The Rising Suns

[Apothete]

If you see i answered why i chose to do that...........i am still working on the fluff and have asked for ideas as far as the fluff

 

From time to time, I find it necessary to resurrect the words of a good man and a fellow Liberite:

The Liber is quality control, not the assembly line.

 

but the pissing match began when continued to admonish my use of non GW products, female troops, you called me arrogant and said "If you have no respect for nor a desire to adhere to the universe, why operate in it in the first place?"

 

What continuation do you refer to?

 

I said it was arrogant for you to claim that anyone who didn't agree with you didn't like to have fun, not that you, yourself, were arrogant. It's possible for someone to take a course of action without generally being an example of the characteristic they're displaying. Do you not agree that it would be arrogant for me to say, for example, that anyone who didn't like to waterski while doing handstands didn't like having a good time?

 

The comparison is more apt than you might immediately think.

 

I am far from feeling sorry for myself............I sit here continuing to write the fluff and make my chapter work.

 

Have fun with that.

 

I think I'll bow out of your thread in the interest of not causing further perceived antagonism. Best of luck to you.

[LakotaWolf]

please know that i definatly want and am looking for constructive criticism........if you look back in the post you will see brother tyler had some questions as far as me calling dreadnoughts Bushido..........and i answered why i believed it worked....and trust me if ididnt i wouldve quickly changed it..........also my description of the planet was reworded very well by ace debonair......and i have to admit the rewording will be what i will be using....thank you man

[NightrawenII]

1st:

as far as female troops..........i know we have our rule nazis and people who are so stuck on the lore who cant have a little fun or be imaginative........try having some fun sometime.......it really doesnt hurt....i promise

~

Isnt it a bit arrogant that because someone is trying to do there own thing to automatically shake the book at them and say you can only use GW products.........hell.........I am here because i love the the art and getting the chance to use my creativity

 

I have no issue taking constructive criticism..........but thats the thing............people are much happier flaming you or being the rule book police

~

If you see i answered why i chose to do that...........i am still working on the fluff and have asked for ideas as far as the fluff

 

People are drawn into this hobby for several reasons, be it modeling, painting(I hate painting), gaming, atmosphere etc. etc. And you can do whatever you want with you minies or fluff... I couldn't care less if you had female marines, your own Legion or whatever.

 

HOWEVER.

The general consesus of the Liber's purpose is to develop our creations, while adhering to the rules of the shared universe. (No, Ferrata! Not the whip! ;) )

 

You came here to ask for the advice(s) in the terms of background and others have given their opinions (or rather they didn't). And your response was what? Calling us fluff-nazis/unimaginative/arrogant. Say again?! :P

 

2nd, to emphasise what venerable-brother Apothete said:

 

I'll be as blunt as I can on this statement. It is not his or our job to work on your chapter, that's your job. The Liber is quality control, not the assembly line.

~Telveryon

 

If you want to continue in this manner and expect people help you or work instead of you, then you are sorely mistaken. People here enjoy working within the boundaries and laws of this universe and they certainly don't need someone, who is breaking these rules and calling it imaginative and fun. Because ya'know, that's the hypocrisy of the highest level...

 

Before I go, first and (probably) last advice:

*Reading is the gate into writing.*

 

Cheers, NightrawenII out.

[Brother Tyler]

All that said, no one is required to heed the advice of other members. You should take it into consideration and understand where it is coming from. If you don't want to take the advice, constructively explain why. It is then incumbent on the other members to leave that issue alone, agreeing to disagree, as it were.

 

Remember, this is a hobby about playing with little toy soldiers.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

While I don't think having a 'stacks on' is very conducive of encouraging Mr Wolf to continue his writing, I simply can't go past this without voicing my concern.

 

Isnt it a bit arrogant that because someone is trying to do there own thing to automatically shake the book at them and say you can only use GW products.........hell.........I am here because i love the the art and getting the chance to use my creativity

 

Apothete answered this very well but I'd like to add my own two cents as well.

 

There is no one book, one set of guidelines that totally defines what you can and can't do within the shared universe. Hell, you could write about a chapter of female marines if you had the knowledge and writing skill to pull it off well enough.

 

By the same token, just blowing through all the guidelines set up specifically to help you create something believable that lies within the shared universe that we all here strive to stay within the bounds of and then subsequently claim that it's merely a millstone around your neck and restricting you is a bit absurd.

 

 

Now that's not to say that I don't believe you have a workable theme and concept with this chapter, it simply needs refinement. Though rejecting someones advice simply because you don't like it isn't exactly on par with what is expected conduct in the Liber, it's more of a good way to quickly alienate yourself from the rest of the board.

 

please know that i definatly want and am looking for constructive criticism

 

Then don't get so personal or preachy. We are all exposing ourselves and our work for others to attack and tear to pieces here so we're all in the same boat, we all know how you feel. By the same token, certain behavior, while expected of newer arrivals is not good. I think I've harped on enough about this now though so I'll let it be.

 

Lastly, there is a difference between talking about what works within the bounds of 40k as a concept, and what works logically, knowing the reality of the 40k universe for what it is. The latter is what we deal with and that is what we call the 'shared universe', for obvious reasons.

 

I think I'm too tired for this and have rambled enough.

 

Just don't give up, that would be the worst thing you could do. If you think your idea is awesome, write it well and if everything is logical and justified then it will have some more weight to it.

[LakotaWolf]

Brother Tyler....Grey Hunter Ydalir...thank you for your well spoken and non combative responses

 

i may very well have started this by jumping the gun a little when i said "as far as female troops..........i know we have our rule nazis and people who are so stuck on the lore who cant have a little fun or be imaginative........try having some fun sometime.......it really doesnt hurt....i promise"...........it was defensive from the get go without really stating hey i didnt have a write up yet.......but i will get there and i will have a reason...........but i did go on to say that there were female samurais in feudal japan.as well as the Film The Last Samurai was based off the truth that a white man became a samurai.....i combined the two into one

 

to my defense even when i tried changing the subject off that and saying here i have worked on the gene-seed part how is this.....i get "The Liber is quality control, not the assembly line"...........i thought this is where we get feedback on our writing

 

I AM TRYING TO WRITE THIS..........and i want it to be posted with the other stories...........and i want it to be included on the map

 

When i was in High School........no one thought i would ever go to college..........when i was in college......i found out i had severe ADHD..............no one thought i would graduate..........when i graduated i went to a Master's Program..........i had a teacher tell me i shouldnt be there i wasnt smart enough........i have my Master's..........my point is all my years of education it was an uphill battle.........but i never gave up..........when i write and speak i have a hard time getting my thoughts out clear and concisely

[Venerable Brother Pelinore]

Going to admit, I don't particularly like the 'female Space Marine' concept. You could quite easily do the same thing with a male model, there's no need to go outside the established fluff on that...whether or not there were female samurai is irrelevant, as while that's your theme, but you don't have to stick 100% to it. You -do- need to keep it believably inside the 40k canon...that's my opinion anyway.

 

The concept is otherwise good, although a few of your japanese titles could be redone to make more sense. For example, it would make more sense for 'Kamikaze' (If you even used it, as it is generally connected to a suicide run) to be the name of your Assault Squads, as it translates to 'Wind of God.' Likewise, Bonsai makes little sense, as it roughly means 'a planting in a low-sided pot'....me thinks you watched a little too much Karate Kid. :lol:

[Ace Debonair]

I AM TRYING TO WRITE THIS..........and i want it to be posted with the other stories...........and i want it to be included on the map

 

When i was in High School........no one thought i would ever go to college..........when i was in college......i found out i had severe ADHD..............no one thought i would graduate..........when i graduated i went to a Master's Program..........i had a teacher tell me i shouldnt be there i wasnt smart enough........i have my Master's..........my point is all my years of education it was an uphill battle.........but i never gave up..........when i write and speak i have a hard time getting my thoughts out clear and concisely

 

Righto, let's put all the unpleasant stuff behind us and help you organize those thoughts. :lol:

 

The thing with the geneseed, to paraphrase my favourite NightrawenII quote: "Unknown geneseed is the mark of Laziness, the fifth Chaos God."

 

Basically put, even if your honest intention is to create a mystery around the geneseed of the chapter, a lot of us (most of us, actually) have seen this concept trotted out when people simply can't be bothered deciding on a geneseed.

 

If you're honestly stuck on one, I'd say go Ultramarine. They're the blank slate of Geneseeds, and have the potential for pretty much whatever you want from them.

 

I'll also share some advice with you that I got earlier this year. A good way to build up an IA is by starting with an outline - a few bullet points stating what you want from the chapter. And a good way to work out exactly that is to ask yourself some questions. Here's a couple to get you started.

 

Is your chapter an old one or fairly recent? (Mostly for settling on a founding, but also to help you determine what sort of enemies you're likely to face)

How would you describe the personality of the marines? (Don't use the words japan or japanese when answering this one :P )

Are there any factions within the Imperium that they get on well with or dislike? (Other chapters, the AdMech, the Guard, etc)

Whereabouts in the galaxy is your chapter's homeworld?

Do they favour any one style of combat over others (eg fast attacks with bikes or heavy use of close combat weapons) or do they practice a codex-style flexibile combat approach?

 

Try to answer each of them with just a sentence or two, and you'll be a step closer to defining your chapter's character and history. :)

[LakotaWolf]

Going to admit, I don't particularly like the 'female Space Marine' concept. You could quite easily do the same thing with a male model, there's no need to go outside the established fluff on that...whether or not there were female samurai is irrelevant, as while that's your theme, but you don't have to stick 100% to it. You -do- need to keep it believably inside the 40k canon...that's my opinion anyway.

 

The concept is otherwise good, although a few of your japanese titles could be redone to make more sense. For example, it would make more sense for 'Kamikaze' (If you even used it, as it is generally connected to a suicide run) to be the name of your Assault Squads, as it translates to 'Wind of God.' Likewise, Bonsai makes little sense, as it roughly means 'a planting in a low-sided pot'....me thinks you watched a little too much Karate Kid. :tu:

 

from wikipedia: Banzai charge (from the Japanese battle cry "banzai") was a term applied during World War II by the Allied forces to human wave attacks mounted by infantry forces of the Imperial Japanese Army. The name Gyokusai (Japanese: 玉砕, honorable suicide; literally "jade shards") was however used by the Naikaku Johōkyoku (Cabinet Information Bureau) and the media of the Imperial Japanese regime. These attacks were usually launched as a suicide attack to avoid surrender and dishonor or as a final attempt at maximizing the odds of success in the face of usually numerically superior Allied forces.

 

both Bonzai and Kamikaze are suicide attacks........though Bonzai attacks were foot soldiers versus Kamikaze were plane attacks..............chose the bike squad for Kamikaze and jet pack squad for Bonzai

[LakotaWolf]

if i am using the space wolf codex as my codex to base them off of does that mean i have to use the space wolf geneseed.......if not what options do i have............this army should be a close combat style army

 

i am however changing Oban to the name of my tank squadrons........and using Kyudo for my heavy weapons team

[Brother Tyler]

No, you don't need to use Space Wolf gene-seed (and many Liberites would find another reason to take umbrage if you did :tu: ).

[NightrawenII]

Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Traitor Legions gene-seed is off-limits for DIY.

 

And ahem, you are right about *banzai*, but VBP is right about *bonsai*.

You can hit someone in affect, but the effect may vary. :tu:

[LakotaWolf]

i am leaning torwards Vulkan's gene-seed...........but how do i get passed the onyx skin........not opposed to darkened skin as asians have a darker skin tone anyways.............but can the malenchrome gland be less malfunctioning due to there genetic makeup

 

i was reading the creation of a space marine by rick priestly.........no where does it say females cant be space marines.......now before this creates an arguement.........all the phases of creation if a female had those things done they would probably closely more resemble the wrestler Chyna

 

Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Traitor Legions gene-seed is off-limits for DIY.

 

And ahem, you are right about *banzai*, but VBP is right about *bonsai*.

You can hit someone in affect, but the effect may vary. :tu:

i knew there was that confusion of Bonsai and Bonzai

[Heru]

i am leaning torwards Vulkan's gene-seed...........but how do i get passed the onyx skin........not opposed to darkened skin as asians have a darker skin tone anyways.............but can the malenchrome gland be less malfunctioning due to there genetic makeup.

The Salamander's onyx skin is due to their geneseed reacting with radiation present in their own solar system. Salamander successor Chapters would likely not have the same physcial characteristics unless they come into contact with the same radiation or similar, and in the case of similar it may have vastly different effects (purple skin and green eyes for instance).

[LakotaWolf]

I AM TRYING TO WRITE THIS..........and i want it to be posted with the other stories...........and i want it to be included on the map

 

When i was in High School........no one thought i would ever go to college..........when i was in college......i found out i had severe ADHD..............no one thought i would graduate..........when i graduated i went to a Master's Program..........i had a teacher tell me i shouldnt be there i wasnt smart enough........i have my Master's..........my point is all my years of education it was an uphill battle.........but i never gave up..........when i write and speak i have a hard time getting my thoughts out clear and concisely

 

Righto, let's put all the unpleasant stuff behind us and help you organize those thoughts. :)

 

The thing with the geneseed, to paraphrase my favourite NightrawenII quote: "Unknown geneseed is the mark of Laziness, the fifth Chaos God."

 

Basically put, even if your honest intention is to create a mystery around the geneseed of the chapter, a lot of us (most of us, actually) have seen this concept trotted out when people simply can't be bothered deciding on a geneseed.

 

If you're honestly stuck on one, I'd say go Ultramarine. They're the blank slate of Geneseeds, and have the potential for pretty much whatever you want from them.

 

I'll also share some advice with you that I got earlier this year. A good way to build up an IA is by starting with an outline - a few bullet points stating what you want from the chapter. And a good way to work out exactly that is to ask yourself some questions. Here's a couple to get you started.

 

Is your chapter an old one or fairly recent? (Mostly for settling on a founding, but also to help you determine what sort of enemies you're likely to face)

How would you describe the personality of the marines? (Don't use the words japan or japanese when answering this one :P )

Are there any factions within the Imperium that they get on well with or dislike? (Other chapters, the AdMech, the Guard, etc)

Whereabouts in the galaxy is your chapter's homeworld?

Do they favour any one style of combat over others (eg fast attacks with bikes or heavy use of close combat weapons) or do they practice a codex-style flexibile combat approach?

 

Try to answer each of them with just a sentence or two, and you'll be a step closer to defining your chapter's character and history. :huh:

 

 

the chapter was part of the 26th founding......so a very young chapter

 

The Rising Suns follow a code called The Soul Of The Warrior. This code is said to emphasize virtues such as loyalty, honor, obedience, duty, filial piety, and self-sacrifice.

 

The Chapter's homeworld Shinto is located in the Segmentum Solar below Necromunda. (what would be a better description for this.....its really not below Necromunda but how would you describe where its at)

 

The Chapter's combat style is actually a combination of styles........Long Range attacks coupled by fast attacks and Close Combat

[Espada Azul]

I'm more of a passive observer at this point, but is there any way to make the references to Japanese culture and locales less... blatant? I'm all for Sergeants to be called Gunso and Brother-Captains to be called Taichou, for example, but a homeworld named Shinto? There is such a thing as overplaying a theme, after all.

 

That said, do continue.

[LakotaWolf]

i am not opposed to a change of the name of the planet........but the character names stay

[Espada Azul]

Well, it's not like Games Workshop doesn't itself have a history of using silly names. Heck at one point we had an Inquisitor by the name of Obi-Wan Sherlock Clousseau, and the Howling Griffons have a historical Chapter Master named Orlando Furioso (named after the epic of the same name by Ludovico Ariosto), and if you've read the Ciaphas Cain books there are countless more examples.

 

As mentioned though, there is such a thing as pushing a theme too far, something that GW is ALSO guilty of (read the Blood Angels codex, and you'll see Blood used everywhere), to the point where one can't take it seriously anymore. I understand that you're drawing a lot of inspiration from the personalities of the Sengoku period of Japanese history, but Takeda Shingen? Really? I guess I've been watching too much Sengoku Basara lately, but I can't look at this with a straight face. ;)

 

Does your Chapter recruit only members of a specific Clan? Does it recruit aspirants from multiple Clans? Does the rivalries between members of opposite clans carry over into the Chapter, and if so how do these manifest? If not, how does the Chapter suppress the continuation of such rivalries?

[Whitefireinferno]

Geeze buddy I would suggest reigning in the Asian everything bit a little every now and then is pretty acceptable But when it looks like your reading a wiki article on Asian History It is slightly Painful to read. Oh and as people have said Female Marines are not going to get you taken seriously and the reason it is a male only game is due to chromosomes The Primarchs were ALL male and the geneseeds were made from their DNA like half assed clones in a sense. If you really want to use your Infinity models in 40k the best Idea would be to have them Converted to some extent or well not use them (The Female one) However if you are dead set about you having her in your fluff a good place to start would be maybe not having her as a marine But as the Chapter masters head Serf.

 

This though is from somebody who does use Females in one of his Marine army My CSM force Led By Huron uses Male and Female Dark Eldar as Summoned lesser Daemons as part of his Pirate crew Oh and I only come down to the Liber Astartes to read things to give me Ideas/Inspire me to write a Short Story for the Librarium. Other than that yeah Im not a local of this forum so take what ever you like from my post.

[LakotaWolf]

how about Kyushu for the planet

 

Azumi being locale of the Fortress Monestary

 

i see what you mean by using Takeda Shingen........a little too much....nice to pay homage to him as far as the Takeda name but his first as well might be too much

 

seeing as how i am using the 26th founding Takeda Kenshin will be the founder

[LakotaWolf]

The Rising Suns

 

 

Orgins

The 26th Founding brought fourth a new Space Marine Chapter. The Rising Suns were the benefactor of Vulkan's Gene-Seed. The Adeptus Mechanicus took 20 young boys from the warrior society on Kyushu. This group would include the first Shogun (Commander) of this new chapter, Takeda Kenshin, his brothers Masamori and Hiro, and seventeen other youths all from the Ninth Shima (Island). Eighteen years later they were returned to Kyushu and there home in the Provincial Capital of Azumi. Here they would recruit and train from there newly built Fortress Monestary. Masamori would take on his new role as Yamabushi (Librarian). Hiro would become the Chapters first Sohei (Chaplain). The others would become squad leaders, Gokaden (Techmarine), as well as their first Bushido (dreadnought). Though normally Bushido contain the mortally wounded and maimed, Tanaka Ryuu requested the honor to help lead his chapter. Yoshida Katsuo, Gokaden, worked in the chapters forge to produce there implements of war. The chapter would be made up of 10 Companies of 100 Marines. Takeda Gozen, Kazoku (member of Daimyo or Headquarters) is given the role to lead the 2nd Company. Takeda Gozen, originally from Baal, aided Takeda Kenshin in a battle. Takeda's fleet were in the area of the Blood Angels home world when one of there outposts were attacked by a company of orks. The Rising Suns responded to aid there brothers in arms. Takeda became seperated from his squad he was leading and was pinned in coverfire by a squad of orks. A Brave young woman who lived locally in the area began shooting at the orks and created a crossfire where Takeda was able to get unpinned and kill the orks. Her family killed during the attack, she left her home world and married Takeda. Takeda who saw such great honor and strength in the woman, much like the warriors in his home of Kyushu, trained her in their ways. She went thru the transformation to become a Space Marine and was given the name Gozen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please take note on female marines

"To the best of my knowledge, the line “all Marines must be male” first appeared in an article in a very early White Dwarf and was reprinted in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium, circa 1989. Parts of that article were reprinted again in White Dwarf #249.

 

In countering this argument, let me point out that that line first appeared at a time when Space Marines were allowed the use of jetbikes, Harlequins could use Land Raiders, Genestealers had no connection to Tyranids, and a race called the Squats stumped about on the battlefields. Obviously, the game has changed significantly over the years, and Games Workshop has revised its material as it sees fit. GW could decide tomorrow to put out a line of female Space Marines and the phrase “all Marines must be male,” would go straight down the Memory Hole.

 

For now, however, the phrase stands. But honestly, I don’t care. You know why? Because the designers of the game have made it abundantly clear many, many times before, in White Dwarf and other venues, that I, you, Cousin Sid, whoever, has carte blanche to do what they want with the game. Warhammer 40K is an inherently creative product that allows, even encourages, participants to exercise their creativity to almost limitless extents. Players have ample opportunities to create new armies, new characters, new narratives, new worlds, new scenarios, etc., within the context of the rules or even—with their opponent’s consent—beyond the context of the rules. And the last time I checked, there was no “rule” about female Space Marines. Nope, can’t find it anywhere in the “Big Black Book…..” source http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarsgirls.html

 

 

LET'S PLEASE AGREE TO DISAGREE

[Whitefireinferno]

Uh the BA WOULD NOT give you somebody no ifs ands or buts Unless you are of their stock which you are not and the BA and successors are quite protective of their secret so there is a problem right there. other than that the main reason people are auto no on the women space marines are because Marines are no longer human most do not care for humans at all and when somebody mentions female space marines people will not take you seriously.

[LakotaWolf]

Homeworld

 

Kyushu is a planet mostly covered in water. There are Nine Shima (Islands). Each are ruled by Daimyo's (clans). The Shima have lush green grass and plants, rolling hills and mountains. The inhabitants are made up of four castes (farmers, artisans, merchants, and warriors). Due to the planet mostly being covered by water, 50% of the year, Kyushu is hit by tempestuous storms and rain. Otherwise the climate is very moderate.

[LakotaWolf]

Uh the BA WOULD NOT give you somebody no ifs ands or buts Unless you are of their stock which you are not and the BA and successors are quite protective of their secret so there is a problem right there. other than that the main reason people are auto no on the women space marines are because Marines are no longer human most do not care for humans at all and when somebody mentions female space marines people will not take you seriously.

 

seriously did i not say please just lets agree to disagree on the female marines...........like you said if she is a regular inhabitant of Baal what the hell would they even care what happened to her.......hey they are marines.....they are no longer human

[Espada Azul]

LakotaWolf: Watch your tone, or you'll find that help will not be forthcoming ANYWHERE on the forums. We are trying to help you, but if you keep on being stubborn (how Dornian) then it'll be the end of this thread... and this idea. Don't blame anyone if this thread gets melta'd.

 

And with respect to Brother Kilgore (who if you'll notice very VERY quickly is a member of this forum), his Female Marines get away with acceptance from the communities of the internet because his ideas actually seem sensible, if you creatively interpret some details of the ever-changing 'canon' of Games Workshop. If you squint hard enough. However the Fighting Tigers of Veda are the exception, NOT the rule when it comes to Female Marines, kind of like how Phillip Sibbering (who is an artist of GW, AND a member of the forums, AND the compiler of the 1000 Chapter Project) has his own interpretation of the Imperial Guard.

 

With the direction the current lore is going though, it's going to be VERY hard to justify female Astartes especially as more and more information is being revealed (directly or indirectly) through the Black Library novels (degrees of canon drift and all). You're basically fighting an uphill battle every step of the way with this one, and frankly for a lot of us here it's a lot of work for something that could easily be replaced with an idea that doesn't contradict Codex/BL sources.