Land Speeder Squadrons

[DarkGuard]

Hi there. I only recently purchased, made and painted a pair of MM/HF Land Speeders, and have played a couple of missions with them. At first I had them in one squadron of two Speeders. The reasoning behind this was to keep them mobile, and I'd probably fire both multi-meltas or heavy flamers at the same target anyway. However, recently I've been considering running them as two squadrons of one. I have the Fast Attack slots available, but doing this will mean more kill points and I won't be able to keep the squadrons mobile all the time.

 

So I'm wondering what you run your Speeders as. Do you run them all singularly if the have the slots? If you don't have the slots which do you prefer to run as squadrons? Or do you still run them all as squadrons even if you have the slots to run them singularly?

[Ming]

I have two of the original lead MM/HF speeders, and use them singles when I can spread them out, or squadroned when I need the FA slots open for other things.

 

That said, I want to get in the near future long range speeders to replace them. When we see alot of games using kill points, MM/HF speeders are too short ranged and their use immediately opens you up for counterassault and loss. The MM/HF speeders only have two real tatical uses: (1) suicide attacks on high value targets (landraiders, or other enemy tanks, or bunched enemy support or leadership targets); or (2) late game objective spoilers. Because they are so fragile, you need to hide or reserve them to keep them available for their selected tactical purpose. If you had the parts to model them, dual MM speeders would be better as anti-armor units.

 

Longer range speeders (cycclone/AC) may be better in my local metagame - able to peak out and kill enemy trukks or transports or MCs all game, and in the end game running out to contest an objective.

 

Good luck in your games!

[Meatman]

I always max out my fast attack slots so when I run speeders, they are always a squadron. Easier to take advantage of cover so helps keep them safer.

[Captain Idaho]

Typhoons, like most Landspeeders, work best when rolling all the dice together, so I advise squadroning them in pairs. Similarly I reccomend using solo weaponed Speeders in squadrons (basically Multi-meltas). Exceptions to this are those Landspeeders intended to be used as suicide units.

 

Dual Heavy Bolters Landspeeders are screaming out to be squadroned fire support units!

[Shadowstalker Grim]

One of the things i wonder about is the typhoon pattern, a 40 point upgrade for some decent medium strength firepower, but to me a speeder can take decent high strength melta weapons and flamer weapons and be more deadly. After all its 70 for a speeder with the MM/HF combo, but why pay 90 for the weaker HB/ML combo?

 

The only thing I can really thing of being a major point between them is the operating distance. Is it ever worth those extra points, or am i missing something?

 

Generally I would think to taking the speeders as seperate would be the best approach as it means you can use them for what their weaponry was intended and over multiple targets, theres not too much contending with them either in the FA slot for it to be too problematic.

[Meatman]

One of the things i wonder about is the typhoon pattern, a 40 point upgrade for some decent medium strength firepower, but to me a speeder can take decent high strength melta weapons and flamer weapons and be more deadly. After all its 70 for a speeder with the MM/HF combo, but why pay 90 for the weaker HB/ML combo?

 

The only thing I can really thing of being a major point between them is the operating distance. Is it ever worth those extra points, or am i missing something?

 

 

When using a multi-melta or heavy flamer, you need to be down the enemy's throats. The downside to this is that you can be downed by even small arms fire from a tact squad. Death from glancing hits.

 

The 48" range on the typhoons allows you to sit out of range of the majority of the other players weapons. So they have to dedicate anti-tank firepower on it, which means your other vehicles can survive longer, or that the typhoons are lower on the firing priorites.

[Captain Idaho]

Well I'm a squadron man so I feel that Landspeeders almost always benefit from squadroning. Of course I agree that a MM/HF works best alone IMHO. This is because rolling a fist full of dice to get a job done will offset those times we have a bit of bad luck or need to ensure something is destroyed.

 

As for why take Typhoons? Only someone who hasn't enjoyed the joy of using them would question them! Typhoons grant essentially 3 heavy weapons for 90pts, are fast enough to get side armour shots with 2 krak missiles into armoured targets, can fire all their weapons at the appropriate target when moving 12" due to frag missiles being defensive can fire at anything barring 2+ armour saves or AV13+ and acheive good results consistantly.

 

All this and like you said, using them at range to avoid destruction is fairly easy due to their long range.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Not to mention you're almost guaranteed side armor shots with proper positioning of the typhoons. Gotta love 'em.

[DarkGuard]

So the general consensus seems to be to use Typhoons in squadrons of 2, to maximise the chances of killing something, and using the MM/HF speeders in squadrons of one. I'd imagine this falls under the 'suicide' units that you mentioned earlier Idaho, considering how they operate at small range.

 

I've always used my fast melta (attack bikes) in squadrons of 2, even if I have free slots, as I always felt that the melta benefits from being in squadrons of two. However, I suppose that you can always send both squadrons to combat the same vehicle if needed. The real benefits of the squadrons is the ability to keep moving and rolling all dice at the same time (not to mention being able to get more hits on 2 flamers simultaneously, rather than one after another). I think I'll have to try them out singularly more, and in squadrons more, and see what works best for me.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I actually use my Land Speeders in squadrons. The Land Speeders in question are toting two multi-meltas each. I'm considering splitting them up, but offering an extra kill point 1/3rd of the time is factor.

[garreth]

I use 3 dual-HB speeders in squadron. 18 36" S5 ap4 shots for 180 pts is preaty good for me.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I suppose the problem is also that typhoons lose out on that high strength fast melta, i mean, they lose out on the ability to put as much hurt on heavy tanks and only threaten light ones

[Captain Idaho]

I suppose the problem is also that typhoons lose out on that high strength fast melta, i mean, they lose out on the ability to put as much hurt on heavy tanks and only threaten light ones

 

Indeed, you pretty much have to have alternative weapons for heavy armour.

 

Trust me though, when you use your Typhoons right you will relish each shooting phase!

[breng77]

I'm not really understanding the you should squadron so you can get more shots rationale. 2 Separate speeders are always more effective at shooting than 1 squad of 2 speeders (unless you just like rolling more dice at one time). With 2 separate speeders I can shoot both at the same target if I need to, or if my first speeder takes care of the target, the second one can then shoot another target and possibly damage that target. I agree with the idea that the typhoon is the most versatile speeder, the MM/HF is nice if you need another melta platform (though I prefer attack bikes in this role).

[Meatman]

@breng77

That's not true when it comes to templates. With 2 typhoons, you can fire 4 frag templates at the enemy before they remove casualties. If they were seperate then it would be 2 before removing them, which would then reduce the shooting of the second speeder.

 

Same with heavy flamers, overlapping 7 with each flamer is better then 7, then 5 due to casualties. You see where I'm coming from?

 

Similarly, squadrons of other vehicles will be more damaged by volume of fire. 4 missiles on a 3 vehicle squad means they can all take a hit, so that demolisher hiding with "at the time, less threatening" russes might have to take the hit. It's like wound allocation, enough wounds and the more specialist members of the squad have to take them.

[Captain Idaho]

It's just the nature of dice rolling and lady luck. Roll 2 dice to hit and miss one with your Krak missiles and you only have 1 penetration roll. You then repeat this with your 2nd Typhoon.

 

Together you roll a fist full of dice (especially with the heavy bolters as well) you stand a greater chance of overcoming bad luck.

 

Don't know the maths of it but I have had average results at best with solo Typhoons yet paired do alot more damage.

 

My own personal experience aside, the squadron rules enable you to take advantage of ever mobile vehicles that can always fire. At long range you can easily put one in cover and have the other open to benefit from a cover save for the squadron yet still maintain firepower at full capacity.

[pueriexdeus]

I actually use my Land Speeders in squadrons. The Land Speeders in question are toting two multi-meltas each. I'm considering splitting them up, but offering an extra kill point 1/3rd of the time is factor.

I am wondering how you justify having two MM on a speeder if it can only use one at a time, if you move? Is there some new rule???

[breng77]

That's not true when it comes to templates. With 2 typhoons, you can fire 4 frag templates at the enemy before they remove casualties. If they were seperate then it would be 2 before removing them, which would then reduce the shooting of the second speeder.

 

True with templates firing simultaneously is better. I don't see many people running squadroned Vehicles so I don't worry about that in gerneral, if they are that makes it easier to destroy those same vehicles., but I see your point in this case.

 

It's just the nature of dice rolling and lady luck. Roll 2 dice to hit and miss one with your Krak missiles and you only have 1 penetration roll. You then repeat this with your 2nd Typhoon.

 

Together you roll a fist full of dice (especially with the heavy bolters as well) you stand a greater chance of overcoming bad luck.

 

Mathematically there is no difference between shots fired by 2 seperate vehicles instead of shots fired by squadroned vehicles. 2 Seperate speeders, have the same damage output as 2 squadroned speeders. While it is true that the more dice you roll the greater the chance that you will roll with the probability instead of having a great or horrible roll, this has nothing to do with rolling dice simultaneously. i.e. 6 dice rolled one at a time have the same effect (statistically) as 6 dice rolled at the same time.

 

 

They can also move apart from one another which if you are trying to contest objectives late in the game is useful. Lastly having speeders in squadrons presents fewer targets to your opponent. My Opinion is that if I take 3 or fewer speeders they will always be separate, that way they can threaten more targets. 3 Separate typhoons can kill 3 targets a turn (potentially), 3 Squadroned Typhoons can only kill one target.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I can see typhoons being very effective at making use of punching holes into side armour, the problem i have is the fast melta we lose out on. Yes it tends to make tornado speeders (MM,HF variant) suicide bombers, but at least means ive got a great weapon with which to chew into some of their toughest tanks and infantry, all the while making enough a nuiscence to draw fire and give other units time to advance, how do you compensate for loss of the fast melta, replace it with more? Or take lots of lascannons and high strength weapons?

[breng77]

I actually play a list with bikers as troops so I have no lack of fast melta (5 bikes squads at 1750 all with at least some melta weapons). It really depends on the rest of any particular list, do you even need fast melta in some lists, you could have Deep striking melta, or lascannon Razorbacks, or just melta guns on combat squads in Rhinos, there is more than one way to build a list. If you find that you need fast melta, it could be a speeder or an attack bike squad.

[Captain Idaho]

Taking a pair of Typhoons works out better because you are more likely to achieve what you aim to do in the shooting phase than solo firing. Splitting your fire means you end up acheiving less, hence a solid reason why I take the pair of Typhoons.

 

Just try the 2 methods with Typhoons & you will see what I mean...

 

Not that it matters, just taking Typhoons is good!

[breng77]

Except that statistically your not more likely to achieve what you want. It is all about options. With 2 speeders I can either split my fire or fire on the same target.

 

If I fire on the same target my ability to hurt it (except with templates) is equivalent to that of 2 speeders in a squad.

 

However, if I shoot a tank with my first 2 krak missiles and damage it (wreck it, keep if from shooting, or moving, what ever my goal may be), then I can shoot a different target with my second speeder, this is an option that a squad does not have. They ability to destroy 2 targets in 1 turn.

 

SO while 4 Krack missiles are more likely than 2 to destroy a vehicle (if that is what you are shooting at.) Sometimes 2 is enough. For me it is all about options. Options which the squadron rules remove. In addition a squadron can be destroyed in by a single unit, while separate speeders cannot be.

 

This is not to say that there are no reasons to take squadrons of land speeders, or any advantages over taking single speeders, the ability to deal damage is not one of these (unless you are firing a lot of Frag templates, something I rarely find my self doing.) .

[Captain Idaho]

I love using the frag missiles! When up against Marines in cover it is great getting like 8+ hits plus the heavy bolters.

 

As for statistically speaking firing separately, I agree there should be no difference, but having them together nets clean results. Having options is great of course, but some players, myself included, work on a basis on a decisive result, so as to limit how many targetting decisions I need to make. More decisions means more potential mistakes.

 

Plus ignoring shaken and stunned results is gorgeous!

[breng77]

Squadrons don't ignore shaken, just stunned. So it is possible that one (or both) speeders will be unable to shoot. My playstyle leans mroe toward options, instead of over kill. If I don't need 2 speeders to kill a target, I'll only use one, and the other can do something else. It is not that I don't like Frags, but my speeders spend much of the game as hunting tanks (or FNP blood angels) and use krak missiles. I will fire Frags, but the are usually the secondary option.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Trust me though, when you use your Typhoons right you will relish each shooting phase!

 

You know when you put on warm underwear after a cold shower? Yea, that feeling. :P

 

Tyhoons definitely work better in pairs. I'd rather roll 4 dice against a transport than 2 mainly because I definitely want to open that thing up then and there. Also, like others have stated before, there are cover benefits for landspeeders, who are not very durable to begin with, in squadrons.

 

I like running 2x2 typhoons and 2 MM/HF in a squadron. I put each squadron on different sides of the table edge making it very hard for my opponent to protect their tanks and transports against side armor shots. Stack the typhoons with inexpensive dakka preds and you have a very good, cheap long ranged support base that is able to tackle any problem short of heavy tanks. I use the MM/HF for the big tanks and hordes and maybe a sternguard squad as well for practically anything.