+wulfen curse. I think it is more of a mind game, and false importation to our benefit, and our advantage against our foes. The idea of, Astartes vs. Astartes was so unthinkable, and almost unimaginable. Even the thought of an executioner legion is a scary thought for most outsiders. And I think we wolves play on that! a perfect example of this, are the comments made towards Russ during that secret meeting. There are no wolves on Fenris.... only Wolves of Fenris! Well that's my take on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Whilst listening to the audio version, I think I'm agreeing with you on the pt of a metaphor Maverick. Especially during the Quietude campagin where they say the Imperials do not want to be close to the SW's due to their perceived barbarity and savagery...Kasper then says "if they only knew there are no wolves on Fenris". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 My main question is this How could Russ be raised by wolves if all the Wolves are in fact Wulfen type creatures? Long Fang is an example of a Space Wolf not from Fenris so I believe that removes the 'they are evolved humans' scenario. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkseer Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 This is what I gathered from reading A Thousand Sons. Still waiting on my copy of Prospero Burns. Probably won't get it in the post til after Christmas now. It also makes me wonder about "Canis Wolfborn" Was he born to wolves? Considering the probability and gene splicing, it's a possibility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I just think the thought of Canis WOlfborn is an incredibly poor piece of fluff, if memory serves he beats a fully trained astartes and drags him back to the fang when he is just a human? It was an intiate not a fully trained astartes but it still seems far fetched. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 My thoughts on the matter of there are no wolves on fenris as still the same. The so called wolves of fenris are in fact Xenos creatures. When the original settlers made there way to the home world of the wolves of Russ they discovered species that looked familiar and they called them what they thought they were never considering that there genetics were probably very different. If you made your way to another planet and saw something that hoped around, had long ears and liked carrots would you just call it a Rabbit or would you look at its Genotype before classifying it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkseer Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I just think the thought of Canis WOlfborn is an incredibly poor piece of fluff, if memory serves he beats a fully trained astartes and drags him back to the fang when he is just a human? It was an intiate not a fully trained astartes but it still seems far fetched. I think it's an overlooked piece of fluff. Not necessarily poor. All the Fenris legends are a bit far fetched :wink: Also, he can't have been a mere human if: 1) he was Born of fenrisian wolves (which have astartes geneseed mixed in their genetics from failed aspirants) 2) he beat up a wolf lord Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Does it say he was born to them because if it does it sets a new level of thought there. As for him beating up a Wolf Lord like I said, I just think its a poor piece of fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I've always believed the Emperor planned the scattering of the pods. And just used chaos as an excuse. I mean with all the coincidences and all... anyway back to your question. One could be asked about the other legion Primarch's in their respected planets; which a few were also death worlds. Leman has the canis helix, I would imagine that those animals could sense the affinity both shared. Kinda like a gut instinct or intuition. Not to mention Primarch's are considered demi-gods so maybe a "devine aura" in a form of a psychic ward, that protected the kid in the wild. That or his diaper was dirty and the wolves didn't want to mess with that ;p wasn't Bulveye also like Longfang? I remember him saying something from "wolf at the door" about being one of the few who survived the gene seed. I'll have to look it up, it's been awhile since I read it. I agree with Canis, his fluff was done poorly... almost lazy. It takes away from Leman Russ upbringing and brings it almost to a regular, mainstream status. When Russ growing up with wolves was suppose to be like "wow" okay cool. Then you get Canis, oh... you two? how original. Been there done that. And why does he ride with wolf claws? how do you ride a thunderwolf without poking him? LOL And actually, you dont really see scientist today name two different birds an eagle. Or you don't call a lion a tiger just because their similar in nature. One is alien with stripes, yes but it's not a lion, nor do we call it a lion. Scientist classify it, and categorize it. So if early settlers seem something similar to a wolf, I'm sure they wouldn't call it wolf. They'd be like OMG RUN!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Abnett and McNeil seem to be suggesting that aspiriants further regress to an even more bestial state then wulfen, becoming the fenrisian wolves that populate Fenris. tbh, I liked Thousand Sons and Prospero Burn, but this is the biggest thing I hate that Abnett and Mcneil have done, and I'm doing my best to ignore. Codex fluff suggests fenrisian wolves breed on their own. If they were mutated aspirants, then how do the damn things breed, seeing as their would be absolutely female aspirants. bah. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 My main question is this How could Russ be raised by wolves if all the Wolves are in fact Wulfen type creatures? Long Fang is an example of a Space Wolf not from Fenris so I believe that removes the 'they are evolved humans' scenario. Good point about the wolves and Russ. Does not jibe with PB. Wispy, I agree with your comments totally. I could accept the notion of native wolves or dogs brought by the original settlers who go back to wolfish ways. Those wolves could interbreed with some of the failed aspirants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkhan Fellblade Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 I've always believed the Emperor planned the scattering of the pods. And just used chaos as an excuse. I mean with all the coincidences and all... anyway back to your question. One could be asked about the other legion Primarch's in their respected planets; which a few were also death worlds. Leman has the canis helix, I would imagine that those animals could sense the affinity both shared. Kinda like a gut instinct or intuition. Not to mention Primarch's are considered demi-gods so maybe a "devine aura" in a form of a psychic ward, that protected the kid in the wild. That or his diaper was dirty and the wolves didn't want to mess with that ;p wasn't Bulveye also like Longfang? I remember him saying something from "wolf at the door" about being one of the few who survived the gene seed. I'll have to look it up, it's been awhile since I read it. I agree with Canis, his fluff was done poorly... almost lazy. It takes away from Leman Russ upbringing and brings it almost to a regular, mainstream status. When Russ growing up with wolves was suppose to be like "wow" okay cool. Then you get Canis, oh... you two? how original. Been there done that. And why does he ride with wolf claws? how do you ride a thunderwolf without poking him? LOL And actually, you dont really see scientist today name two different birds an eagle. Or you don't call a lion a tiger just because their similar in nature. One is alien with stripes, yes but it's not a lion, nor do we call it a lion. Scientist classify it, and categorize it. So if early settlers seem something similar to a wolf, I'm sure they wouldn't call it wolf. They'd be like OMG RUN!!! Your right about Bulveye he was a friend of Russ before the emperor came and was one of the few who actually survived the transformation to become a space wolf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2595944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkseer Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 The few of Russ's warriors (not teenagers) who underwent the gene seed transformation and survived were known as The Grey Beards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2596087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 There is still no clear indication from what I have seen fluff wise of what the canis helix is and how it differs from your normal gene seed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2596089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 Well, from the reading of new codex, it seems like the the thunders and fenrisian wolves are two different species. So the first could be a failed aspirant and the second an animal. But yeah, the Canis Wolfborn and thunderwolf cavalry is really poor and ridiculous design. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2596124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 See and reading the new codex I got the impression that the Fenrisian wolves were broken down into sub-species, much like modern day wolves in north america. Thunderwolves were just one such gene-pool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2596126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 I still stand by the premise that Fenrisian wolves were Terran wolves brought with the original settlers. The original settlers brought with them fauna that was probably genetically engineered to be more adaptive. We have proof of other Terran named animals on Fenris such as the elk and mammoth that have indeed adapted to the environment. In the case of the Terran wolves, they proved to be even more adaptive and rose to be one of the apex predators on the planet. Seriously, when the hoops you have to jump through to get to the point of "there are no wolves on Fenris" reaches above and beyond, just look at what is most simple. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2596136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkseer Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 There is still no clear indication from what I have seen fluff wise of what the canis helix is and how it differs from your normal gene seed. It's an addition to the regular gene seed. The canis helix is required for an aspirant's body to be able to accept Leman Russ's gene seed. Without it the aspirant dies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2596138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 There is still no clear indication from what I have seen fluff wise of what the canis helix is and how it differs from your normal gene seed. It's an addition to the regular gene seed. The canis helix is required for an aspirant's body to be able to accept Leman Russ's gene seed. Without it the aspirant dies. This. Check the codex. Explains it pretty well in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/217621-no-wolves-on-fenris/#findComment-2596148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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