DA vs SW vs GK

[twopounder]

I haven't been around these forums in a long time (4 years, to be precise). However, the posts about using "counts as" books for DA is more than a little alarming. I will admit that the DA were given the short end of the stick and a prototype codex. Despite that, I have still played the codex using ravenwing, deathwing, and a standard DA army with overwhelming success. Enough that the local GW's consider my Ravenwing and Deathwing to be cheesy and broken. This despite the new Blood Angel rules, to boot.

 

If you wish to play GK as DA, more power to you. From what I've seen, they will be a very strong list, and I wouldn't mind running a Grey Knight army simply for the rules and models. Bear in mind, however, that they are not Dark Angels and you are not playing Dark Angels. You are playing another army. I have thought long and hard on the issue of the Dark Angel codex, and would rather play it, despite its many weaknesses, just as I played it at the beginning of 3rd edition when Chaos and Eldar were by far superior to any other codex to date.

 

I'd just ask that before you abandon the codex, you try a better variety for your army list. Being a guard player myself, I can tell you that whirlwinds can hurt bad (ap 5 and ignore cover? ouch!) And my own ravenwing army could hammer my guard army by surprise and knock out the hellhounds and vanquishers before they can do any harm.

 

If you're on this forum, you find the DA fun to play or build. Why should this change just because of another codex? :huh: Play what interests you, even if it is not easy. The difficulty of your army will only bring you pride.

[breng77]

I think for some it comes down to playing at the highest level. I have often been competitive with my RW and DW for that matter. (won tournaments, win far more than I lose.) But when you go to national level events, against the best lists, DA really start to feel the hurt. Just from your comments I can tell that your local meta is not the highest in competitive builds. If I took a Whirlwind against the Guard armies I see at the more competitive events I would be lucky if it killed anything (it cannot hurt AV 12), and if the guard player was worried by it he would simply blow it off the table. As of RW VS guard, it can work if you get first turn, and destroy a good number of tanks, otherwise against the better lists I have seen, you are going to likely shot up due to low model count. I have stuck with DA for a long while, only recently did I jump to C:SM (only because my Local shop has outlawed Special characters so NO Ravenwing for me) Doing so has made me realize how large the gap really is. A codex space marine bike army is much more forgiving, and has better options in general. That is not to say, my RW list does not have its strengths, just that it has far more weaknesses than the similar build from the SM book.

[twopounder]

I think for some it comes down to playing at the highest level. I have often been competitive with my RW and DW for that matter. (won tournaments, win far more than I lose.) But when you go to national level events, against the best lists, DA really start to feel the hurt. Just from your comments I can tell that your local meta is not the highest in competitive builds. If I took a Whirlwind against the Guard armies I see at the more competitive events I would be lucky if it killed anything (it cannot hurt AV 12), and if the guard player was worried by it he would simply blow it off the table. As of RW VS guard, it can work if you get first turn, and destroy a good number of tanks, otherwise against the better lists I have seen, you are going to likely shot up due to low model count. I have stuck with DA for a long while, only recently did I jump to C:SM (only because my Local shop has outlawed Special characters so NO Ravenwing for me) Doing so has made me realize how large the gap really is. A codex space marine bike army is much more forgiving, and has better options in general. That is not to say, my RW list does not have its strengths, just that it has far more weaknesses than the similar build from the SM book.

 

Well, for C: SM - I love sternguard and would drop 3 squads in any DA army I made.

 

However, I do play the highest tier armies out there. One army is nothing but transports with lascannons (guard) with a few extra vanquishers for good measure. One is 3 land raiders, 30 berserkers, and a demon prince.

 

However, outflanking ravenwing plasma and melta burn through it pretty quick.

 

Granted, the low model count sucks, especially when generic marines can field better terminators with land raiders as transports for the same cost. But they can't field as many terminators with a flat 130 point char like we can.

 

Don't get me wrong, the DA codex desperately needs to be updated AND given our true nature back (stubborn, highly flexible deathwing/ravenwing, tactical expertise to beat any other chapter, etc). Also, I find nothing wrong with "counts as" lists. I ask only that DA players seriously consider the abilities of the codex before using alternate rules. There is something to be said for an army that can become completely fearless.

 

Just for SaG, my IG list:

 

Senior Officer

4 Melta Guns

 

Inquisitor

Power armor, psycannon

2 mystics

veteran

 

Sanctioned Psykers x10

 

Ratlings x10

 

Calidus Assassin

 

Veteran x10

3 plasma gun, lascannon

 

Veteran x10

3 plasma gun, lascannon

 

veteran x10

3 melta-guns

 

veteran x10

3 meltagun

 

(optional)

veteran x10

3 grenade launchers

 

veteran x10

3 grenade launchers

 

veteran x10

3 grenade launchers

 

veteran x10

3 grenade launchers

(end optional)

 

Hell Hound squadron

2 Bane Wolves or Hell Hounds

 

Vanquisher

Pask, Lascannon

 

(optional)

Vanquisher x2

 

Demolisher x2

 

Battle tank x3

(end optional)

 

Colossus x2

[breng77]

Oh certainly I would never say people should just jump ship for greener pastures, only that if you play DA of any kind you are at a large disadvantage against truly competitive builds.