Space Wolves: How many are there?

[SeanyPrawny]

I imagine looking at the fluff that he probably figured with deaths at prospero and losing the 13th company it put us from a legion of 200,000 to 195,000 then with the second founding and us only splitting once we go to 194,000.... this isn't correct at all though. Would be amazing though. Would probably make us like half the marines out there haha

 

Nah I imagine we are more than likly 1,500-2000 though nobody knows for sure and everything is speculation.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i dont believe we were, even at legion size, breaking 100k.

 

our current chapter size is debated, but most consensus puts us at around 1400-1700.

 

WLK

[bjornsval]

Also dont forget the great hunts. since the companies that go on one are stricken from roster and a new company is created. You could think of it as a way to fool the =][= on the total number of wolves in the imperium. Kinda of like how the black templars are soo not codex =D

[Link2edition]

thanks for the quick replies

 

And sorry about posting a new topic, I was about to leave for class and was trying to get the question out quick, I did not notice the sticky.

 

2k I would believe. I am a Templar player so hearing someone had a bigger chapter than mine conflicted with my own fluff, causing confusion all around.

 

So how did the chapter go from 200k to 2k then?

[SeanyPrawny]

So how did the chapter go from 200k to 2k then?

 

10,000 years of war most likly (though I doubt we were ever 200k)

[Valerian]

Also dont forget the great hunts. since the companies that go on one are stricken from roster and a new company is created. You could think of it as a way to fool the =][= on the total number of wolves in the imperium. Kinda of like how the black templars are soo not codex =D

 

That's not how the Great Hunts work. Lost Companies are not typically associated with Great Hunts.

 

V

[hendrik]

while reading a thousand sons it suddently hit me! in a thousand sons at a certain moment it was mentioned russ was advancing with his 6000 space wolves! now let the debate begin wether this was the full legion after casualties, or not even the full legion at all!

[Legatus]

I have recently stumbled accross a new source. Well, an old source. Very old. It is from the Space Marine Epic supplement "Armies of the Imperium", and can of course no longer be trusted as credible background, since so much has been changed in 2nd Edition of 40K. But it might be an indicator from where the 2nd Edition Space Wolves background was developed from.

 

"Like the other Chapters the Space Wolves were reorganised after the Horus Heresy according to the Codex Astartes. However, their Primarch, the famous Leman Russ, was never conventional and the Chapter soon adapted to suit its leader's fierce warrior mentality."

Epic, Armies of the Imperium, p. 11

 

So, at least back in 1st Edition, the Space Wolves were considered to be Codex conform at the time of the Second Founding, but then developed back to their own organisation. So they were probably also at about 1,000 strength at the time of the Second Founding, but then possibly gained more warriors in the following centuries.

 

I would not give much on 1st Edition fluff, sonce so much has been drastically rewritten since then. But the 2nd Edition Space Wolves background does not really dispute that account. It merely does not commend on such details of the Second Founding.

 

 

Also, it is interresting to see somewhat of a consensus for approximately 150 warriors per Great Company and approximately 1800 warriors for the Chapter, considering the flak I got for suggesting such numbers a while ago. :lol: (Well, I think my initial suggestion for a Great Company average was around 125...) But that was so long ago, the main dispute might have been about the question whether the Space Wolves were reformed into a Chapter during the Second Founding or not.

[Grimtooth]

New source puts it over 2k during the Battle of the Fang.

[frostclaw222]

Given that the Battle of the Fang went down sometime between M32-M34 (if memory serves), that number's not altogether helpful in terms of determining modern day numbers. But, given the other initiatives suggested in the novel (withholding spoilers here), it really makes me wonder how things could have happened if Magnus hadn't been successful in tempting most of the Rout away from the Aett....

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Given that the Battle of the Fang went down sometime between M32-M34 (if memory serves), that number's not altogether helpful in terms of determining modern day numbers. But, given the other initiatives suggested in the novel (withholding spoilers here), it really makes me wonder how things could have happened if Magnus hadn't been successful in tempting most of the Rout away from the Aett....

 

Why would the Chapter be smaller or larger now than in the Battle of the Fang as I'm not aware of any organisational changes post that battle?

[Grimtooth]

Given that the Battle of the Fang went down sometime between M32-M34 (if memory serves), that number's not altogether helpful in terms of determining modern day numbers. But, given the other initiatives suggested in the novel (withholding spoilers here), it really makes me wonder how things could have happened if Magnus hadn't been successful in tempting most of the Rout away from the Aett....

 

It is as close as you are going to get to modern day numbers then any other source. The number is post-heresy, post-Russ, post-Wolf Brothers. Even the decimated company is planned to be rebuilt. Nothing since the Battle of the Fang in any of the fluff signifies another culling of large numbers of the Space Wolves.

[Blacksad]

unless you count the games I've played against eldar and daemons. those guys always seem to butcher me :( ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i try and tackle this on post 8 and 14 in this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...232695&st=0

 

for those that dont want to read my reasoning there, i put the Wolves at around 2,400 strong.

 

WLK

[SCHIZM]

So I chose not to read through every response... I tried, but you know how long these things get - anyways - apologies if I seem to be copying anyone's previously stated positions.

 

No offense to everyone - but I really hate trying to count the number of marines in a chapter - it's a stupid, boring, and uncreative aspect of the 40k 'verse. And given the constant flux / expanse of the Imperium, no any one fact can ever really be true - personally i think this is a policy GW should adopt (if they haven't unofficially) - the galaxy is more than large enough that anytime a book or story or whatever contradicts something previous - no need to redact it, simply accept it as another historian's account based on spotty evidence. I think it makes it more fun if what is believed in certain parts of the Imperium is the complete opposite of what's believed in other parts.

 

But here's my take

 

The Space Wolves were one of the smaller legions, as is stated, in fact I would suspect them to be among the very smallest - now, how big a legion was? Who can say - between 10s to perhaps a couple 100k, like I said above, I prefer such details to be spotty, makes it more fun, supposedly we're in the 41st millenium right? A 10k years old history? We can barely agree today what happened hundreds of years ago - 10,000 years is a lot of time to keep track of - either way - it's noted in Prospero Burns that the battle between the Wolves and the 1000 Sons was meant to basically cripple both legions anyways, and it most certainly did, the Wolves would not have committed to such an engagement had they known they would require their numbers in the coming war, they most likely believed the large sacrifice was necessary to stop the greatest threat to the Imperium at the time. No matter who they were, 2 Astartes legions clashing is a Pyrric victory for whoever comes out on top.

 

Following this battle, then came the Heresy - however many years of war until Horus' death, and then however many more years of war following to mop up. Regardless of whether or not the legions were split into chapters immediately following the siege of terra - or not until after the heresy was "officially" over - all the legions took a beating.

 

The first and only successor chapter was said to be fully half the remaining legion, and took half the legion's fleet and supplies etc, with them when they left.

 

I would suspect that the Wolves lost at least half their number at Prospero, and another half during the heresy - and it's probably a safe bet that very few legions broke down into 1000 strong chapters all at once - both the Space Wolves and the Wolf Brothers were probably more than 1000 strong when they departed one another. That's being conservative, it coulda been more in every degree stated above and simply over the years as the Imperium has become less powerful and unified that the supplies and resources and technologies to recruit, create and maintain space marines has dwindled down enough to bring the Space Wolves into the 1500 range, give or take 500? That's my input - but like I said, counting is boring, it's more fun for me to simply think of things as intentionally inaccurate... and it's way more fun to think that enemies of the Imperium believe there are too few space wolves left in the galaxy to ever be a threat, until they descend in force on their asses.

[TnzeenchTheChangerOfWays]

Yeah but think, a single fernisian space wolf can take on several men so 1000 space wolves can take on

around 3000 enemies, and underneath there fortress monastry the fang they have about 2000 dreadnoughts

which can take on about ten enemies each you do the math, basically space wolves own :)

[MonSTeR]

A lot of this is gauged on the throwaway line in the codex that Ragnar Blackmane's Great Company has approximately 200 battle hardened warriors andthen opinions diverge from there. I sometimes like to think that whilst "battle hardened" could refer to any space marine. But we're Space Wolves; battle hardened takes on a whole new meaning for us...

 

So... with 200 Wolf Guard (That's what I'd call a battle hardened warriior, after all any normal battle's not going to do much for a Space Wolf) in Blackmane's company he probably has what 1000-1200 Grey Hunters, another 500-800 Blood Claws and a similar number of Long Fangs.

 

That makes his company about oooh, 2200 to 3000 fighting men.

 

Of course the other Great Companies are a little smaller, say no more than 2000 Space Wolves each, so that's what just under 25000 or so Space Wolves in the Chapter.

 

No wonder Logan Grimnar doesn't let the Inquisition visit The Fang.

 

In all seriousness I'd always thought of the chapter something like this with a Wolf Lord taking somethign like the roll of a Chapter Master and the Wolf Guard Battle leaders working something like Space Marine Captains each with their own "companies" within the Great Company.

[Grimtooth]

A lot of this is gauged on the throwaway line in the codex that Ragnar Blackmane's Great Company has approximately 200 battle hardened warriors andthen opinions diverge from there. I sometimes like to think that whilst "battle hardened" could refer to any space marine. But we're Space Wolves; battle hardened takes on a whole new meaning for us...

 

So... with 200 Wolf Guard (That's what I'd call a battle hardened warriior, after all any normal battle's not going to do much for a Space Wolf) in Blackmane's company he probably has what 1000-1200 Grey Hunters, another 500-800 Blood Claws and a similar number of Long Fangs.

 

That makes his company about oooh, 2200 to 3000 fighting men.

 

Of course the other Great Companies are a little smaller, say no more than 2000 Space Wolves each, so that's what just under 25000 or so Space Wolves in the Chapter.

 

No wonder Logan Grimnar doesn't let the Inquisition visit The Fang.

 

In all seriousness I'd always thought of the chapter something like this with a Wolf Lord taking somethign like the roll of a Chapter Master and the Wolf Guard Battle leaders working something like Space Marine Captains each with their own "companies" within the Great Company.

 

I have expressed this opinion before and was shouted down by crybaby Codex Astartes blue boyscouts and the like that did not want to accept that Russ never really followed the Codex Astartes and the Wolves forever carried on that same sentiment.

 

I agree, there is nothing battle-hardened about a Bloodclaw, Swiftclaw, or Skyclaws. However that does leave several units that could still be considered battle-hardened which makes your estimate fairly high.

[Quillen]

Battle Hardened would be grey hunters and above. A Blood claw is not battle hardened. Look at our troops. We say battle hardened and we mean everyone not new to the deployement.

 

So if Ragnar's Company is 200 Battle Hardened then they also probly have a couple of packs of blood claws learning in it too. Maybe even 3 or 4. So that would mean 200+ 15 to 60 noobies.

 

And we are not the smallest. We are a smaller Legion. Meaning we were not like Ultra Marines and Dark angels who had huge influxes of battle brothers when the Primarchs were found.

 

In the Sissters of Battle 2nd edition book they have a story of a Fleet of Battle Barges coming to save the Fang. Battle Barges plural. So I place the fleet strength with atleast 2 or 3 Battle Barges. Think how big that is. A Battle Barge can hold 300 Battle brothers. So the Wolf Lord with one of those would have a huge host with him.

 

That is the thing thou. The fluff for 40k has changed so much it's all messed up. All mixed together.

 

So Ragnars is the next biggest with 200+ and Logans is bigger so he is 200++ and it says a Great Company can be below Codex company levels at times. So I see it around 2k Battle Hardened troops. With a couple of hundred Blood Claws at any given time. It's the best we can get from all the fluff mistakes.

 

Which is fine. So 2k Loyal Space Wolves, and then rpobly another 300+ Lost Company guys wondering around. I play a lost company, and so does a ton of other players. Still I can't see that many Lost Companies wondering around and not getting whittled down.

[Gariuys]

What I found interesting in the codex, was a line that read something along the lines of "so why does the emperor allow such a dangerous group to exist, simple, to hunt other space marines"

 

Which does explain why they get away with stomping all over the codex astartes. And it also gives a good reason to assume that the whole chapter is probably atleast twice as big as a normal chapter. So they can muster a whole normal chapter worth of marines to kick some other chapters rear end while still keeping the fang and standard patrols etc at normal operating strength.

[Nova_Dew]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't PB give the size of Tra company as 450 marines?

[eyeslikethunder]

You including the 13th company in your lost companies Quillen. They could a lot more than 300.

[eyeslikethunder]

Extra information on Great company sizes in IA11

 

Bran Redmaw is a wolf lord , the chieftain of a Great company of up to 200 space wolves warriors

 

As close to two hundred Space wolves made planetfall

 

This seems to suggest the number great companies close to two hundred maybe more than we thought. It also suggests that 200 maybe the target number for a great company at full strength just 100 is the codex astartes target number.

 

So while Ragnar's great company maybe the second largest the gap to the next does not seem to be significant.

[Valerian]

Extra information on Great company sizes in IA11

 

Bran Redmaw is a wolf lord , the chieftain of a Great company of up to 200 space wolves warriors

 

As close to two hundred Space wolves made planetfall

 

This seems to suggest the number great companies close to two hundred maybe more than we thought. It also suggests that 200 maybe the target number for a great company at full strength just 100 is the codex astartes target number.

 

So while Ragnar's great company maybe the second largest the gap to the next does not seem to be significant.

 

Or, it might just mean that Bran's Great Company is a close 3rd to Ragnar's 2nd, while the rest lag somewhat behind in success, popularity, and thus also, size.

 

Either way, the information in IA11 is consistent with the order of magnitude that many of us have been supporting all along, with all Great Companies numbering more than 100 Marines, with the largest Great Companies at just over 200.

 

Valerian

[eyeslikethunder]

Or, it might just mean that Bran's Great Company is a close 3rd to Ragnar's 2nd, while the rest lag somewhat behind in success, popularity, and thus also, size.

 

Either way, the information in IA11 is consistent with the order of magnitude that many of us have been supporting all along, with all Great Companies numbering more than 100 Marines, with the largest Great Companies at just over 200.

 

Valerian

 

 

What do think of the "up to 200" wording is it a limit set by the wolves or some other factor such as initiate production rate or just the number he happens to have at the moment?

 

What would you put the average great company at?