night lords speed paint

[slaine69]

hey you merry mother fff...humpers MERRY HUMPMAS! from swansea!! heres a night lords holiday speedpaint for ya!

enjoy! or don't

CUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[DeepDarkSecret]

You pretty much make me sick lol... Awesome job.

[Rogan]

To be honest, there's no way I could ever do something like that.

But I did notice, and that's what bothers me about this piece, that you used a lot of brushes (the chains) and "shortcuts" to do it the easy way.

For example, you didn't place the highlights manually, but made photoshop do it. Don't know how that works, but I assume it's something like this: "basic highlights, use some effects, apply -> finished". The same goes for the lightning...

My girlfriend uses gimp, and she does everything "by hand".

 

Well... but this is speedpainting, so I guess I can't call it a capital offense.

Good work so far.

But try it the hard way, too, will ya? ^^

[Peck]

Don't know how that works...

 

Clearly.

[rensor]

Very nice indeed.

 

As for "doing everything by hand because it is the hard way", there really is no reason for it.

And as far as I am concerned I didn't see slaine69 take any "shortcuts" on this piece.

Surly there must be tons of ways to do it.

If something gets the job done faster, why burden yourself with the extra time to get to the same result.

It's like painting a wall with a size 0 brush instead of using those big handled brushes designed for painting large surfaces.

Once you know how it works, and how you get the desired results, use whatever works for you, if it happens to be

a lot faster then something else but the results are the same ...

[MagicMan]

That was awesome watching it come together.

 

 

So how much time did it actually take?

[Brother Nihm]

You sir, are an inspiration.

I like the end result.

[Legio Draconis]

Amazing, please post the finished picture as it is so worth watching the 10 min video to see how it was created.

[hushrong]

Very nice piece of artwork!

[AngryJohnny]

@Rogan: Before you criticize Slaine69 and his work, maybe you should see the rest of his work....

 

Slaine69's Deviant Art Gallery

[DV8]

To be honest, there's no way I could ever do something like that.

But I did notice, and that's what bothers me about this piece, that you used a lot of brushes (the chains) and "shortcuts" to do it the easy way.

For example, you didn't place the highlights manually, but made photoshop do it. Don't know how that works, but I assume it's something like this: "basic highlights, use some effects, apply -> finished". The same goes for the lightning...

My girlfriend uses gimp, and she does everything "by hand".

 

Well... but this is speedpainting, so I guess I can't call it a capital offense.

Good work so far.

But try it the hard way, too, will ya? ^^

 

And to be honest (and quite frank), you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

For the sake of "explaining" what slain69 did though. He painted the entire piece in gray scale, establishing and blocking in the basic shapes, as well as working in his highlights and shadows. Once the artwork was refined to a point where he was happy with it, he began selecting sections and "colorizing" (for lack of a better word) it, laying in colors that tint/change the hue of whatever is selected. This is done because doing the image in gray scale first allows for better control and perception of contrast (a problem that some may run into were they to paint straight up with color).

 

There is no such thing as "making Photoshop do anything", and neither is there an "easy" or "hard" way. It all boils down to experience with the program, knowledge and familiarity with the tools, and understanding/knowledge/application of technique and personal preference. And in the end, all that matters is the result. It doesn't matter if it took him 10 minutes or 10 hours. If the end result looks good, you can't critique the methods used to get there.

 

 

DV8

[Rogan]

May be, folks. Sure. As I said before, I have no idea how to use a program like photoshop.

However, to my mind, this seems just like using washes to create depth. It's not "the real thing", you know?

I'm not sure how to put my (german) thoughts into (english) words, but I'll try it anyway.

If you're looking at someone's miniatures, a real noob, creating depth simply by applying a wash over the whole miniature or using autoshading stuff. What's your first thought? "Looks cool; if only I could paint like that"? Or rather: "Ok. So he used autoshade and slapped some paint on it."

This i pretty much what Slaine did in my opinion. The best example would be the lightning - drawing some lines and using the computer to make it glow.

I am not trying to p*** him off or to offend him in any way, as the result DOES look good - I just wanted to criticize his methods.

Nothing else.

 

Kind regards,

 

Rogan

 

P.S.: Some people don't seem to like rather harsh words - I often get the impression that even the worst stuff in forums like this one gets more attention and praise than it deserves. Sure, it's a matter of taste... But some miniatures are just horrible. The same goes for some artwork - not for this one, as I said.

I try not to be a hypocrite, that's all.

 

And that sounds really... nasty. Unfriendly. Impolite. Sorry for that.

[blackbabyjesus]

Rogan, I couldn't disagree more, should he stunt himself by not using Photoshop to it's full potential? What you saw as 'drawing a couple of lines' and making it glow was nothing of the sort and your suggestion that it was really only highlights your ignorance. Fantastic that your girlfriend paints everything straight off the palette in gimp, she COULD if she wanted to use a very similar toolset to Photoshop as most of the functions are there in gimp.

 

As for people using washes to achieve depth, they're actually a pretty good way of doing so quickly, and if the shadowed parts of the model are darker than the lighter parts, is that 'not the real thing'? Sure, everyone could wet blend the shading on every part of every model and do it the hard, slow, inefficient boring way.... Or they could use a wash?

 

I do agree that a lot of what is posted on these boards isn't of the highest quality. However, rather than railing at people about the quality of their work it would be better to support them and to suggest ways in which they could improve. If you really hate something that someone has posted, just don't reply, seeing someone post 'That's terrible, by 8 year old can do better' when something isn't great irritates me just as much as someone saying 'Awesome work! Enter Golden Daemon!' when something is equally mediocre.

 

A maxim by which I live, which perhaps would help you also: "The end justifies the means". If quickshade produces a good looking model, who cares that it took 20 seconds to achieve, it looks good!

[ancient god]

Rogan, that's pretty much how you utilise Photoshop. The art is in finding out how to use all these filters, overlays, brushes and so on. As you can see from Slaine's video, he used quite a lot of them - it's not like he pressed two buttons and the picture was done. The chain thing might have been one of the really easy fixes used, but the sketch itself, colouring, lighting, three-dimensional appearance and ambiance of the piece was deliberately chosen and fleshed out by Slaine.

 

I've been using PS on and off, in fact for closer to 12 years now and it's not an easy fix for anything artistic really. You saying it's "the easy way around" is like you telling people who use an airbrush that they're cheating. Yeah, it paints faster once you master it, but not everyone can and it's a lot of work to come to that stage. Plus you need to clean the damn thing for 20 min after each session but that's beside the point. :P

 

Guten Rutsch!

[Solid Zaku]

Let me ask you this, when you go on a road trip, do you admire Disneyland, or the highway you got to it on?

 

The path is never as important as the destination. If creating fine works like this was so easy, why doesn't everyone do it? The fact is that it does take skill and artistic talent to create works like this, it's simply not talents you are used to seeing. Be more open minded about the creation of art, and you'll be happier for it.

 

Let me put this in another perspective. Do you admire the tanks created by the 'Eavy Metal crew? Of course, we all do, that's more or less a moot point. What would you think of their tanks if you knew they used spray guns instead of brushing the paint on manually? Does that detract from the beauty of the finished tank?

[Rogan]

@ Solid Zaku:

 

That's not the point. Sure, you're right, Disneyland is more important than the highway, but wouldn't you prefer a real Donald over some guy in a costume? A real castle or some hollow illusion?

I do admit, that saying something isn't good because one could have more trouble while creating it is quite harsh and in some way even ignorant ("thanks" @ blackbabyjesus), but on the other hand I would feel like I had been cheating.

And, to my mind, the result is even more pleasing if it was hard to achieve. The more trouble I have with a miniature, the more I like it afterwards.

 

But whatever I say, I don't think I can bring my point across. Perhaps due to my inability to express myself, perhaps because I do not know enough about what I am trying to talk about.

Apologies to everyone I offended. ;-)

 

Just one more thing - @blackbabyjesus: it's not about telling everyone how much they suck. I think you got me wrong. It's about telling somebody what you like and dislike about their miniatures, and giving advice how they could improve their abilities. And of course, not telling somebody who used two or three colours for a miniature that he had a good chance to win a golden demon. Some people actually do that, and that's what I meant.

[AngryJohnny]

@Rogan: Offering "criticism" on something you don't know about is some what counter productive don't you think? It's one thing to offer a critique when you can offer a solution or advice on improving based on experience, but it's just spiteful to criticize just for the sake of criticizing; like you've done here. You said yourself you like the finished product and that you don't know what you talking about when it comes to Photoshop. So why not a simple, "Hey I like your piece" and leave it at that since you've got nothing tangible to offer? Your initial post as well as your subsequent posts are doing nothing more than saying "Hey, my girlfriend can do better" - which I've seen her work, and while it is a different style, and good in it's own rights, she most definitely could not do better than what Slaine69 has done here (based purely on her posted material) - it seems more to me that you're upset that she doesn't get the kind of praise for her work that Slaine69 gets for his.

 

Anyway... I think we've had enough of "discussing" Rogan's "point of view" - time to place to focus back were it should be, on Slaine69 and his speed paint.

 

@Slaine69: You're one of my favorite artist and I check your deviant art page regularly for updates. I love the Primarchs you've done w/Rogal Dorn being my personal favorite. I really like how this Knight Lord looks, very dark and menacing. It's really boggling how people can create something from nothing like you did. (Yes, I'm envious) Keep up the good work - I look forward to seeing what you come up with next.

[Rogan]

@ Angry Johnny: So... If I got that right... I posted in this topic because my girlfriend would get more attention from other users? Oo

That's interesting.

 

I merely said what I didn't like about the process. Where exactly is the problem? And why the heck do you keep accusing me of jealousy? Come on, this is ridiculous! The worst thing is that I can't even defend myself, lacking the vocabulary. -.-

Speaking of open-mindedness - are you so narrow-minded that you can't bear to hear any honest criticism? Especially since Slaine himself didn't say anything about my comments?

 

And of course, have you never heard anybody whose miniatures are hardly table top standard criticize someone with great paintjobs? Or, if you did, would you tell him "your models suck, thus you have no right to criticize this, so shut up"?

Because that's exactly what you are doing right now, aren't you?

If not, why not just a simple "I disagree"?

 

And besides, don't worry about this thread. He's got another one with exactly the same video. So why not waste one for discussions?

Link.

[Kalamadea]

As someone who has some experience with both traditional and digital painting, I'm amazed.

 

Just becuase it is digital does not mean there is less skill involved. Less time perhaps, less discarded canvases that turned out poorly perhaps, but certainly not less skill. More importantly than how the image was made is indeed the result, and for a reason that hasn't been stated yet. You can use technical tricks to change the artwork, to modify the colors, to change the shapes that are already drawn, but you can't tell the computer to "make it look better", there is no such button (I have looked for it). You, as the artist, need to tell the computer exactly what to do as well as how much of that thing to do. The computer does it, and if you, as the artist made the proper choice in size, shape, perspective and choice of color, then (and only then) do you get a better result. The computer cannot simply make an image better, it cannot decide what the best depth of shadow or highlight is. You can see the artist adjusting sliders and colors and even shapes & sizes of completed elements (the arm) many times throughout the video, he specifically chooses certain effects and colors and levels of contrast that he decides will make the best final product. A computer can't fake an artist's eye for what works, or know the final tone and mood that the artist desires his piece to show. In regards to traditional art, it's not even much differant. Someone who can draw amazingly life-like black and white art in charcoal and pencils cannot necessarily paint. They are very differant skillsets, and use very differant techniques and tools to achieve the desired results.

 

In addition, there is a large set of technical skills involved with knowing what brush and filter and effect to use and how to use it properly. More impressive to me than the final result or the obvious skill with which it was accomplished is the technical knowhow he shows in the video. There is a saying "the right tool for the right job", and photoshop is very much a toolbox, but knowing when and how to use all of those tools takes much dedication and practice in it's own right. You can have an automotive shop full of every tool you could ever need, but if you don't know how to use those tools then you can't fix a broken car. Even with miniatures, a wash does not make you a master painter, though many master painters will use washes extensively to achieve a desired result. Chastising him for using a chain brush in the background is akin to chastising a miniature painter for using static grass on a model's base, or a decal. It should be quite obvious that the artist is fully capable of drawing a chain, he simply uses a shortcut that achievs the same effect in less time.

 

Art is not "better" becuase one technique is used vs another. Art is "better" if it evokes better, larger, more meaningful emotional response from viewing it, it is "better" when the art properly conveys the sense and tone that the artist intended the piece to convey. Mission accomplished.

[TheMouth]

the head is to small.

[DarKHaZZ13]

"Art is not "better" becuase one technique is used vs another. Art is "better" if it evokes better, larger, more meaningful emotional response from viewing it, it is "better" when the art properly conveys the sense and tone that the artist intended the piece to convey. Mission accomplished. "

 

I tend to agree with parts of this sentence....however.

 

1. Don't assume that everyone has a meaningful emotional response from art.

Some people just don't, and more importantly some peices don't aim to do this.

You could always miss-understand the tone that the artist is trying to set.

I mean if you're adding the Night Lords pretext to the whole 'sense of the picture' then it is far too light...it should be much more muted, with a greater emphasis on internal darklight, rather than the extarnel light source which had been added to the image. Granted this creates a warmer more pleasing image....but for the pretext of the night lords a cold, sinister and overall less comfortable tone would have been more suitable.

 

More importantly

 

2. Art can be better dependant on the technique used. In a classical sense at least. For example. Cross hatching and blending are far more impressive, and make for better art as apposed to block colouring. Because it is more difficult and more technical.

 

It is a difficult subject to approach. Lets put it into an analogy so us miniture painters can more readily undertsand the idea.

 

If someone paints a model using multiple mixes, and multiple blended layers

and another just base coats a model and washes it and drybrushes it...

they preoduce a similar effect.

For this example, lets say identical

 

Q) Which is better? The end product being the same?

A) The blended layers.

 

Why?

Art to the masses is about the end product, therefore this question is not relevant.

 

But for the artist, it should be about the journey. If the journey is meaningless, with no sense of emotion and no effort involved then the art will convey this. It will be art for art sake. Not for enjoyment, nor enlightenment....but beacause someone can. If you put less effort in, you will simply care less about you minitures.

 

Great artists never painted their best work for the masses, never for commsison, never to show off.

Van Gough painted his famous sunflowers picture because he was embarresed that his house had little decoration. He saught no acknowledgment of his work, he just liked to paint. Most people at the time thought he was terrible. He didn't care.

 

 

Someone said that it is about having the right tool...

I say it is about 'doing the job you think is right,' regardless of the tools and regardless of others.

 

 

 

Back on topic of the picture...I like it...The actual image itself is well done, well proportioned

As previsouly stated though I think it could be colder and more sinister.

[slaine69]

fwaaaaah dudes this is an awesome discussion thanks for all the comments and so many different points of view coming across too it's really impressive and the cool thing is they're all right, though I do want to make something completely clear NO ONE should ever worry about disagreeing with my art style, picture process e.t.c I don't find it offensive in the slightest and I use any critique as a stepping stone for further learning and who better to offer that critique than you guys who have a great insight and understanding of the 40kverse and regularly blow me away with mini's that I couldn't paint if they were a couple of metres bigger.

 

So the reason I've taken so long to reply to this one is that I wanted to find the time to justify myself properly. I've been drawing for like ever but only in the last 5 years have I used digital art and, interestingly enough I was of the opinion that digital art was a total cop out, with the use of layer, filters and the tool I almost crusaded against, the UNDO action, man that really got my goat, what's more back in 2005 I started an Illustration course and was required to do most of my work digitally and thus my introduction and subsequent corruption began.

 

I started of using Painter x, which in my opinion is a great place to start as it emulates the mark making of traditional media in a really artist friendly setting, while I always found photoshop to be clinical and cold, which I suppose come from it's base function as photo editing software and as such meant for tampering rather than any meaningfully long periods of creative use. though after a while I found that painter was limiting in what I wanted to do and the rise in popularity of an already astronomically popular photoshop I found that if I wanted to take advantage of the hundreds of tips, tricks and how to you do's I'd have to switch programs. it was here after subscribing to imagine FX magazine and making a deviant art account so I could watch and learn from other peoples work that I realised what a powerful program photoshop is, it was also the time that I started to feel a lot more comfortable with creating pictures from scratch on the computer and not scanning in pre drawn pencil pics as I had done earlier. I came to the realisation very fast that I could do things easily on photoshop that I had no idea how to do traditionally (at this point I'd like to make it known that I'm a :) traditional painter!) ever since then I have used and maybe ethically abused every tool I know anything about in photoshop to get the closest transition from my head to paper or screen or whatever.

 

that said I haven't really addressed any of the concerns about the speed paint, so allow me to do that now.

 

Firstly this was a recording of the first time I used photoshop CS5 I had been using CS3 for about three years so I wanted to see what had changed (not a lot actually, but Rogan dude, if your missus though what I did was ethically wrong she would probably have a fit at some of the new features which can be found here

you might want to sit her down first!)so I chucked in pretty much everything I would use in the work flow of a much bigger picture to test them out.

 

Next is the fact that it is a speed painting, it was never intended to to take much over an hour to draw and it didn't, though that would have been a different story had I not used any of the filters, layer types, adjustment layers blah blah blah, it would have taken a lot longer to do and ultimately would have looked better and yes, it would have felt better to do. now, imagine if this was a commission that I had taken on and I was planning on spending a week on this guy instead of an hour, these tools are almost essential in streamlining the work flow process so I can get the best looking picture done in the most productive time possible and if I have to use an artistically questionable process to get it done then I feel no remorse (I am chaos aligned after all!)

 

custom brushes.....yeah I suppose its totally cheating, but I made them myself that's got to count for something right?..........right? ha seriously more than anything else I make the brushes to do specific tasks for certain picture like laurel leaves on an ultramarines armour or the blades of a chainsword, it really is the best way to get accurate and consistent multiples in designs, I would only ever use the chain brush in the sketching process of a 'big' picture.

 

would the end result be more gratifying if it was harder to achieve? I can really appreciate how it would seem so but while each picture has its process, there is also a process in improving as an artist with each picture I do on photoshop, every doodle I do on the side of my notebook and every sketch I draw on paper becoming part of it, they all have their merits and uses and one of photoshops most outstanding qualities is it's ease of use, it's designed that way and I make full sure I take advantage of it.

 

Anyways as one final part of the justification process I though I'd get another night lords speedy done in a different media.

 

ok I used 1 photoshop filter on this pic to darken the pencil, this is what it looked like without the filter.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/slaine69/001.jpg

using the you tube speedpaint pic as reference I sketched out the out lines of the pose and armour. I used a 5B pencil on tesco's cheap ass printing paper, also if you're gonna use this soft a pencil make sure you have a sharpener ready, you're gonna need it a lot

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/slaine69/002.jpg

I tend to work on the face first as it's a good place to start for lighting/shadow reference so you can refer to it and keep it consistent throughout.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/slaine69/003.jpg

carrying on from the last step continue filling in the details, while I'm doing this I have a folded A4 piece of paper to rest my hand on as softer pencils smudge easily and bugger up the details. unable to use a chain brush? there's a couple o' different methods for drawing them, I've drawn a lot of spawn pics, a lot of chains

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/slaine69/004.jpg

interestingly enough as a direct contrast to photoshop you work from light to dark using the papers' white as a highlight and a bit of foresight not to cover it, also for the most part try to keep the direction of the pencil consistent and remember square like objects will always have a dark side and rounded ones tend to have the highlight in the middle

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/slaine69/005.jpg

 

er I think thats about it if there's anything else please let me know and I will do my best to worm my way out of telling you that it really is cheating.

 

p.s sorry for the speedpaint double post I post a lot of the same stuff on heresy on-line and must've got my paddles bolluxed

[HunterEste]

@Rogan: Offering "criticism" on something you don't know about is some what counter productive don't you think? It's one thing to offer a critique when you can offer a solution or advice on improving based on experience, but it's just spiteful to criticize just for the sake of criticizing; like you've done here. You said yourself you like the finished product and that you don't know what you talking about when it comes to Photoshop. So why not a simple, "Hey I like your piece" and leave it at that since you've got nothing tangible to offer? Your initial post as well as your subsequent posts are doing nothing more than saying "Hey, my girlfriend can do better" - which I've seen her work, and while it is a different style, and good in it's own rights, she most definitely could not do better than what Slaine69 has done here (based purely on her posted material) - it seems more to me that you're upset that she doesn't get the kind of praise for her work that Slaine69 gets for his.

 

...

 

After reading through this thread, I hate to say it but I think you hit the nail on the head with this one <_<

[DarKHaZZ13]

Slaine69 you respond extreamly well to criticism.

 

I would like to point out that I hope that I did not make it seem as if I had judged you as a 'cheater'

I don't belive one can cheat, in the traditional sense of the word, when it comes to art (other than plagerism obviously)

And that was essentially my point....it is only cheating, if you feel like you are cheating yourself.

 

You justify your methods to us, when really there is no need, but you seem to want us understand how you work...to answer your critics as it were.

 

I feel you have done that quite well.

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

My only criticism is the lighting you used, it seems to me it obscured the colour of the armour a bit too much, but that's more personal preference really. Apart from that I really like it, as well as the rest of your stuff that I've seen, and your video was really educational as well, it really makes me feel as if I could give it a go myself, so cheers. Out of curiosity, did you use a tablet to draw or just a mouse?