Conversion Legality Questions

[Redemption2994]

Okay. So I am incredibly new to Warhammer 40k. I split a Assault on Black Reach kit with a buddy and after a few months of off and on painting and purchasing our own battle forces, we finally sat down and learned how to play. I got into it more for the customization of my own army and he for the game itself. But my question would be; Is it legal to, for example, say convert a set of Space Marine Snipers to Chaos Space Marine Snipers or outfit my Current CSM marines with Sniper Rifles. Or in another example, the Tech Marine and the Thunderfire Cannon to a CSM likeness for use in my army. Ive seen nothing in the books on this (though neither of us own the full book yet.) Doing this doesn't appear to be that hard to me, because just today I had done some moderate Aesthetic Changes to alot of my units (and this being my first real experience with gluing units together and customizing after only having to snap together and paint the Black Reach Marines.) I know I could probably put together point cards to keep track of the values each addition would add to a units stats, and his point values, so Its not a matter of being manageable, but I want to know if they would ever have a real use outside of house games. Ex. Tournaments, Competitive Play.

 

I look forward to learning more about the game in the future so thanks in advance for helping a curious mind.

[Rogue Trader Voril]

Best rule of thumb is to pick the army (codex) you want to play, and then buy and build your minis collection around it. I currently play Blood Angels and like the way the Thunderfire Cannon looks, but it's not available to my codex. So getting one would be, except for artistic use, a waste of money. Tournaments are very particular about how things look and what they are on the table. Lost of people say 'that's inventive... or 'how original' for Do It Yourself (DIY) projects, but when it all comes down, if someone can't tell right off the bat what they are and how they are armed... it is going to get to be a hassle, and probably now allowed. As for 'counts as...' armies... spending a little time here will probably give you some good ideas about what would be acceptable and what's not.

 

Now, understanding that... you bought it, you do with it what you like. And have fun. It is just a game after all. Welcome aboard.

[Br0ther Rafen]

If your planning on playing in Tournies, it depends on what that Tfire will represent, because each armies codex has a specific list with options already available.

If you are planning on using a thunderfire in Choas Space Marine army list, then i am afriad that that would be ilegal. If you would like to make a Choas Space Marine force based on the Codex: Space Marine Army list, then that would be legal as long everything is clearly represented on the tabletop.

though, since you ar starting out, i wouldn't recomend going to a tourniment as soon as possible. Try going to your GW and playing a few games there, or among friends, to understand what is and what isn't iligal (spelling?).

[Redemption2994]

Thanks for putting that into perspective for me guys.

 

If you are planning on using a thunderfire in Choas Space Marine army list, then i am afriad that that would be ilegal. If you would like to make a Choas Space Marine force based on the Codex: Space Marine Army list, then that would be legal as long everything is clearly represented on the tabletop.

 

I've been doing some looking through my Codex for a bit now, and I havent seen anything in there about the sniper rifles or heavy support outside a selection of tanks so I would assume then that my CSM army can't use them. What exactly do you mean by using the Codex: Space Marine Army list for a CSM army? I could use some better clarification on that. So far All i've purchased was the CSM Battleforce, the Codex, and a Terminator Lord. The other units were for possible future investments.

 

Thanks again!

[Master of fact]

he means you use and paint your models to a chaos theme but use the Codex Space Marine's book. There are no snipers in the Chaos codex. They aint great anyway ( not terrible either).

[Redemption2994]

he means you use and paint your models to a chaos theme but use the Codex Space Marine's book. There are no snipers in the Chaos codex. They aint great anyway ( not terrible either).

 

And that would be considered street legal for Competitive Play at say, my local comic store? (we sadly dont have a games workshop anywhere near here.) If so, that would mean I would have to get the other Codex, and I could successfully integrate them legally into my current CSM force?

[Hellios]

Thanks for putting that into perspective for me guys.

 

If you are planning on using a thunderfire in Choas Space Marine army list, then i am afriad that that would be ilegal. If you would like to make a Choas Space Marine force based on the Codex: Space Marine Army list, then that would be legal as long everything is clearly represented on the tabletop.

 

I've been doing some looking through my Codex for a bit now, and I havent seen anything in there about the sniper rifles or heavy support outside a selection of tanks so I would assume then that my CSM army can't use them. What exactly do you mean by using the Codex: Space Marine Army list for a CSM army? I could use some better clarification on that. So far All i've purchased was the CSM Battleforce, the Codex, and a Terminator Lord. The other units were for possible future investments.

 

Thanks again!

 

What some people do is use the rule set of an army to play another. In many ways Chaos space marines and Loyalist marines are the same. However each codex is a bit different. Some people for example feel a codex other than theirs better represents their army of choice. For example if I wanted to play a Chaos raptor cult I might think that C:Blood Angels would be a better book to use, but my army would look like chaos raptors.

 

The key is that everything must be obvious and to some degree uniform. Some people might let you get away using sniper rifles (on the models) as bolters in your chaos army as long as you have no actual snipers (which chaos can't take anyway) and that all bolters in your army are represented as sniper rifles. From a tourny point of view if you really want snipers in your army the best bet would be to modify some bolters by giving them scopes and maybe extending the barrels to make them look more like sniper rifles.

 

If you want to use actual sniper rifle rules you would need to use other rules and then count your chaos units as loyalist units... for example raptors would use assault squad rules.

 

If you are just getting into the game I would suggest that you stay with stuff that is obviously what it is. So chaos unit as chaos units. If after you've built up your army you feel like you want to rey another rule set but make your chaos army larger then use your chaos marines as tactical marines and add in some chaos versions of landspeeders (or other units chaos can't take) and these can either be evil land speeders or some kind of daemon engine and so on.

 

Counts as is encouraged by many but things still have to be WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) to some degree.

[Redemption2994]

Thanks, that makes sense. I appreciate you guys taking the time to help me with this.

[Redemption2994]

Okay, so after painting with a friend today and discussing the conversions we've come to the conclusion that he won't play me even with house rules if I use some of the aforementioned conversions due to some test runs of my CSM against his Imperials. But while assembling the rest of my force Ive come across another question.

 

I really do not care for the huge bulky CSM Backpacks. Do I "have" to have Backpacks on my guys? I mean if I had Raptors then thats one thing. But without the backpacks, minus the heavy weapons crews, I prefer the look of them without the packs, as it gives them more of an infantry feel in my opinion. And the Khorne Berzerkers look even more out of place with them in my opinion. So tell me, Is it required to have that piece on? I know my Infantry need arms and legs, thats vital of course, but is the backpack a required piece on the model?

[Hemal]

Okay, so after painting with a friend today and discussing the conversions we've come to the conclusion that he won't play me even with house rules if I use some of the aforementioned conversions due to some test runs of my CSM against his Imperials. But while assembling the rest of my force Ive come across another question.

 

I really do not care for the huge bulky CSM Backpacks. Do I "have" to have Backpacks on my guys? I mean if I had Raptors then thats one thing. But without the backpacks, minus the heavy weapons crews, I prefer the look of them without the packs, as it gives them more of an infantry feel in my opinion. And the Khorne Berzerkers look even more out of place with them in my opinion. So tell me, Is it required to have that piece on? I know my Infantry need arms and legs, thats vital of course, but is the backpack a required piece on the model?

 

 

IF you are playing a PA army, the common convention is that you can play generally using the most appropriate codex for the force you wish to portray. C:SM may be appropriate for a Black Legion force, but say a Berserker cult, C:BA with lots of Death Company may be better, or else an Iron Warriors force may be better served using C:SM with Lysander acting as a War Smith.

 

Counts as is acceptable as long as there is no room for confusion. Sniper rifles in C:SM squads could be the squad plasma weapon, firing special rounds but prone to backfiring? Generally points are kinda balanced to Codex. Same thing in two seperate books may be costed differently as it is used in conjunction with other units. The TF cannon as is may be cheap in a Chaos book, but maybe overcosting it might be acceptable under house rules? Or maybe having it as a counts-as Defiler if you like teh model (Dreadnaught attacks from the techmarine, shooting attacks from the cannon itself)?

[cathar the great]

I personally see no reason to object to playing someone using counts-as armies.

 

As long as you don't mix and match codices there shouldn't be a problem. I'm building my current CSM army so I can switch between Codex Chaos Marines, Space Marines and Space Wolves with only minimal changes in squad composition..

[Tanhausen]

Most friendly games people don't have 100% of the miniatures represented and painted.

 

Say you have built most of your models as Chaos SM... and now want to try other stuff, for example the Thunderfire Cannon.

 

You pick up the Codex: Space Marines, climb to the highest building in the area and proclaim the founding of "XXXXXX" (the name of the chapter you like/made up/whatever).

 

Surprise surprise, they DO look quite a bit like chaos, but hey... who is anybody to tell you what armour and what weapons they should carry? If you friend is so fussy, ask him where does it say in a rulebook/codex that the armour has to be of a certain kind.

 

What is kind of important is that if the miniature carries a special loadout (say a missle launcher) and that its easily recognizable.

[MagicMan]

If you don't want backpacks, don't glue them on.

 

 

They don't perform any function ingame, and have no rule associated with them.

Noone has a right to complain.

 

 

You could even take your marines legs off and attach a pogo stick, it doesn't affect any game rules so noone can complain. They're your models, do what you like with them.

[Redemption2994]

Thanks guys, Good to know. Ill prolly spend this afternoon finishing up the Zerker force, I think Im going to end up going Khornate after all. After a few more games of playing with his finished Ork force against his Imperials I've noticed how much I like the rushing for close combat with them, and just a stat replacement on one group to see how well the Berzerkers would function (i mean we just used his group of orcs and made them Berzerkers until I could finish them lol) I got to see just how much Im looking forward to. So once I get some more money, and my birthday is coming up I think Ill end up picking up another battleforce because apparently the one I got isnt on the GW Site. This one instead of possessed had different numbers of marines and 3 Bikes plus the Rhino. That and maybe a Khârn the Betrayer off the site and I think my little dream of a Khornate Chapter will be started off quite Nicely. Thanks for the help guys!

[Commander Sasha]

You could even take your marines legs off and attach a pogo stick, it doesn't affect any game rules so noone can complain. They're your models, do what you like with them.

Why have I never thought of doing this? Stolen! (My Assault Marines ride hoverboards, using Star Wars skiffs, from a toy shop!)

 

Counts-As is a contentious issue; at one end are the die-hards and GW-run tournaments, where everything HAS to be exactly as sold, some people will even give you grief if you use an Ultramarine Special Character when your boys aren't blue!

At the other end, are people like me, who love wacky armies: I use a non-GW female model as my captain, my tanks have bald women with big guns hanging out the doors, and my other army uses the Tyranid codex, but the models are all Skaven (Rat men from Warhammer Fantasy)

 

I play in light hearted, social groups, where such nonsense is encouraged; I am aware my armies would never be allowed in a tournament.

 

I wish I could get the hang of the "search" function on this site, there was a good discussion on this a few years ago. Here are my rules of thumb:

 

1) The key to reasonable WYSIWYG is to make sure your opponent doesn't have to take up all his thinking time trying to figure out what your models actually represent. If squad A's flamer is meant to be a melta, but squad B's flamer is a plasma, that's not fair to him, but if all squads are the same, it's not so bad.

 

2) Your models should at least look like what they are: winged/jumppack guys should be in the air or with big thingys on their back. A friend has Ork commandoes(stealthy assasins); he used regular Ork Boyz, but they're holding blankets over their heads, and one is hiding in a post box. Very memorable!

 

3) With Line-Of-Sight being important, your models should be the right size. If you want a Chaos Daemon Prince, you can't use a normal Space Marine Captain model, as it would be too easy for him to hide behind a tree. Tanks should be the right proportions, etc: if the standard model has a gun on the front and a door on the back, it might upset the game if you modelled it the other way round.

 

4) Print out a clear, comprehensive army list. Not scrawled, screwed up fag packets, but a good, legible sheet, and allow your opponent to read it at any point before or during the game. EVERY option and upgrade should be clearly listed, to compensate for the lack of representation. (This is a good habit anyway)

 

Personally, I think that if you use regular marine models, but add spiky bits, paint them with 8 pointed stars etc and pay attention to wargear etc, even tournaments will accept your army as a chaos one. I too hate the uterus-pattern backpacks, and have never liked bunny ears on helmets.

 

It's up to you whether you use C:SM for thunderfire fun, or C:CSM to play with monsters!

[Zincite]

As far as I know any conversion is legal so long as:

 

It mainly uses games workshop parts, no one's gonna grudge you using a part or two of another company's parts so long as most of it's made up of GW things

 

Your opponent knows what it is. If you use a ork warboss as a techmarine, you need to tell your opponent ...

 

So, there you go. I've just said what everyone else has said a million times above this because I can't be bothered to read their replies. Don't you just love forums?

 

<_<

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

You could even take your marines legs off and attach a pogo stick, it doesn't affect any game rules so noone can complain. They're your models, do what you like with them.

 

Someone should do this. "Fear us, for we are the pogo marines, and we shall hunt you down with our legs of pogoness!(As long as there aren't any rocks, trees, or other large obstacles and you are running across a relatively flat plain.)!

[Commander Sasha]

You could even take your marines legs off and attach a pogo stick, it doesn't affect any game rules so noone can complain. They're your models, do what you like with them.

 

Someone should do this. "Fear us, for we are the pogo marines, and we shall hunt you down with our legs of pogoness!(As long as there aren't any rocks, trees, or other large obstacles and you are running across a relatively flat plain.)!

Rolling difficult terrain tests on roads because of drain gratings & cattle grids.

[Brother Delias]

Okay, so after painting with a friend today and discussing the conversions we've come to the conclusion that he won't play me even with house rules if I use some of the aforementioned conversions due to some test runs of my CSM against his Imperials. But while assembling the rest of my force Ive come across another question.

 

I really do not care for the huge bulky CSM Backpacks. Do I "have" to have Backpacks on my guys? I mean if I had Raptors then thats one thing. But without the backpacks, minus the heavy weapons crews, I prefer the look of them without the packs, as it gives them more of an infantry feel in my opinion. And the Khorne Berzerkers look even more out of place with them in my opinion. So tell me, Is it required to have that piece on? I know my Infantry need arms and legs, thats vital of course, but is the backpack a required piece on the model?

 

As someone else said, mechanically... there is no viable reason you need to put the backpacks on your force. Now, if you are a fluff nut like myself... The "backpacks" on power armor are actually the engine for said power armor, and is needed to work the servos and such of said power armor (not that an 8 foot tall, genetically altered supersoldier of the apocalypse actually needs an engine to make his fancy armor move!!).

[Redemption2994]

Before I ran out of glue, (note to self run to store and get more) I actually took the small bitz swords off the sprues and cut one in half and glued them to make a pair of scimitar looking weapons and glued them to the back of my Zerker Skull Champion and a chain and skull down his waist and in his hands he had 2 bolt pistols. I thought it looked kinda cool, which was what I had in mind when I asked the Backpack Question, Its kind of nice to have some unique model options. Though I can tell Im gonna have a hell of a set of units to paint if I go adding small bitz to each individual unit. And I only have 2 actual units and a lord lol. This is kind of a foretelling of what Im gonna be doing in the future as far as Expanding my army. Im still grasping the Mechanics of the game atm but Once i get my small army modeled and painted Ill prolly head down to the local comic shop on a Sunday to see if theres any players willing to try out a newbie.