techmarine Azuris Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 Everyone says i should take wings on hqs, NOT DP, if i take lord with zerkers or sorcerer in squad, can anyone explain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzo Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 Well, they let your HQ move 12" of course, but wings won't make you jump infantry, it just let's you move as if you were. So you can still ride in transports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverike_prime Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 I've heard this before, and frankly I think it's the crux of one of the biggest problems with the 4th edition Chaos Codex there is. Jump Packs make your lord Jump Infantry, Wings just allow him to move as if he were jump infantry, but they cost the same points and he can deep strike like jump infantry. Nice tactical option, but I'm sorry if wings allow you more options when compared to Jump Packs, then the Jump Pack options should be cheaper then the Wings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techmarine Azuris Posted December 29, 2010 Author Share Posted December 29, 2010 i think u missunderstood my question what is the point of wasting 20points either, if he never leaves his squad of zerkers (my LC khorne lord)? is there any point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda_ Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 i think u missunderstood my question what is the point of wasting 20points either, if he never leaves his squad of zerkers (my LC khorne lord)? is there any point? That is an entirely _different_ question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 was that not faqd to something that anything with wings counts as having a jump packs, and therefore may deepstrike etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 . Nice tactical option, but I'm sorry if wings allow you more options when compared to Jump Packs, then the Jump Pack options should be cheaper then the Wings! look at the SW dex. you cab buy a belt of russ [+4inv] fluffy sw option or a ss like everyone else and get +3inv . dex are full of stuff like that. i think u missunderstood my question what is the point of wasting 20points either, if he never leaves his squad of zerkers (my LC khorne lord)? is there any point? as this is being posted probably for a thousand time or so Ill just make a list. A ) you can have an IC in a rhino that can counter and intercept stuff and you can have all of this ina 35 point rhino . B ) people make errors they think that their unit is safe because its is above 12" double tap range , this is when the lord can charge them C ) sometimes stuff does break from shoting and is out of range of hth , or you want to take out two units , but mulit charge aint an option here . wings help again. D ) our IC work only in hth , wings make them faster which is always good . lets say turn two lose rhino , so you move 6"+d6' opponent forgets that the lord is there , because no one uses lords get withing 12"+ and you can charge him. E ) two winged lords can actualy kill something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techmarine Azuris Posted December 29, 2010 Author Share Posted December 29, 2010 thanks very much for that detailed response :) are u sayin i should invest in a second lord? and thx i have been enlightened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 no you shouldnt be playing lords at all , but If you take lords [and playing with a single one doesnt realy make sense] then wings are an auto include. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 again on the battleines with jeske... wow... To counterpoint, not that what jeske says is bad in the least, just formed on what he is used to. The use of certain equipment really pertains on how you intend to use the unit/IC/whatever. For my own right, the one lord I take that has wings is run with raptors, another one is ran on a bike with... bikers. My terminator lord is ran with terminators, and my tzeentchian sorcerer is run on his own on a disc of Tzeentch. Each has their own inherent use, and each generally serves the same primary function of being a fear effect unit. As to the DP, it has wings as well, generally it just kinda goes around causing meyhem for whatever it meets... Honestly I dont have a true use for the DP, it's undivided, and looks nice, and thats about it. I also have a 3 generic lords as well as 2 generic sorcerers, those when I have to use any of them are usually for leadership boosts and little else... Like any good army, it's the troops that do the real fighting for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Each has their own inherent use, what would be all nice and good , if raptors/bikes and termis[in non 3 man termicid set up] didnt suck . Yes we can talk how a slogging tzeench lord gives a unit of ..lets say havocks or oblits .. more dakka and some extra wounds against small weapon fire [well anything that doesnt ID at str 8] . A wingless chaos HQ just doesnt make much sense and what is more of a problem the points it costs cant realy be spent on something useful [we are making here a big assumption that taking a lord is "good" in the first place , something some people may disagree with] . We are not loyalist that can always squeez a cheap elite INQ with mystics or an attack bike [to play with wound allocation] . If a lord ever taken , then wings , as our HQs only work in hth anything that makes them get faster or easier in to hth is good. as DPs go , they are support units[as it is hard to break other units one squad against one] , tar pits and targets . sadly non of the other HQs we have [specialy without wings] can do the same [which is part of the whole "and they suck" thing] . the job of a DP [just like a job of an oblit ] is to die sooner or later . I realy cant remember many games [where I didnt have some abnormal rolling and destroyed my opponent armies turn 1-2] where either of those units was left alive at the end of the game. But I can understand that for people who see the HQ as something more then just a model , such a view maybe hard to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 and there is where youre personal experiencew with the game and mine differ greatly... I grant you, aside from sorcerers, all of our HQs do need to get into HTH to be useful, but saying that if they dont have wings, dont take them, is IMO a very bad thing to say. Like I said, they each have their uses, and employed them within those realms of use, bopth in my own games and in games I have sat opn the sidelines for, they work, rather well I might add. Take the equipment out of it, and there you are completely right... chaos got shafted the big one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I grant you, aside from sorcerers, all of our HQs do need to get into HTH to be useful, but saying that if they dont have wings, dont take them, is IMO a very bad thing to say.I am not quite sure I follow here, our HQs are primarily CC based as you say. Even Sorcs work best in melee (Warptime). So why would you waste 1-2 turns doing nothing with a 150+ point model, by NOT taking wings? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I grant you, aside from sorcerers, all of our HQs do need to get into HTH to be useful, but saying that if they dont have wings, dont take them, is IMO a very bad thing to say.I am not quite sure I follow here, our HQs are primarily CC based as you say. Even Sorcs work best in melee (Warptime). So why would you waste 1-2 turns doing nothing with a 150+ point model, by NOT taking wings? :D By taking a bike or Terminator armour? Sure, not the most effective method of using a Lord perhaps, but some people prefer the model/image/whatever of a Lord with something other than bat-wings growing out of his back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Warptime isnt the only ability sorcerers have?? Dont matter to me much, one of mine rides a disk of Tzeentch, and typically turns the enemy against itself via "creating" spawn. Why fight the enemy when they can do it for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Disclaimer: I may be influenced by recent (tournament) encounters with Tier 1 codices and the realization that we have so many sub par units in ours. By taking a bike or Terminator armour? Sure, not the most effective method of using a Lord perhaps, but some people prefer the model/image/whatever of a Lord with something other than bat-wings growing out of his back.The only reason I'd do that would be for fluff purposes, neither of the two options are any good compared to wings, in terms of efficiency. That assumes one is even fielding a Lord to begin with. Warptime isnt the only ability sorcerers have?? Dont matter to me much, one of mine rides a disk of Tzeentch, and typically turns the enemy against itself via "creating" spawn. Why fight the enemy when they can do it for you?True but it is the single most destructive power available to them. Also, because GoC is unreliable, gives up free KPs and it is not like it's the same as with a Tervigon, the unit(s) spawned is still crap. Again, I'd only take that power if it was a part of my warband's fluff. My 2 Kraks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bap2703 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I want to add something I recently "found" in the rulebook about the wing. If you read carefully how an IC leave a squad you will see that the IC leaves a unit only at the end of the movement of that unit. That means he cannot move faster than the slowest member of the unit he is in... even if he will not be in that unit anymore at the end of that unit's move! To my eyes that really decrease the effectiveness of putting wings on lords/sorcerers. Before I just used to leave a unit by doing a 12", assaulting soft and surprised targets... So now I tend to remove that magnetized wings and save the points... or like most people take a DP (winged of course :P) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 very true... @ Nihm: dont get me wrong, I do use warptime still. However, I absolutely love the other psychic powers available(hence why I have one of each sorcerer). As to the Terminator or biker lords? I disagree with you there, but then, that is just personal opinion and experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I want to add something I recently "found" in the rulebook about the wing.If you read carefully how an IC leave a squad you will see that the IC leaves a unit only at the end of the movement of that unit. That means he cannot move faster than the slowest member of the unit he is in... even if he will not be in that unit anymore at the end of that unit's move! To my eyes that really decrease the effectiveness of putting wings on lords/sorcerers. Before I just used to leave a unit by doing a 12", assaulting soft and surprised targets... So now I tend to remove that magnetized wings and save the points... or like most people take a DP (winged of course <_<) this was discussed in the OR forum, and I believe it was decided that if an IC wants to leave the unit they can do so at the speed of their own movement. Check the thread here I too agree that in the current codex lords are a sub par unit, I'm not saying that you shouldn't take them, but Daemon Prince's are generally much better bang for what you are paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Sub par against what exactly now that I think on it? I've seen it math hammered out, and while I dont like math hammering, that is statistics at their core. Now I cant say as I know anything about Eldar HQs, but any other army save Daemonhunters, a Chaos lord is a pretty solid HQ. Tyrants are still pretty solid but a Khorne lord with daemon weapon can still tear it apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Sub par against what exactly now that I think on it? I've seen it math hammered out, and while I dont like math hammering, that is statistics at their core. Now I cant say as I know anything about Eldar HQs, but any other army save Daemonhunters, a Chaos lord is a pretty solid HQ. Tyrants are still pretty solid but a Khorne lord with daemon weapon can still tear it apart. Tyrants don't have to worry about losing all their attacks when they roll a 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Sub par against what exactly now that I think on it? I've seen it math hammered out, and while I dont like math hammering, that is statistics at their core. Now I cant say as I know anything about Eldar HQs, but any other army save Daemonhunters, a Chaos lord is a pretty solid HQ. Tyrants are still pretty solid but a Khorne lord with daemon weapon can still tear it apart. Tyrants don't have to worry about losing all their attacks when they roll a 1. Indeed, check out the statistical chances for a Khorne Lord to roll a 1 (1/3), combine it with the fact that he can only hurt infantry (S4), then apply that in a Tournament game where you want complete control over a unit and not some random ability that can hurt yourself and your battleplans. I don't feel that the ability to completely wipe out an infantry unit (which is another bad thing if it happens in your turn) is outweighed by the drawbacks of losing a 140+ pt unit to a crapshoot. To give an example of a viable non-flying HQ that works well in an all comers list. From a generally viewed 'OK' and more recent (5th ed.) Codex: For 105 pts a Tyranid player can take a Tyranid Prime /w a Pair of Boneswords, Deathspitter and Regeneration. That is 105 points for a single model with the same stats as a Chaos Lord, except for WS5, BS4, T5, S5. He packs a 'Force Weapon' and he buffs any warriors he is joined to, he can regain lost wounds (just to include a random ability, except this one is actually beneficial), he has a ranged weapon that can hurt skimmers and is great against infantry, and most importantly, you can play mean and take the wound allocation game to the limit with him and a unit of Warriors. We, we have, an overpriced model with a bolter, or the overpriced Tzeencthian Daemon weapon, and a weapon that has a chance to kill him off. If you aren't giving your Lord wings (and aren't fielding a Biker Lord, which would most likely require that you field another crappy unit: bikers) then you are better off with a Sorceror Lord with Doombolt imho. I have played with Chaos Lords (both in singles and doubles) using all configurations (even a Tzeentch Lord with DW and jump pack) since 5th ed. came out and I still believe that they are a sub par choice compared to the other HQ choices available to us. They are also a sub par unit compared to the majority of HQs from the 5th ed. codices. But wings or not, if you do want to field one, slap some wings on it at least to make the most out of the model's intended role, melee. My 2 Kraks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 no you shouldnt be playing lords at all , but If you take lords [and playing with a single one doesnt realy make sense] then wings are an auto include. i really cant agree with this, despite the lower inv save than loyalist counterparts, chaos lords have a far greater damage output. a blissgiver for example is an amazing weapon.. but then any deamon weapon is worth its weight in gold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 i really cant agree with this, despite the lower inv save than loyalist counterparts, chaos lords have a far greater damage output.Unless said loyalist is of the BA or SW variety. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 .... yeah, a leadership check or lose all your attacks/attack each model in BTB friend or foe *to show the need to dominate your weapon* or taking a backlash wound if your side loses combat *the price of failure?* might have been better drawbacks- with more of a static benefit instead of the d6 system. As it is though they do fall behind compared to the sorcerer/daemon prince. The few times Ive seen them be effective since this latest codex came out was with a unit of slaaneshi raptors, and the lord didnt seem particularly better than a SM captain, just had a worse invulnerable save. Except John. Hes amazing, and his Tzeentchi Terminators are sometimes accompanied by a lord, but he doesnt take a demon weapon, just lightning claws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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