Facing a fake Angel

[Murcielago]

Hey guys, this might seem selfish but in my gaming group, we take our races/armies very seriously and we are in a conundrum right now...I am connected to my Angels very deeply as I like the army fluff, characters, playstyle, and even color schemes, so in short: I love them.

 

A close friend of mine who plays vanilla marines decided to switch after he tried out my codex for a battle, based entirely on the fact that he can make "invincible" units with priests and death company...as such, I feel like he is a disgrace to our group and I want to beat the living snot out of him in a game to show him that an army takes more dedication than just liking some rules.

 

He favors a list with a termie deathstar that includes a priest, chappy and assault termies, typically mounted in a crusader. other than that, he likes assault marines and dc. As I am wanting to beat him without my angels, I will fight him with either orks or dark eldar...Any ideas on how to crush his lists???

[Sanguinarian]

It might seem unfair of me to make a snap assumption, but who's the real fake angel here? Your friend who realizes that Blood Angels are awesome or you whose avator is that of the Night Lords???!!!??? Add that to what a famous nightshow host used to say, "Things that make you go...hmmmmmm!?!?!"

[Murcielago]

wow...thanks for the help

 

also, my avatar is a nightlord since i just finished soulhunter. it used to be a deathcompany marine

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

People like that never stay with one army long... as soon as he finds out that he still sucks with his 'invincible' squads he will move onto something else.

[Marshal Rohr]

Your whining that a friend (implying that you like this person more than most others through common interests/experiences) and now that he has found an army that he enjoys playing with more than his previous one you dont want him to because its your army, and he is just copying?

 

 

Are you being serious? Come on? Really....

[Murcielago]

hey, im not looking for a debate here, i'm looking for some ideas on how to beat his list...mind helping???

[BOBMAKENZIE]

hey, im not looking for a debate here, i'm looking for some ideas on how to beat his list...mind helping???

 

Now hold on. We all have those friends abit like what you're describing but theres no reason to get really vindictive against them and there is especially no reason to get super vindicitive against us just because we tried to point that out. They are trying to help out by pointing out that what you are trying to do is rather unreasonable.

 

As for the issue of beating a Chaplain/Assault Terminator/Priest/Raider unit. Thats a question of what you use. WHat you have available and what you like to use. Meltas will deal with Terminators, raiders and priests the best. But a sacrificial unit could deal wiht a priest in combat too. Think about what deals with your units and what you would be concerned about. Since you are the epitome of Blood Angel playing you should have a decent idea. But of course thats not too helpful given the armies you are considering.

 

It sounds like a few heat lance units and then spammed Dark Lances/Blasters could probably deal with his list alright. DE will also be faster then him in alot of ways mostly. Incubi might out Death star his Im not sure on the numbers. I'd run it through but Im tired and you havent exactly ingratiated me into doing you any favours.

 

With orks its a tough one. A sacrificial unit can likely peg the ICs out of the squad and then boys could drag the termies down. The land raider is the hardest thing to deal with really but standards still apply. Power Klaws, SAGs and DeffRollas.

[syypher]

People here pretty much lightly called you names for being the way you are to your friend because hes "copying my race." You didn't like it obviously. For one your motives are very childish. Wanting to beat the snot out of him because he wants to play another army that is fun for him. So that's probably why people didn't want to help you in the first place.

 

However take advice from Chaplain. Your friend probably won't stick to one army long if he keeps finding "new awesome things" about other armies and just switches on the fly. Every army has something cool about them that might make them seem "invincible."

 

 

To answer your question if your a superior general with your Blood Angels to him then you should already know the weakness of the units you suggested that he uses often, but I guess to remind you...

 

-Death Company hate getting charged by high I with power weapons

-Death Company hate getting shot at by anything AP2 since it will negate their FNP and not make them feel so "invincible" anymore

-Death Company when getting the charge will almost always completely murder their target. Especially if they have 1x PF, a few PW's and a Chaplain/Reclusiarch. In other words, don't let them get the charge

-Death Company have rage. Wheel him around with a transport that he has to keep running after.

 

-Terminators hate hordes. Hordes and Hordes of shots or assaults. They die by being drowned in dice.

 

-Land Raiders are slow. With that being said just counter-deploy him if he get's first turn and run around killing the rest of his army while his LR catches up. Or if you got first turn and he counter-deployed you, if your playing DE I think your stuff is fast enough to take your first turn redeploying to strike at his weakest side.

 

-Abuse the fact that Sanguinary Priests are IC's.

 

 

I don't know what's in your Orc or DE Codex so I can't make any suggestions there but taking what I said above in mind you should be able to find something in your Codex's to deal with your friends newfound happiness.

[Zeller]

Hellions with those grapples that pull IC out of squads. Try that on the priest. Just have enough of something else to kill the rest of the guy's escort.

 

I know a guy at my LGS that hops onto the bandwagons. I admit it is a bit dissappointing to hear that the guy has switched armys but at the end of the day it's not really a big deal. If that's how he enjoys the hobby, getting a taste of everything, that's cool. I've even encouraged my friends in a kidding manner to play BA. The difference between your group and mine though is that your group seems to hold quite a strong bond with your armies. All I can say is that you should just let it go man. He does it, okay. You still have your little red marines and you know them well enough. Now get out there and show him why you are the better commander.

[Morticon]

Okay kids, since you all dont seem to know how things work here or have maybe forgotten, let me break it down.

 

From our rules:

The Bolter & Chainsword promotes constructive discussion about all aspects of the Warhammer 40,000 hobby. This is a public forum that is viewed by members from a wide range of age groups and cultural backgrounds. Please be considerate of others when composing your replies.

 

A lot of the replies to Murcielago were not helpful or in line with what he was asking. So how bout living up to our name here and helping out a bit with what he said thanks.

 

Sanguinarian, Chaplain Gunzhar, Marshal2Crusaers - all of you guys should know better. Your replies were either not constructive in ANY way or not in line with what was being asked.

 

Zeller - this is also from our rules:

 

 

If you feel a post is violating the forum rules, please don't put on a tin-moderator-badge from that new box of Cocoa Puffs you just got at the store. Simply use the REPORT button. This will notify all the mods of that particular forum of the issue.

 

And finally - Murcielago - you're getting a warning for your comment.

 

The guys were unhelpful and thats their bad, but taking it to the next level is offsides.

Either explain yourself better, repeat what you're looking for or exercise a little more patience/tough skin. If that fails or you take issue with what is being said, you have the report button.

 

-Morticon.

[Morticon]

Incubi are a good bet against us. Can get high STR and INIT with power weapons.

Lances also wreck raiders.

If he likes assault troops then the 2 flying vehicles from the DE are great with the 4 STR6 big blast templates. They chew through infantry. Even with Power Armour.

 

That being said, why dont you learn from what hes doing and try apply it to your lists and let it grow your ability as a player. You may find you both learn a few new tricks.

 

Also, when the new rules came out, I did everything I could, with the help of fellow mods to make sure we kept the forum open and welcoming to all new members, old and new. Veterans and bandwagoners - unlike in other forums that seemed to take exception to new players interested in the new dex.

 

Why dont you try develop your mates interest in the BA from a background and hobbying perspective too? We have such incredible fluff and history and great modelling/painting ops.

Rather welcome a fellow battle brother and grow stronger with the BA together than try take each other a peg or two down.

[Grey Mage]

I can understand the irritation- for years I was 'the space wolf guy' at my LGS and now half the chaos players and a third of the marine players have in the last four or five months made the switch to SWs- and only one is actually painting them up as such. Its getting somewhat irksome.

 

Partially thats my irrational enjoyment of being a little odd, feelings of displacement since I took a hiatus during that period and came back... and seem to have lost the enjoyable nickname. Part of it though is that playing against your own codex, alot, gets BORING.

 

If your going to talk to your friend about it, you might bring that up. No one wants to be bored over a game they spent a thousand bucks on in the last few years.

[Murcielago]

And I will admit that I was out of line there, I've had a very bad x-mas today and was already trying to blow off some steam and thought I'd ask you guys what you think on how to beat him. The answers I recieved at first were very aggravating since they didn't say anything helpful or constructive and I did say at the beginning of the post that it was kind of selfish and I hoped that people would ignore that, but I guess humans are humans.

 

Anyways, sorry for the commotion. As I said, my gaming group is also very tightknit, and our armies are very important to each of us and to just join another army out of the cheesy perks doesnt fly well there (the rest of the group doesnt even like it) so it might be hard for you guys to understand that.

 

But whatever, I've always beaten him down before and nothing will stop me now

[SnorriSnorrison]

And I will admit that I was out of line there, I've had a very bad x-mas today

 

Hey man, that's not nice. Christmas is one of the days where the whole familiy comes together to eat, drink and banter around, it's not only the material that matters. :)

I hope that it was not too bad.

 

[...]was already trying to blow off some steam and thought I'd ask you guys what you think on how to beat him. The answers I recieved at first were very aggravating since they didn't say anything helpful or constructive and I did say at the beginning of the post that it was kind of selfish and I hoped that people would ignore that, but I guess humans are humans.

 

Anyways, sorry for the commotion. As I said, my gaming group is also very tightknit, and our armies are very important to each of us and to just join another army out of the cheesy perks doesnt fly well there (the rest of the group doesnt even like it) so it might be hard for you guys to understand that.

 

But whatever, I've always beaten him down before and nothing will stop me now

 

I can understand your emotions quite a bit. Before the new dex came out, I was, in a way just like Grey Mage, the only Blood Angels player in "my" GW. People even asked me why I was not using the SM dex, and were even more surprised when I said "well they wouldn't be Blood Angels then, would they?"

Those people didn't care for fluff, only for winning games in a friendly environment with their maxed-up tourney lists. I mean, where's the fun in crushing a new player with Vulkan melta and DP spam lists?

As I said, I can understand your grief to an extent, but time will show who is the "better" player - if he gets bored by the Blood Angel codex, he will hop off to the next thing, maybe even GKs in February. If he becomes custom to the Blood Angels, be joyful for you have won another battle brother and then, with you being an Veteran, you can teach him the ways of the codex in a fluffy way accepted by your gaming group.

 

And if your gaming group don't like him, I'm quite sure that he will leave anyway...

 

 

For your list, I can agree to the majority of what the others said: Hellions can tear pull the Priests out of the squads and make them vulnerable, especially if you manage to pull out both the Chaplain and Priest off his deathstar Terminators, he will be screwed. :)

The Landraider shouldn't matter as you have a ton of lances in your DE army, as well as AP 3 templates.

Archons, Inccubi and those other gladiator-style troops can really wreck a squad apart if the priest's gone(in case of Archon and Inccubi even with the Priest attached!).

Raiders are, as always, the key to win. Take out threats to your raiders early and then charge the hell out of them.

 

 

Well, I'm not sure if that was helpful, but I hope it was.

 

To the mods, it wasn't my intention to put on my tin-moderator-badge and if I did so, I deeply apologize. Those cocoa puffs will kill me in the end. :)

 

 

 

Snorri

[Commander Sasha]

Codex-jumping is something all gamers will have to get accustomed to, as it will always happen.

 

Some are bandwaggoners, jumping for the 'newest bestest shiniest one to win as soon as they can'. I don't like them.

Some love the hobby, and want to buy, paint and play as much as they can. If I won the lottery, I'd be one of them!

Some never try anything new, and I think they're missing out.

 

I have built counts-as lists for my vanilla marines from SW and BA, played a few games, had some new ideas, and then returned to my original army, but with a new perspective. I missed my Thunderfire, plus Sasha didn't look good Blonde, and as for the bodyhair issue when she counted-as-Wolfie...

 

Encourage your friends to explore, it can only mean more challenges for you, plus, if you don't like the fact that his army is overpowered when he uses your codex, err, isn't that how others in your group might think about you?!?!

On first glance, C:BA seemed very overpowered; reasoned discussion has shown that it isn't, particularly, and if you've played your army well, you will know your, and therefore his, weaknesses. If you can't beat his list, you might consider learning from him!

 

Good luck, and please don't lose a friend over a few plastic soldiers :)

[Demoulius]

woah heated debate :rolleyes:

 

seems to have toned down abit though, for which im thankfull...

 

cant really add any other comments then what has already been mentioned. the deathstar unit hes mentioned seems VERY costy, in what gamesize is it taken? 1500? 2000? the army alongside it should be relativly small either way, consider taking out the rest and just keep the deathstar distracted. mounted they can only move 12 inches a turn max, and if you pop it only 6 inches a turn as movement (disregarding running here)

 

a deathstar unit without mobility is a useless deathstar unit. take out his mobility and it shouldnt be much of a problem. deathcompany can be kited around and/or killed easily by AP 1, AP2, instant killing weapons (double strength compared to tougness) or powerweapons attacks as all effectivly negate FNP and pretty much chop the DC to tiny bits :D

 

hope that some help at least! may the emperor guide your hand (even if you decide to go against him with xenos) and i hope the rest of your christmass holiday will be filled with some joy regardless of how the last few days went.

[SamaNagol]

Being in possession of an Orks and Dark Eldar force would imply that the friend is not the only codex hopper.

 

It was the disdain for other people's enjoyment of the hobby which evoked such a negative response

[Captain Juan Juarez]

What's say we drop how the post was phrased/taken and simply help the guy out?

 

Whether you agree with him or not, let christmas cheer/fear of the warth of Moderati bring you back on course :rolleyes:

[Brother Nathan]

My sugestion. If hes a codex jumper, beat him with dark eldar. cause then hell want to swap to them. orks are cool, but most people know their ins and outs. dark eldar on the other hand...plently of tricks to keep him thinking and from realising that his army isnt invincible. although just dont let him see thunder wolf cavelery...or it will be yor bane. so yeah thats something to think about...

[Drachnon]

Well I can't help much with dark eldar since I know next to nothing about their codex. But Orks I know quite a bit off (play them myself).

 

So far when dealing with terminators using orks I prefer swamping them in saves using shoota boyz and a Nob with powerklaw. Depending on if he uses thunderhammers or lightning claws you might consider Burnaboyz. A ful squad of them can put out upto 45 powerweapon attacks on the charge (at I2 so against lightning claws it won't work so well).

If you want to snipe the IC's Orks have the perfect model for it in the form Old Zogwort which can target IC's in squads at 18" range (more then terminators charge).

 

The landraider is the hardest part, with the exception of powerklaws Orks aren't that great at killing vehicles. In my gaming group there's only one who uses a landraider but even then he doesn't use it regularly so I've never been able to test my strategies against them but in theory you can throw a sacrificial warbike squad at it. For 160 points you have a nob with powerklaw and 4 normal orkbikers to take a few hits. If you can charge the landraider you have 4 S9 attacks to wreck the landraider.

 

Lastly once the deathstar is on foot a shock attack gun can be devastating though not very reliable in its effectiveness (though its priceless to see the look on your opponents face when most of his deathstar unit gets eaten by a shockattack gun shot that rolls double 6 for strength). Still if you hit and roll something normal for the strength you have a large AP2 blast that probably wounds on 2+ which means byebye terminators.

 

EDIT:

Btw in our group there's only one person who really makes a problem about who plays what codex, he even complained when someone other then him wanted to play eldar (even though their armies were nothing alike). The rest of us don't mind people swithing, I even encouraged someone to switch one of his armies to BA cause he couldn't play them anymore with vanilla marines.

[Whitefireinferno]

I have some mates Like the OP's And Issues have come up lately about me Re-starting MY Flesh Tearers and they pretty much said "your an egg (creative license there) Thats using the BA codex that is coming out and that is <Censored> Army" then got told I am not allowed to start them because somebody else plays them.

 

What I did was Ignore them and Started My army However I have been working on one of my other armies (TauXENOSFARSIGHT) I told them they were being Childish and get off their high horses about armies I now want to start a Ork Goff army using alot of fantasy Black Orks And Bikers with a couple of Wagons for the Scratch building Lols, Our Ork Player does not like this but I do not care I just want a army that is not RED so I can become good at painting something different.

 

So OP why not look to yourself and see that you now have DE and Orkz and Marines of somesort now surely you cannot embody all of these so Let your mate jump from codex to codex or try to get him to Build different armies instead of the thousand colour marines that can be everyone.

[Fortunate Son]

My advice would be twofold.

 

One, against terminator armies the vindicator always seems to be handy.

-Assault cannons are also useful.

Two, to echo a previous comment, get in close and kill off his priests.

 

That's gonna be the best way to get rid of his hammer unit.

[the jeske]

yes get close to a unit of SS/TH+LC termis with FnP and 2 IC in a LR ;/ great idea.

 

If this is suppose to be a tailored anti death strike army then it is rather easy to do with DE they are the worse match up for a death start or elite hvy army.

 

Now paersonaly I find tailoring stupid and not realy proving much , because BA or generaly meq can tailor against DE, better then BA can tailor against a specific meq builds at least. But it is your choice . Play 1500 because at more points lists stoped being death starts or have too many support units . at 1500 his army will have 1/2 [or close to it] in a single unit . And dont let it get in to hth . slogging terms should never see hth against an army like DE and if they do its probably turn 4-5 and they are being hit byt 2-3 squads with 2-3 HQ/Ic class characters. take cheap stuff dont try to out death star a meq army .for example take 2x5 scourges and drop them near the LR to pop it[ and yes they will die] and then let them walk the rest of the game . take 2-3 cheap IC that can dish out some pain , but keep them cheap in case the termis try to konga objectives . make your "friend" , who seems to play a hth hvy army, not play at all , dont let him get in to hth unless the squads are realy understrengh and generaly make it a NPE for him . If the same happens in 5-6 games with different people he is going to quit probably [because am guessing that is your goal right ?].

[Cambrian]

Why not use your BA's as a counts as Vanilla marine list? I know you don't like that he did that, but maybe rolling him with a SM list will make him decide to switch back... :)

 

It's not like his list is exceptional; if you lock-up/slow down his deathstar unit he have so little else that you should be able to cut the rest down. In an objective mission that means he'll have nothing to score with.

[BorisBC]

I've got an idea, use your BA's as a counts as SW force, your opponent will see how they are teh awesome, and switch to them instead. I'm surprised he's even using BA's as don't most people who use a different codex than their own use SW?

 

Yeah get in close for the priests - as IC's they have to move first when piling in, so you can snot them pretty easily in CC.