Command Squad idea

[Gree]

I've been toying around with a Command Squad to accompany my Captain into close quarters.

 

(And yes I'm aware that the optimal build for Command Squads is loading them up with special weapons and use them as a ranged squad but I'm experimenting with close quarter squads)

 

My first idea is:

 

All with Storm Shields (except for Apothecary)

1 with Power Fist

3 with Lightning Claw

Apothecary

It comes out to around 245 pts. An alternate idea is to drop the Storm Shields and claws for power weapons and bolt pistols.

 

I've also been toying around with a cheaper version of the first, with dropping the lightning claws and have three of the Marines act as Shield bearers and adding a Company Banner.

 

The Captain is your fairly standard Relic blade, storm shield, digital weapons load out.

[spartan249]

May as well just take assault terminators, as you're not adding much survivability with this sort of squad (You're actually losing some power because of the apothecary) and you're paying more for less.

 

But if you really like those models and just want to field them, then by all means go for it. Just saying that Termies will outperform them.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I'd say it sounds pretty solid, if a little pricy, but at 245 points you've got a good CC unit thats going to dish out a lot of hurt and be able to take some punishment nicely too. Its quite costly and perhaps a little over the top in gear, but actually if its something you want to use i can't see it being an underpar unit. My suggestion would be to perhaps shave off some upgrades off at least a single guy to give you a guy to use in case someone has to die and that would drag the cost down to 215 or so, which actually is pretty reasonable I suppose seeing as TH/SS are 200.

[Jackelope King]

Put this squad on bikes and then you have (almost) my Biker Command Squad. Take two and they really are a terror, but only really work in a pure biker army. T4(5) + FNP + 3++ is a fantastically tough unit, and especially when accompanied by a Captain on a Bike with a Relic Blade, is very smashy.

[Gree]

May as well just take assault terminators, as you're not adding much survivability with this sort of squad (You're actually losing some power because of the apothecary) and you're paying more for less.

 

But if you really like those models and just want to field them, then by all means go for it. Just saying that Termies will outperform them.

 

Oh, I know that full well. I'm just experimenting to see if there are any good CC command squad builds. I know full well that TH/SS Termies are better.

 

Put this squad on bikes and then you have (almost) my Biker Command Squad. Take two and they really are a terror, but only really work in a pure biker army. T4(5) + FNP + 3++ is a fantastically tough unit, and especially when accompanied by a Captain on a Bike with a Relic Blade, is very smashy.

 

I know abotu the biker option. But none of the models I currently have are mounted on bikes, nor does Bikes really fit my playing style.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think something else that you need to keep in mind here is that your captain is probably gonna be like 145 points at least and combined with that command squad the total is around the 390 mark with its loadout, which is quite a lump of points. If its sitting in a rhino or a razorback, unless theres other targets to draw the fire, it'll probably spring up as a top priority threat, even more so if its land raider based. This is something i kinda wonder about when it comes to heavy CC units like this, bikes do seem a good option, but im not a fan either, the only other thing is create lots more threats i guess!

[Meatman]

Well, I just got a command squad for Christmas (Love my mum :o ). From what I can gather from the 20 million other command squad threads, you want to do one of 4 things.

 

Keep 'em cheap, a few weapon upgrades thrown around, with a rhino.

Tooled up for ranged combat, typically plasma due to feel no pain, with a claw or fist to give them an edge in combat.

Make them such a great threat that the other player HAS to divert attention to them. Typically lots of fists, claws, shields etc.

Stick them on bikes and any of the three above.

 

 

I'm going for the first option, as I like my "cheap but many" threats style lists.

So I've loaded them up like this:

 

Apothecary

Company champion (WS 5, power weapon, AND a combat shield, for the cost of a power weapon? Yes please)

Veteran with fist and company banner

Storm shield

Vanilla

Rhino

 

Totals at 220 points. Not unreasonable. My captain is normally jump pack equipped (Shrike or the Forgeworld Korvydae), so they are normally rocking with a cheap "command squad" in the form of a 10 man assault squad. Having these guys to back them up appeals to me.

 

At my local club they are more afraid of my assault marines after a series of fairly brutal wins with them when I started. My army is normally so far outside of meta they weren't expecting them. Therefore my "lesser" threat of the command squad will largely go unnoticed (hopefully).

 

I've obviously got to get games in before I decide how successful they can be, and not just judge them on single epic or lucky events. (Thank you Jackelope King for the previous posts on sample size, really is enlightening)

 

Not used to using "uber squads" in rhinos, normally prefer assault marines for they're mobility without needing a transport, but it was a Christmas present I intend to use.

[chaplain belisarius]

my captain gets a relic blade and rides in a laserback with his command squad (ccw, bp, 2 melta guns).

 

nice and cheap and it does ok most of the time (sometimes they even do really well!)

 

but then i mostly play 1k games so cant really splash out on expensive squads...

 

hope this helped! :P

[Frosty the Pyro]

Comand squads shoulds be shooty. You can almost always acheive any close combat goal cheeper and better with another unit, but there is not a lot out there than can pack 4 special weapons as cheaply as a command squad. Pick your target, (elites, vehicles, or hoards) and get 4 of the proper weapon (plasma, melta, or flamers), and then start hunting. Depending on preference throw them in a transport or on bikes, and add just enouph CC to be a deterent (one fist or a LC is enouph, something that is going to chew them in CC will do so regardless). try and keep them cheep.

 

 

Untested. I have been considering a 4 flamer bike comand squad attached to a MoTF or servo harnesed techmarine also on a bike for a 5 flamer unit.

[Arkios]

Ive been tinkering with the idea of running Khan in a stock Razorback with a Command Squad consisting of an Apothecary plus 4x Vets all with Storm Shields, Bolt Pistols, and single Lightning claws.

 

Khan, Command squad and Razorback come out to a total of 435 points.

 

The Command squad has 3+(FnP)/3++, and on the charge have 12x str5 power weapon attacks at I5 with re-rolls to wound, 4x str5 normal attacks at I5... PLUS Khan's 5x str5 power weapon attacks at I6(!) which cause ID on a wound roll of 6.

 

The unit can sweeping advance (since no one is in TDA), and also has the "Hit and Run" USR to ensure a successful disengage at the end of the opponent's turn in case they get tar-pitted or bogged down in a big fight. They can then set up to charge back in to regain +1 I/S from furious charge, or relocate.

 

Any Thoughts?

[Gree]

Comand squads shoulds be shooty. You can almost always acheive any close combat goal cheeper and better with another unit, but there is not a lot out there than can pack 4 special weapons as cheaply as a command squad. Pick your target, (elites, vehicles, or hoards) and get 4 of the proper weapon (plasma, melta, or flamers), and then start hunting. Depending on preference throw them in a transport or on bikes, and add just enouph CC to be a deterent (one fist or a LC is enouph, something that is going to chew them in CC will do so regardless). try and keep them cheep.

 

I am already well aware of that. I am however experimenting to see if there are any decent CC builds I can use.

[spartan249]

Ive been tinkering with the idea of running Khan in a stock Razorback with a Command Squad consisting of an Apothecary plus 4x Vets all with Storm Shields, Bolt Pistols, and single Lightning claws.

 

Khan, Command squad and Razorback come out to a total of 435 points.

 

The Command squad has 3+(FnP)/3++, and on the charge have 12x str5 power weapon attacks at I5 with re-rolls to wound, 4x str5 normal attacks at I5... PLUS Khan's 5x str5 power weapon attacks at I6(!) which cause ID on a wound roll of 6.

 

The unit can sweeping advance (since no one is in TDA), and also has the "Hit and Run" USR to ensure a successful disengage at the end of the opponent's turn in case they get tar-pitted or bogged down in a big fight. They can then set up to charge back in to regain +1 I/S from furious charge, or relocate.

 

Any Thoughts?

 

I'm playing something similar, but with plasma guns instead of lightning claws. It's... very expensive, to say the least, so you have to make sure that they are protected until they start making their points back.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Command Squads AREN'T designated for any roles in particular. They have wargear that lets them turn to almost anything they want, whether it be a special weapons platform or a combat one.

 

Points for them to be given either are similar and they tend to have a very large pool, so the squad becomes what you want it to. They work well as special weapons as, indeed we cannot replicate the numbers they can take of it anywhere else, but that doesn't mean its their only, or even best, use.

 

I think however that often ranged weaponry is cheaper and effective for the squad, combat tends to be expensive and can work well too, it just has competition in the role.

 

The squad can be what you need it to be, balancing it to the appropriate amount is an art though!

[Marshal Serion]

My current Command Squad loadout is this:

 

 

Company Champion (sort of a no-brainer, really)

1x Veteran w/ Power Weapon/Bolt Pistol

1x Veteran w/ Thunder Hammer and Flamer

1x Veteran w/ BP/CCW and Melta Bombs

Apothecary

 

This squad rolls around with my counts-as Cassius and my RB/SS/AA Captain in a LR Reedemer.

 

Perfect counterpoint to my 8 Termies (5TH/3LC) in a LR Crusader.

[gettothegone]

Command Squad / All Bikes

 

Commander (Or Korsarro, lately Korsarro, the I5 charge is incredibly devastating) / Relic Blade

4 Vets / Claws, Shields, Melta Each

Apoth

 

Korsarro's ability to allow the squad to swing first and at S5 with furious charge has been very decisive against other squads. The price tag for this group is incredibly high, but there isn't much that can go toe to toe with it. I usually run this with a Librarian on a bike as well for null zone.

 

This is only when I run a command squad, otherwise, I use a 135 pt biker captain, and no command squad to unlock bikes and that's it. The rest of my army is the best that Salamanders have to offer. Command squads are brutal, that's for sure, but lately people have gotten wise to them and they're building to make sure that deathstar units don't get much say in the way games progress.

 

Personally, command squads on bikes seem to be the best way to go. Otherwise if you're not on a bike, I'd give them a truckload of plasma, put em in a rhino, and go to town.

[Xeonic]

My CC build command squad that I use for fluffy or fun lists is as follows:

Captain with Relic Blade, Combimelta(SS would be more optimal, I agree, but I love the BS5 combimelta), Artificer Armor

Apothecary with BP+CCW

Company Champion(mathhammer a WS5 powersword vs a lightning claw sometime!)

Veteran with Power Fist and Company Standard

Veteran with Storm shield and Bolt Pistol

Veteran with Bolt pistol and Chainsword

TLHB Razorback or Rhino

 

185 for the squad alone(don't factor transport cost in unless you're going to add the land raider cost to terminators :D ) 380 inc. my config captain and a TLHB razorback.

The squad has 3 models with invulns to dump low AP fire onto, though one is the freebie champ upgrade and should only be used as a last resort, has some decent hitting power in CC(not fantastic mind, but good enough to mulch troops with 3 SCCWs). I have tried 2x SS on this unit but found that with the attached captain I rarely had to rely on the (4th) invulnerable save, any time the squad was taking more than 1-2 shots of low AP fire it was going to be wiped out anyways.

One nice thing about this setup is that you can drop krak missiles either on the SS guy, the bodybag, or if both are dead, onto the captain as he still gets his 2+ vs it. Most powerfists and SCCWs will be targeted at the captain anyways so the second squad SS is largely irrelevant in CC and as a fallback the champ has his combat shield randomness save(which I have successfully taken lascannon hits on mind, but the inverse is also true). Past 1500 pts I would hardly consider this unit above terminators but it can toe to toe with most line CC units such as CSM or grey hunters no problem even if I'd be careful not to get it too close to terminators of any variety.

 

EDIT: Oh, I prefer the quad plasma variety in a rhino in larger games just because it gives my army a whole lot of anti elite/MC/skimmer firepower in one tough and mobile(rhino mobile anyways) unit, but the CC variety will always hold a special place in my armylists at sub 1500 levels, as with a few upgrades you have a very tough relatively inexpensive unit that can chew through anyone's basic troops no problems.

[Meatman]

Apothecary with BP+CCW

Company Champion(mathhammer a WS5 powersword vs a lightning claw sometime!)

Veteran with Power Fist and Company Standard

Veteran with Storm shield and Bolt Pistol

Veteran with Bolt pistol and Chainsword

 

 

 

Exactly the same as my build I posted in this same thread. Great minds think alike ;)

[Xeonic]

Well, even thought it was stated I thought I'd throw in my input, as it is the tried and tested setup I run lately. I first tried packing in as many power weapons as I could but the cost and tendency to overkill and expose themselves to fire in my opponents turn were both a negative aspect in that regard. That's the setup I settled upon after great deliberation as both cost efficient and reasonably effective. I also found that packing in upgrades merely made them pale even more in comparison with assault terminators. Command squads kitted for melee aren't a hammer unit in the same way as assault terminators are but IMO they are for sure a useful addition to any small-medium points list.

 

As far as advantages over termies, #1 is that they don't require a Land Raider, but can ride in one if they have to, Rhinos and razors work great and have been used by chaos players for years as assault transport lite. #2 being that they have feel no pain, giving them a nice durability to fire comparable in most situations to terminators without quite the cost. #3 is the big one and that's how configurable they are. Morale rerolls? Sure. Ranged weapons? Okay! Storm shields, okay! The command squad is one of our most versatile entries and can be set up to work in almost any situation pretty well.

Back to rhinos. In my experience and meta(mind that though I don't own a land raider model, but have proxied/borrowed a few times) Land Raiders are one of those things that everyone brings a counter for. As I don't regularly field a Land Raider those melta/lance weapons are forced to fire at secondary, non optimal targets, which suits me fine.

Some people swear by hammernators in a land raider, and I totally get that, but they don't fit my playstyle and I hardly think they're the =I win= button some people seem to feel they are.

No, my command/veteran squads don't do the same role nearly as well/cost efficiently in some respects, but I never expect them to.

[/end hammernator comparison rant]

[Validar]

First of all I love the command squad and run a crazily tooted up one myself.

 

*somewhat in approach to what Xeonic said

They don't require a land raider, but if you're bringing one anyway, why in all the world would you put command squad inside it instead of terminators (we're talking about maxing out units, disregarding general metagame/fluff etc.)?

The land raider is a certain threat, the command squad is a certain threat. If you mix those two you more than double their thread because the whole is more than the sum of the parts, so to speak - a loaded land raider can lock things in combat, take out units both by shooting and melee, etc.

But the bat for the buck you get from terminators will almost always be greater than the command squad, simply because they don't need upgrades - they've got the best stuff already! Stormshield and terminator armor goes without saying, thunder hammers will crack up anything from heavy infantry to monsterous creatures to vehicles. If you feel you're lacking anti infantry you just take lightning claws aswell... At no cost, they've already got everything they would ever need.

It is a simple point compare, and in the land raider case, the terminators simply win.

 

About configurability: This doesn't matter. That you can gear up a unit for several roles doesn't make it good.

My sternguard are the kings of shooting, taking up super cheap combi weapons on their bolters of pure, smecking awesomeness. Sure, the command squad can do decent shooting, but you'll be paying an arm and a leg for it, and they'll never be quite as good as the specialists.

My terminators are awesome in melee, they can take hits from anything, all the time. They can wound everything in the game and smash through vehicles as they please. Sure the command squad can do just aswell as soon as you've paid the inside of your eyes, your firstborn child and your left testicle.

 

Point being, ofcourse, that the amount of options doesn't matter if there are specialists who can do it better/cheaper. You may be able to set up command squads to outshoot most enemies, or gear them up to handle most enemies in melee, but once you've got them on the board you've chosen a path for them and then they compare only to the specialists.

[Xeonic]

Ask a Necron player if configurability matters in a unit sometime. That is all.

 

The command squad can spam specials better than anything else in our codex, even sternguard, though they can take combis to make up for that.

They also get the oft-coveted FnP save vs plasma, a luxury codex marines sternguard lack for either combi-plas or Vengeance rounds.

They can be as specialized or as generalized as you want as well, with every man a TH/SS+melta toting monster, or just BP+CCW vets plus maybe a fist if you wanted a cheapish, durable CC threat.

They don't require a Land Raider and purchasing one for them is silly when you could just take Terminators in that role. They can however ride in one comfortably if necessary, and would(I imagine) work reasonably well as a (counter) assault element assaulting from a Godhammer due to actually having grenades.

 

I was also trying to point out that a CC command squad doesn't really compete for terminators for a role, and attempting to do so(lightning claw or TH/fist+SS on every man) would be silly, you'd end up with a very expensive unit that would still most of the time be relying on a 3+ armor save(feel no pain helps though).

Command squads do just a couple things better than other entries in our book, plasma spam, and light cheapish troop mulching in CC(where they compete with vanguard and honor guard, as termies are expensive by necessity).

 

Plus command squads are totally requisite for a truly fluffy demi-company list.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

My problem with command squads is that as a special weapons unit, they are unique. You just can't take 4 plasmas or meltas or flamers anywhere else! This kinda makes the command squad shooting based, which the captain isnt! The Cappy is a close combat beast and I almost feel its essential to support his role, as a heavy hitter.

 

I think I could jusitfy 4 flamers or meltas as they are on the go assault weapons, plasma would have to run seperate.

 

I think i'd take a command squad of: champ, banner, lightning claw, flamer or melta. It'll give me moderate CC power and an assault gun.