Space Wolves: How many are there?

[Legatus]

Salamanders- Also only had 7 Companies...

That fluff was from "back then" when Legions were about 10,000 strong on average. With the retconed sizes, naturally that now means the Salamanders companies were 10,000 strong each. No wonder they were known to be more cumbersome...

[Grey Mage]

Because the main goal of the Second Founding was that no single Marine Commander should have significantly more than 1,000 warriors under his command, and not merely to use a few Marines from each Legion to create additional formations. Also, while several Legions had their own formations and units, at the time of the Second Founding it was defined that a "Chapter" was to be a standardised formation of 1000 warriors as it had been used by the Ultramarines and a few other Legions, and that is usually the definition given in the Codex Space Wolves when it discusses those events as well.

 

Yet we know that this is not the case from other sources, including C:SWs- there are more SWs than 1k. Heck, there are more ultramarines than that. Why should we then assume that this part of the generic space marine history is directly applied to the space wolves as a concrete number instead of a general intent?

 

After all we shouldnt forget that the space marine legions also ran with consistant titan support, huge swathes of imperial gaurd, and large fleets of support ships that made them front line naval formations aswell.

 

But mostly its the context- the very next paragraph seems to say that the SWs were an exception to this rule:

 

The new Chapters became known as the Second Founding . These Second Founding all claim a genetic brotherhood with the original Space Marines and the Primarchs. The Spce Wolves were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen. Perhaps Leman Russ had no intention of breaking apart his mighty Legion so that they could be divided and conquered if necessary. What is known, however, is that the Space Wolves had and still have little regard for the dictates and military tradition of the Codex Astartes, instead holding sacred the teachings of Russ that are handed down from Wolf Priest to Blood Claw whelp even to this day.

 

Note- the high lords werent that crazy about splitting the Space Wolves up. Leman Russ may have very well resisted it. And even at the time of the second founding- when this quote is refering to- the space wolves didnt care two pence about the 'dictates' of the codex astartes wich would include the size limitations.

 

No, rather I would put forth that the primary reason for the space wolves current size are three fold: Native Population, Politics, and Infrastructure.

 

Native Population: Fenris might be a huge death world with a far larger pool of recruits than most worlds, but its not an easily renewed resource. If you pull out to many marines *say take 100,00 initiates in one year* your depleting the genes that you find most favorable. Oh and theres the part where most space wolf recruits are pulled from the dead and dying on the battlefields, wich has its own inherent limitations.

 

Politics: The Space Wolves arent stupid. They know it causes political tension when they walk into a room on some worlds, let alone when 20,000 of them walk onto a battlefield howling. Successive Great Wolves may not have wanted to take large numbers of recruits to keep a balance between what they can do and what they will do. Does this mean theyre oath-bound to do so and we couldnt see another 10,000 bloodclaws over the course of seven years? No... but it means the situations in wich that would happen are severely limited and unlikely to have happened.

 

Infrastructure: The days of the legions are gone. The Space Wolves maintain a sizeable fleet, noted as having hundreds of rapid strike vessels and a goodly number of larger craft- and that they mainly use the personal craft of each Wolf Lord. Why? Because maintenance of a large fleet takes alot of workers. Munitions, armor, weapons, food- all of these have to come from somewhere and Fenris itself can only produce so much. What good is 10,000 bloodclaws without armor or bolt pistols who are starving when they arrive? In order to maintain a large fighting force of wolves would require the help of other nearby worlds to keep them supplied- and draw further attention to them. Triple the normal amount of food a chapter needs? Well they do live on a frozen deathworld.... Ask for a sudden increase in that supply, quadrupling the order in the course of a year, and people are going to want to know why.

 

Wich takes us back to basic politics- why does the current great wolf feel the need for such a large number of recruits, and how many inquisitors is he going to need to convince of this before it becomes a viable solution?

 

I put forth that these three reasons, not a non-existant oath to the dictates of the codex astartes, are the primary reason for the current Space Wolf chapters size.

[Legatus]

Yet we know that this is not the case from other sources, including C:SWs- there are more SWs than 1k. Heck, there are more ultramarines than that. Why should we then assume that this part of the generic space marine history is directly applied to the space wolves as a concrete number instead of a general intent?

Because the text in the Codex Space Wolves about the Second Founding does not explain that there are exceptions, or that there were exceptions. It generally states that the formerly ten thousand Strong Legions were divided into new formations now limited to roughly 1,000 warriors. It then explains that the Space Wolves were divided only once. It does not state that the Space Wolves were an exception to the Second Founding procedures.

 

What happened in the following 10,000 years or how closely the Chapters chose to adhere to those new formations is not discussed in that passage.

 

 

But mostly its the context- the very next paragraph seems to say that the SWs were an exception to this rule:

The reason why it does not seem that way to me is because I still have the 2nd and 3rd Edition sources. The 2nd Edition description was almost identical, also mentioning the reluctance of the High Lords to spread the Space Wolve gene seed any further, but in addition it was prefaced with this: "The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once"

That Codex had flat out given the reason for why the Space Wolves had only been divided once. And the 5th Edition Codex, by omitting that line, to me is not strong enough to count as a retcon. It is merely being more ambiguous about the reasons, but the earlier sources had given the reason quite explicitely. I still consider that to be factual, just as I consider the fluff about the Lion lying hidden within the Rock as being the Dark Angels' big secret that is now only mentioned but not explained in the current Codex Dark Angels. By omitting the explicit explanation that had been given in the 2nd Edition Codex Dark Angels, the current Codex is merely attempting to be more mysterious and ambiguous. that does not mean that the previous explanation is retconned.

 

I had taken the "the High Lords decided to not spread their gene seed any further" as explaining why the Space Wolves never had any further successors in later foundings.

 

The 3rd Edition Index Astartes about the Codex Astartes had also explicitely mentioned the Space Wolves and explained that they had been divided into two Chapters (which of course had been described as being a roghly 1,000 warrior strong formation a few paragraphs earlier). It did not explain that the Legion had been divided once, or that one Chapter had been splitt off of the Legion, but specifically that they had been divided into two Chapters.

 

No, I do not feel that the 5th Editition Codex Space Wolves is actually describing how the Space Wolves were an exception to the Second Founding.

 

 

It does not matter whether the Space Wolves keep their numbers low because they have regard for the dictates of the Codex Astartes. I imagine Russ had to agree to reform his Legion into Chapters, and that alone means the Space Wolves are bound by his word. At least I hope they honour the word of their Primarch more than the Black Templars honour the word of theirs. B)

[Grey Mage]

The fact that it is written in a general sense should be a warning that it is not going to be correct in all cases- thats a basic fact of history.

 

As for the idea of the large or small affecting it- its easier to swallow ~13,000 warriors becoming ~11,000 and 1500 respectively than say ~250,000 warriors becoming 100k, 100k, and 50k. The passage also implies they may have noted a difficulty in the SWs recruiting new aspirants, wich would be a limiting factor in their later size- so why push the primarch?

 

Chapter however is just the common name for a group of astartes under a single name now. Whatever chapter may have meant to some legions before the codex astartes its meaning has been changed since, and likely during, the creation of the second founding. Chapters previously did not have their own home worlds for instance, and its already been noted that even a codex-adherent chapter is well above and beyond 1,000 astartes.

 

As for your last comment:

It does not matter whether the Space Wolves keep their numbers low because they have regard for the dictates of the Codex Astartes. I imagine Russ had to agree to reform his Legion into Chapters, and that alone means the Space Wolves are bound by his word. At least I hope they honour the word of their Primarch more than the Black Templars honour the word of theirs.

 

What you 'imagine' the primarchs did has not one bit of bearing on what we know did happen. Indeed, rather than saying they are oath breakers it would be more in line with their character to say they never made the oath to begin with. Where that not the case I would be playing with devastators instead of long fangs- because such are the dictates of the codex astartes.

 

Indeed, if we must go with the imaginings to fill in the gaps here I say we should take the ones that are in line with the fluff on this giants-among-men, and that they and their successors kept the oaths they gave- and in turn that they must not have vowed to adhere to the codex. That they agreed to disolve their legions- including the navy, army, and huge recruitment rates- does not mean they swore to shatter their legions further than was needed for the comfort of the imperial citizenry.

[Legatus]

Chapter however is just the common name for a group of astartes under a single name now. Whatever chapter may have meant to some legions before the codex astartes its meaning has been changed since, and likely during, the creation of the second founding.

However, if a text passage explains the Second Founding and describes how the previously larger Legions were divided into smaller Chapters of roughly a thousand Warriors, then assuming that that's not what is meant when the same passage explains that the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters is not very reasonable. Yes, we have Chaoters today that exceed that number quite a bit, such as the present day Space Wolves. But that was not what that passage about their Second Founding described.

 

 

Chapters previously did not have their own home worlds for instance, and its already been noted that even a codex-adherent chapter is well above and beyond 1,000 astartes.

Yes, in times of prolonged war Chapters are actually permitted to boost their recruitment and exceed 1,000 fighting warriors. Most of teh time a Codex Chaoter will not go above their ten standard sized Companies, though.

 

 

What you 'imagine' the primarchs did has not one bit of bearing on what we know did happen.

I know that Leman Russ was initially not happy with the breaking up of the Legions, even though that is only really definitively mentioned in the Index Astartes of the Black Templars, and not even really in the older Space Wolves sources themselves. And I know that the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters. From initial reluctance and subsequent compliance it is reasonable to assume that he had to agree to it.

 

 

Indeed, rather than saying they are oath breakers it would be more in line with their character to say they never made the oath to begin with. Where that not the case I would be playing with devastators instead of long fangs- because such are the dictates of the codex astartes.

The Codex Astartes includes many topics, some of them are decrees, some of them are guides. The articles on tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings are described as "guidelines" in the Codex Space Marines (p. 9), while the splitting up of the Legions and the controlled growing of gene-seed and training of recruits are described as "decrees" (p. 7 and 8). And honestly, the notion that the High Lords would order a Chapter how to organise their units and what manouvers to apply in battle is ridiculous.

 

 

Indeed, if we must go with the imaginings to fill in the gaps here I say we should take the ones that are in line with the fluff on this giants-among-men, and that they and their successors kept the oaths they gave- and in turn that they must not have vowed to adhere to the codex. That they agreed to disolve their legions- including the navy, army, and huge recruitment rates- does not mean they swore to shatter their legions further than was needed for the comfort of the imperial citizenry.

I agree. I do think that the Space Wolves are intentionally adhering to the size limitation, but that they are now at about ~1,800ish warriors, which is probably juuust about how much the High Lords tolerate (if it was more than 2,000, then why are they not split into two separate Chapters?). As I said Chapters are allowed to exceed the 1,000 warriors in times of prolonged war (and that number refers to fighting squads, not to headquarters, staff and specialists), and the Space Wolves as one of the most active and aggressive Chapters could probably constantly be seen as being at war. Plus they are one of the nine First Founding Chapters, and those probably get slightly more leeway than other Chapetrs might.

 

I could even see the Legion being at ~2,500 warriors during the Second Founding and being divided into the ~1,500 strong Space Wolves Chapter and the 1,000 strong Wolf Brothers Chapter, but if the Legion would have had 3,000 warriors then I think they would probably have split into three Chapters. With 500 left, you could perhaps argue that instead of making three understrength Chapters they instead could make one over strength Chapter. But with 3,000 or more they owuld have had enough for three full sized Chapters, and such a request would have been harder to get granted.

[Grey Mage]

Except the math doesnt add up. We know that Ragnar has ~200 warriors *lets assume for a moment this does include bloodclaws, though thats up for debate*

 

We know that Logain has more, and thats its reliably higher than ragnars- say 230. And conservative estimates place the number of wolf, rune, and iron priests at around a total of 50 for the entire chapter. Thats enough for each great company to have 1, and 14 spares, total, for all the priesthoods.

 

Noting that the Wolf Scouts are not part of particular companies, like the priests, and lets say that each company can call upon atleast 10 of these warriors- some might have smaller packs, some larger, but as a working average that gives us 120 wolf scouts.

 

That gives us 600 warriors. Wich means the total Wolf Gaurd, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs and Bloodclaws for each other company is 119+ Wolf Lord. This is not significantly different than a codex chapter- 100 marines, 1 tech marine+assistant, command squad, captain, armory drivers, thunderhawk pilots, is easily 120 warriors- and note that all of those positions come from the great company itself, leaving us with even fewer grey hunters on the field. Depending on the exact vehicle compliment were looking at as few as thirty grey hunters in organized packs.

 

The Space Wolves wouldnt be known for being a large chapter if this was the case, theyd be noted for being small in number by modern standards. If we remove bloodclaws from the equation the numbers become more favorable.... but it adds on another 500 warriors to the chapter and likely increases the number of iron priests *if not others* that are needed to keep the chapter running- pushing us into the 2400 area.

 

As you noted, 2400 warriors is alot. If Leman Russ had declared that they would be a standard chapter in size this would never fly. Thus I can only assume that he made no such oath. What happened in place of that is open to speculation, but I would hazard to say that its more likely he simply agreed not to keep to legion strength.

 

As for your notes on a time of war and its affects on chapter strength- outside of those few chapters rebuilding like the Crimson Fists I doubt that any chapter is out of the 'time of war' for more than a month at a time, if that. Theyre skills are so desperately needed, and the galaxy is aflame with war- a chapter as a whole would likely never be at rest.

[Marshal Rohr]

You realize even if every of the 12 great companies has 200 warriors then the total still comes to 2400? Thats still not that many. If you really want to sound cool if each GC has 300 total then at most you end up with 3000. Congratulations...

 

Hell, 6000 isnt that many.

 

No chapter today is close to Legion size.

[Valerian]

Space Wolves- 13 Companies can only have so many warriors before the span of control becomes too erratic and discipline/communication/combat effectiveness breaks down. If each of the 13 companies had 1,000 (which there is no way one Jarl could control) that would still put them at 13,000.

 

Chapter Masters command roughly 1,000 Marines, so why can't a Wolf Lord? That's what subordinate commanders are for. In the 13th Company Index Astartes (White Dwarf 283), an inquisitor estimates that the 13th Company numbered about 1,000 men when they were lost to the Space Wolves. From the Saga of Jorin Bloodfang we know that the 13th Company Wolf Lord had 5 subordinate Lords (Grail, Orkbane, Sigurd, Thorbrand, and Grafield).

 

We also know that the Legion numbered 10,000 men during the Great Crusade (Lone Wolves article, White Dwarf 244).

 

So for the Legion we know its original pre-Heresy size and the approximate size of one Great Company. It stands to reason (an assumption), that not all Great Compnies in the Legion were the same size, as they continue to vary in the current era.

 

Another fact that we know is the size of one of the M41 Great Companies, with Ragnar's being the second largest at about 200 men. So we can guesstimate an approximate current Chapter strength of 1,750-2,000.

 

Of course these numbers (except the last, which is an estimate) are all based on numbers that the GW have provided us. Now, of course, the Black Library folks could completely retcon this and make significant changes to the size fluff, but as far as I can tell from this thread, they have not done so yet. At least not explicitly, with new specific numbers.

 

V

[Marshal Rohr]

Space Wolves- 13 Companies can only have so many warriors before the span of control becomes too erratic and discipline/communication/combat effectiveness breaks down. If each of the 13 companies had 1,000 (which there is no way one Jarl could control) that would still put them at 13,000.

 

Chapter Masters command roughly 1,000 Marines, so why can't a Wolf Lord? That's what subordinate commanders are for. In the 13th Company Index Astartes (White Dwarf 283), an inquisitor estimates that the 13th Company numbered about 1,000 men when they were lost to the Space Wolves. From the Saga of Jorin Bloodfang we know that the 13th Company Wolf Lord had 5 subordinate Lords (Grail, Orkbane, Sigurd, Thorbrand, and Grafield).

 

We also know that the Legion numbered 10,000 men during the Great Crusade (Lone Wolves article, White Dwarf 244).

 

So for the Legion we know its original pre-Heresy size and the approximate size of one Great Company. It stands to reason (an assumption), that not all Great Compnies in the Legion were the same size, as they continue to vary in the current era.

 

Another fact that we know is the size of one of the M41 Great Companies, with Ragnar's being the second largest at about 200 men. So we can guesstimate an approximate current Chapter strength of 1,750-2,000.

 

Of course these numbers (except the last, which is an estimate) are all based on numbers that the GW have provided us. Now, of course, the Black Library folks could completely retcon this and make significant changes to the size fluff, but as far as I can tell from this thread, they have not done so yet. At least not explicitly, with new specific numbers.

 

V

 

The most effective span of control is 3. A commander looking for optimum efficiency should have no more than 3 people working for him at any given time. And so on down the line. Given the space wolves operate under the alpha-male mentality, there can only ever be ONE leader, regardless of how many sub-commanders he has.

 

A Chapter Master only commands ten sub-commanders, who in turn only have ten sub-commanders, and those have only one assistant to help them in battle. The Space Wolves dont have that. A chain of command isnt present other than the Wolf Lord is the biggest badass in the crew.

[Grey Mage]

The most effective span of control is 3. A commander looking for optimum efficiency should have no more than 3 people working for him at any given time. And so on down the line. Given the space wolves operate under the alpha-male mentality, there can only ever be ONE leader, regardless of how many sub-commanders he has.

 

A Chapter Master only commands ten sub-commanders, who in turn only have ten sub-commanders, and those have only one assistant to help them in battle. The Space Wolves dont have that. A chain of command isnt present other than the Wolf Lord is the biggest badass in the crew.

.... for a human. Whos to say what the most efficient number for an astartes is?

 

Not to mention its not the problem you seem to imply. The SWs have ONE leader, the Great Wolf. All others look to him and so on and so forth. The Great Wolf has 11 subordinates, who in turn delegate command to priests and battle-leaders, who in turn delegate it to pack leaders *wether wolf guard or inherent leaders*....

 

The chain of command is alive and well in the SWs, its just far more fluid that in some organizations. One day a particular wolf gaurd is in charge of 40 men, including other wolf gaurd perhaps, and other days hes in charge of a single squad taking orders from one he previously governed. Most likely this fluidity doesnt even come up on a regular basis- certain wolf gaurd being known as better leaders than others, with a few having the specialized abilities required for a particular mission.

[Legatus]

Except the math doesnt add up. We know that Ragnar has ~200 warriors *lets assume for a moment this does include bloodclaws, though thats up for debate*

 

We know that Logain has more, and thats its reliably higher than ragnars- say 230. And conservative estimates place the number of wolf, rune, and iron priests at around a total of 50 for the entire chapter. Thats enough for each great company to have 1, and 14 spares, total, for all the priesthoods.

 

Noting that the Wolf Scouts are not part of particular companies, like the priests, and lets say that each company can call upon atleast 10 of these warriors- some might have smaller packs, some larger, but as a working average that gives us 120 wolf scouts.

 

That gives us 600 warriors. Wich means the total Wolf Gaurd, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs and Bloodclaws for each other company is 119+ Wolf Lord. This is not significantly different than a codex chapter- 100 marines, 1 tech marine+assistant, command squad, captain, armory drivers, thunderhawk pilots, is easily 120 warriors- and note that all of those positions come from the great company itself, leaving us with even fewer grey hunters on the field. Depending on the exact vehicle compliment were looking at as few as thirty grey hunters in organized packs.

The official fighting strength of a Chapter is measured in the number of line troopers, i.e. all the regular squads added together.

 

See for example the description of a Chapter's organisation in the current Codex Space Marines on page 16:

 

"The official fighting strength of each company is made up of ten squads of ten Marines led by a Sergeant."

 

I think I remember either the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines or the 3rd Edition Index Astartes article abut the Codex Astartes even mentioning 1,000 Marines, organised into ten companies, each consisting of ten squads of ten men, but where I am right now I only have limited sources with me, and those two are not among them.

 

It might seem odd in the greater scheme of things to use that figure for a Chapter's fighting strength, seeing how vital the arsenal and the fleet are, but I guess in a squad level skirmish game it is understandable why GW usually focuses on the foot soldiers.

 

Anyways, the figure for a Chapter's fighting strentgth (it's "fighting warriors") does not include officiers, specialists, drivers/pilots/crew, priests, etc. It specifically only counts the members of the regular company squads. So when I say that a regular Chapter has a strength of 1,000 warriors and the Space Wolves have a strength of 1,800 warriors, then they really probably have somthing along the lines of 1,400 and 2,500 genetically enhances personell respectively.

 

I.e.:

 

Codex Chapter

Offiial Strength: 1,000 warriors

"Marine" members: ~1,400 personell

Company Strength: 100

Company total personell: ~120

 

Space Wolves Chapter

Official Strengt: 1,800 warriors

"Marine" members: ~2,500 personell

Great Company Strength: ca. 150 (average)

Great Company total Personell: ~190

 

Something like that.

 

 

About Space Wolf Scouts: IIRC in the 2nd Edition Codex they were said to all belong to the Company of the Great Wolf, but since the 3rd Edition Codex Space Wolves they had been described as part of the individual Great Companies, and IIRC that was how tehy were described earlier in "Space Marines" as well. The current Codex mentions how Erik Morkai's Great Company has a great number of Scouts.

[Marshal Rohr]

The most effective span of control is 3. A commander looking for optimum efficiency should have no more than 3 people working for him at any given time. And so on down the line. Given the space wolves operate under the alpha-male mentality, there can only ever be ONE leader, regardless of how many sub-commanders he has.

 

A Chapter Master only commands ten sub-commanders, who in turn only have ten sub-commanders, and those have only one assistant to help them in battle. The Space Wolves dont have that. A chain of command isnt present other than the Wolf Lord is the biggest badass in the crew.

.... for a human. Whos to say what the most efficient number for an astartes is?

 

There is a formula.

 

Not to mention its not the problem you seem to imply. The SWs have ONE leader, the Great Wolf. All others look to him and so on and so forth. The Great Wolf has 11 subordinates, who in turn delegate command to priests and battle-leaders, who in turn delegate it to pack leaders *wether wolf guard or inherent leaders*....

 

The chain of command is alive and well in the SWs, its just far more fluid that in some organizations. One day a particular wolf gaurd is in charge of 40 men, including other wolf gaurd perhaps, and other days hes in charge of a single squad taking orders from one he previously governed. Most likely this fluidity doesnt even come up on a regular basis- certain wolf gaurd being known as better leaders than others, with a few having the specialized abilities required for a particular mission.

 

 

That isn't how 'packs' work.

[Valerian]

The most effective span of control is 3. A commander looking for optimum efficiency should have no more than 3 people working for him at any given time. And so on down the line. Given the space wolves operate under the alpha-male mentality, there can only ever be ONE leader, regardless of how many sub-commanders he has.

 

A Chapter Master only commands ten sub-commanders, who in turn only have ten sub-commanders, and those have only one assistant to help them in battle. The Space Wolves dont have that. A chain of command isnt present other than the Wolf Lord is the biggest badass in the crew.

 

Ooh, goodie, now we have entered a subfloor that I have some expertise in. Optimal spam of control for military organizations, based on US Army doctrine is between 3-5 subordinate elements. That's why most platoons have 3 or 4 squads, companies have 3 or 4 platoons, battalions have 4 or 5 companies, brigades have 4 or 5 battalions, etc., etc. Frankly trying to manage more moving pieces at the same time becomes very difficult to command and control. I agree completely that trying to control too many elements at the same time is exceptionally difficult. That is exactly why Bloodfang designated 5 subordinate Lords, giving them retinues of their own. Leman Russ was the Alpha Wolf of the Legion, he had 13 subordinate elements organized into Great Companies, each led by a Wolf Lord. 13 is a lot of elements to control at once, but he was a Primarch, and known to be a legendary commander in an era of superior military leaders. One of his Great Companies, the 13th, taking the totem of the Wulfen, was led by Jorin Bloodfang, Alpha of his Great Company, who commanded 5 subordinate warbands. In turn, those men, like Hirkon Grail, would have appointed some Battle Leaders to help him manage.

 

The point is, the Space Wolves do use a chain of command, albeit one that is exceptionally fluid and flexible, and dominated by the innate leadership of the Wolves themselves. They operate as packs at the most fundamental level, then bands of packs, and so on.

 

Regardless, this slightly off-topic discussion doesn't change the fact that we know exactly the size of the old Legion, and know the approximate size of the current Chapter.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Ooh, goodie, now we have entered a subfloor that I have some expertise in. Optimal spam of control for military organizations, based on US Army doctrine is between 3-5 subordinate elements. That's why most platoons have 3 or 4 squads, companies have 3 or 4 platoons, battalions have 4 or 5 companies, brigades have 4 or 5 battalions, etc., etc. Frankly trying to manage more moving pieces at the same time becomes very difficult to command and control. I agree completely that trying to control too many elements at the same time is exceptionally difficult. That is exactly why Bloodfang designated 5 subordinate Lords, giving them retinues of their own. Leman Russ was the Alpha Wolf of the Legion, he had 13 subordinate elements organized into Great Companies, each led by a Wolf Lord. 13 is a lot of elements to control at once, but he was a Primarch, and known to be a legendary commander in an era of superior military leaders. One of his Great Companies, the 13th, taking the totem of the Wulfen, was led by Jorin Bloodfang, Alpha of his Great Company, who commanded 5 subordinate warbands. In turn, those men, like Hirkon Grail, would have appointed some Battle Leaders to help him manage.

 

I had the same stuff spouted at me at Spanish Command and Staff College as a foreign student, fresh from happily running six muliples, upwards of two mobiles and aviation support.

 

It's doctrinal rubbish drawn from the sub-tactical level that recent operational experience has hopefully put to bed. Indeed my immediate posting from Staff College was to command six subunits plus command and support elements - this was not abnormal or even particularly difficult.

 

Any competent and experienced commander who puts their trust in competent and experienced subordinates can coordinate more moving parts than three to five.

 

Anyway - back to toys and thanks to GM for covering the points that came from my post. It does seem that there is a degree of conflation between deduction and assumption.

 

We do not 'know' the size of anything. The fluff regarding this made-up world is confusing and contradictory. The best we can do until new and clear material is published is make our best guess and accept that people may guess differently.

 

Regards,

[Valerian]

I had the same stuff spouted at me at Spanish Command and Staff College as a foreign student, fresh from happily running six muliples, upwards of two mobiles and aviation support.

 

It's doctrinal rubbish drawn from the sub-tactical level that recent operational experience has hopefully put to bed. Indeed my immediate posting from Staff College was to command six subunits plus command and support elements - this was not abnormal or even particularly difficult.

 

Hmmm. Well, we will have to agree to disagree, then Brother Durfast. My experience differs, I suppose. I commanded a US Army Heavy Cavalry Troop in 2002 and 2003. We've since gone through a major transformation of our forces, so they only exist now in the 3rd ACR, but at the time they were known to be one of the most difficult company-level commands, because they have so many discrete moving parts (e.g. maneuver elements). I had to control 2 tank platoons, 2 scout platoons (which often operated in three sections, rather than together as a platoon), a mortar platoon, a headquarters element (my tank and my XO's command post vehicle), and the troop trains (first sergeant's vehicle, medic vehicle, maintenance vehicles, and a few trucks). In addition, I usually had overhead support from a section of Kiowa helicopters from one of the three aviation troops in our squadron, which I also had to control. When you fresh, controlling and keeping track of all of these parts is difficult, especially when you still have to command your own combat vehicle. When you are exhausted, it is much more challenging than you make it out to be. When we were settled into our forward operating bases, conducting patrols, peacekeeping, counter-insurgency, etc., it was much less demanding, but the conventional part of a battle of maneuver is not easy. I often envied my fellow Armor Captains at the time that only had to worry about 4 tank platoons, the HQ section, and their company trains. Managing that would have indeed been much easier in comparison.

 

 

We do not 'know' the size of anything. The fluff regarding this made-up world is confusing and contradictory. The best we can do until new and clear material is published is make our best guess and accept that people may guess differently.

 

Perhaps, 'know' is too strong of a word then? I don't really think so, but I'm willing to concede. GW absolutely likes to keep things mysterious, and that is a good thing. It wouldn't be much fun at all if everything were black and white. Often, they will provide several options, as to what the truth is/might be, and leave it to us to try to determine which of those, if any, are it. There are intentional unknowns in the universe background, and the truth becomes much more murky when exploring the distant past of the Heresy era. However, that being said, in many cases the writers strongly suggest certain points, and repeat those hints throughout the years in multiple publications. Additionally, every now and then, they actually state something that simply is.

 

Some fluff evolves over time, and there are adjustments, and sometimes outright changes or brand new additions (Thunderwolf Cavalry, for example), but I have actually found that the fluff regarding the Space Wolves has been actually rather consistent since the "new version" came out back in '92. This is, of course, discounting the Black Library publications. If you included those, then yes, there are many, many, conflicts in the fluff - which causes severe challenges to anyone trying to keep it all straight. However, if you discount the novels, there are far fewer problems. If you read every codex and every White Dwarf article that have ever been written on the Wolves since late Rogue Trader, you will find that it is all actually very consistent, with many answers to your questions revealed.

 

You are of course correct that we often have to deduce and make assumptions to come up with reasonable answers. I think that we have done that when we come up with the 1,750-2,000 range for current numbers within the Chapter. We've no reason to go any less, and there isn't much evidence to support going much higher. Others may guess otherwise, and that is fine, but it seems that this range is largely accepted by those who appear to really follow the background material that is available. We have to go through this process, because GW hasn't given us the specific numbers for the Chapter size, yet people want to know. I say that we 'know' certain things, because GW sometimes does state a few facts quite explicitly.

 

Well, that's enough for now.

 

Best Regards,

 

Valerian

[Marshal Rohr]

I recognize my failing and will be sure to correct it.

 

 

Now back to reread my books on organizational doctrine....

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Hmmm. Well, we will have to agree to disagree, then Brother Durfast. My experience differs, I suppose. ...

 

Well, that's enough for now.

 

Best Regards,

 

Valerian

 

Brother, I think that we are on the same page and may even have the same key setting :teehee:

 

Happy New Year

[MaleOpener]

According to this site Space Wolves ~ Lexicanum , the current total of the chapter is 1440.

 

This number includes all 12 Great Companies. ( 150 ~ 1000 per a company )

 

 

As for the Black Templars, they have 5000 ~ 6000 spread through several crusades.

 

Black Templars ~ Lexicanum

[Gree]

Lexicanum is not a reliable source. I've seen fan-stuff on there before.

[wolfpack]

I say we just agree to disagree on size...build our respective great companies as we see fit (as any true Wolf Lord would) and leave the speculation and assumation to the beauracrats...after all isn't that what's it's all about in the first place?

[Decoy]

That, and threadomancy, it seems.

[wolfpack]

LOL...I just saw that...see what happens when I don't check things everyday...

[bjornsval]

The fact that GW is retconning the fluff shows some real thought to actual militaries. !0,000 marines no matter how strong would need almost constant replacements from losses. This over time is going to dilute the combat experience of the legion. Also with 10k in the field you are going to need almost 5 times that many in the replacement pipeline. With it taking 2+ years to make a marine. If the legion gets involved in a hard battle in a system you could see it becoming combat ineffective very fast with only 10k marines. The retcon to 100k marines makes more sense when you think of losses and replacement

[Link2edition]

I have a friend who plays space puppies, and he loves their fluff. but he once told me there are 194,000 wolves in the fluff which I have a hard time believing.

 

Can someone who knows SW fluff clear this up for me? and maybe explain how he could have come up with such a huge number?

 

Thanks guys,

Signed: not the inqusition

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Check the sticky at the top of the Space Wolves forum.