Orks with redundant saves

[Vedicus]

Here's the deal, I play with a kid who runs orks "wrong" but has created a list that feels dang near unkillable when I play it. I've only come across it twice so far but I've gotten my face smashed in pretty badly both times. Here's what he brings:

 

Hq - Warboss [115]

Cybork Body

Attack Squig

Hevy armour

Power Klaw

Free Stikkbombs

 

Hq- Big Mek [130]

KFF

Heavy Armor

Bosspole

Cybork Body

Power Klaw

 

Elite- Lootas/mek [75]

 

Elite - 3 Nobz Bikes [245]

2 Power Klaws

Waaagh banner

Painboy

Cybork Bodys

 

Fast Attack - 3 Deffkoptas [135]

TL Rokkits

 

Troops - 10 Nobz [470]

Painboy

9 Heavy armor

7 Big choppas

Waaagh banner

9 Kombi weapons

Cybork Bodies

2 Power Klaws

 

Troops - 20 boyz [210]

Heavy armor

2 big shootas

 

Troops - 15 Boyz + Nob [120]

Big shoota

Free Shootas

Hard Boy Nob

Bosspole

　　

[1500]

 

As you can see, the big nob squad and the bikers have a 4+ armor save backed up by a 5+ invuln backed up by the 4+ from FNP (not against all weapons, but enough of them). The big mek attaches to the 20 boys and grants them a 5+ cover on top of their t-shirts. Now both times I've played him I've rolled exceptionally poorly which makes all the tactics in the world moot but I feel like the list I brought was pretty well tailored to neuter his greatest threats. Here's what I brought:

 

HQ:

Librarian (1) Null Zone, Avenger - 100

Chaplain (1) Jump Pack - 115

 

Troops:

Tactical Marines (10) Meltagun, Plasma Cannon, Combi-Melta Rhino - 225

Tactical Marines (10) Flamer, Plasma Cannon, Combi-Melta, Rhino - 220

Scouts (5) Sniper Rifles x4, Sgt. Telion, Razorback (Las/Plas) - 200

 

Elites:

Dreadnought (1) Assault Cannon, Extra Armor - 130

 

Heavy Support:

Devastators (10) Heavy Bolter x2, Plasma Cannon x2, Rhino - 285

 

Fast Attack:

Assault Marines (10) Flamer x2, Power Weapon - 225

 

I could go into a full battle report but just know that I got wrecked, here were my tactics:

Librarian rides with the scouts in their Razorback and attempts to get within 24” in order for Null Zone and Telion to kill the Painboy/Big Mek. Tactical and Devastator squads lay down heavy fire at range, dropping Plasma templates and heavy bolter shots on the Bikes and Deffcoptas and then the Nob Squad. Assault Marines w/Chaplain run right up the gut and target the shoota boyz, then the lootas. Finally, the Dreadnought looks to engage the larger Boyz squad with his cannon and then assault and tie them up.

 

None of this worked, I can blame only so much on the dice. Did I bring a crap list? Were my tactics poorly conceived? Do the dice gods just hate me?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

(ps. The worst die rolling of the night was this: got 6 PW and 16 regular hits when the assault marines w/chaplain assaulted the bikes. I didn't roll a single wound. Not a single die out of 22 landed 5 or higher. Ouch.)

[breng77]

As you can see, the big nob squad and the bikers have a 4+ armor save backed up by a 5+ invuln backed up by the 4+ from FNP (not against all weapons, but enough of them)

 

If I am reading this right he is taking his armor and Invul save against the same attack. If this is the case he is not playing it correctly.

[waaanial00]

Yeah this isnt fantasy, its EITHER Armour OR Invulnerable and only THEN do you get FNP.

 

Having played Fantasy I am glad that we currently dont get armour then Invulnerable and then FNP, it would make most games rather nasty without some serious changes.

[breng77]

Yeah, it would make BA TH/SS termies invincible to small arms fire.

 

Consider the bolter hits 2/3 of the time wounds 1/2 of the time, then take all those saves.2+(1/6) 3++(1/3) and 4+(1/2)

 

(2/3*1/2*1/6*1/3*1/2=2/216=1/108) It would take 108 Bolter shots to kill one Terminator (on average).

 

The only reason that that works in fantasy is that ward saves are fairly rare, fairly low (mostly 4+ or worse), and armor saves are generally lower (in most cases you cannot get better than a 4+ on an infantry model) effected by weapon strength, not AP (Strength 4 is a -1 to save, so a 4+ becomes a 5+)

[Mysticaria]

The only reason that that works in fantasy is that ward saves are fairly rare, fairly low (mostly 4+ or worse), and armor saves are generally lower (in most cases you cannot get better than a 4+ on an infantry model) effected by weapon strength, not AP (Strength 4 is a -1 to save, so a 4+ becomes a 5+)

And fantasy doesn't have Feel No Pain.

 

-Myst

[breng77]

No but they do have regeneration with is pretty much the same thing (though it is harder to negate), however, very few units have this ability, whereas just about everything seems to have FNP these days or the ability to get it. I feel like FNP sed to be pretty rare, no the last 3 codices have been given access to it in some way.

[Vedicus]

I must've worded that poorly, by redundant I meant that he's always got some kind of save to fall back on: If I bring AP3 he's still got his 5+ invuln and then FNP, if I bring AP1, 2, or power weapons, he's STILL got the invuln or maybe a cover save if it's the Big Mek squad.

 

He's not rolling multiple saves, he's just always got one and it makes his deathstar units nigh unkillable.

[breng77]

If that is the case I do feel that part of it is your list.

 

The assault marines really lend nothing to this matchup unless they can assault an already weakened squad. Missile launchers would really help in this matchup. Nobz hate massed ML fire. Sure they might get cover or a 5+ invul, but as S 8 doubles their toughness, it denies them FNP, and instant kills them should they fail what ever save they might be getting. Melta guns are also decent at this, but if you are in range you are in charge range which is a problem.

 

You scouts also cannot take a razorback they don't have an option for a dedicated transport.

 

Not know what models you have your list would be better overall in this fight set up as follows.

 

Libby (your set up is fine)

 

10 man Tactical Squad, Melta gun, Missile launcher Razorback (Las Plas)

10 man Tactical Squad, Melta gun, Missile launcher Razorback (Las Plas)

5 Scouts (Telion, 3 snipers, Missile Launcher)

 

Heavy Support

5 Devastators (4 ML) Razorback (Las Plas)

5 Devastators (4 ML) Razorback (Las Plas)

 

Iron Clad Dread (with Heavy Flamer, and 2 HK missiles)

 

5 Assault Marines (2 Flamers, Power fist)

 

Now this might not be possible with the models you have but it has a number of advantages over your current list.

 

Advantage 1: You have 20 S 8 or Higher shots, which means no FNP and instant Killed Nobz should a save get failed.

 

Advantage 2: Missile Launchers (11 of them) can shoot small blast templates, which are decent at dealing with hordes of Boyz.

 

Advantage 3: An Iron Clad Dread is much better for a short range dread, that wants to tarpit (a Power Klaw can only penetrate on the roll of a 6 thanks to AV 13) He also has a Heavy Flamer so he can kill boyz on his way in.

 

Advantage 4: Telion Can try to Snipe, but if he is out of range, he can now use his BS of 6 to fire a Missile shot. He also provides Stealth to his squad so they can sit in cover for a 3+ cover save.

 

Advantage 5: The Las Plas Razorbacks, also can put out 8 plasma shots at close range, which ignore FNP.

 

The assault marines are in there to stay behind your lines and counter charge weakend units, or speed bump other units.

 

Remember that your opponent here is on foot, so take out, the bikers(which are fast, but if you kill one they need to pass morale), and Lootaz (which have range) first, then Focus fire the Deathstar Nob squad on Turn 2. Leave the 2 Boyz Squads for last (especially the one without a Nob, as your Dread can eat that squad with no worries.)

[Captain Idaho]

Honour Guard, Honour Guard, Honour Guard...!

 

Seriously, they were built for eating through mobz of 20 boyz. They handily cost the same as that Assault squad.

 

Practically speaking, they also blat the saves of all the Boyz, and only Cybork bodies get a save. So hit the Nobz with Typhoons and other instant killing weapons whilst your assault chew through the Ork mobz.

[Vedicus]

@Breng: I like it, I like it a lot. I was going back and forth on the ML vs PC options, guess I made the wrong choice. I assume you mean for the two tac squads to CS down and have the ML hang back while the melta in the razorback moves up. Also, can the Devs be deployed outside of their transports at the start of the game so that I don't have to waste a turn disembarking them?

 

@Idaho: You and your Honor Guard B)

Believe it or not I had that in a previous list too but decided against it because... um... I don't know why. Maybe Gork and Mork got into my head or something and made me make all the wrong choices. I've got a Command Squad in the mail right now, I'll try proxying them thusly and see if I can work it into Breng's ideas.

 

Thanks so much for your help guys. I love this forum.

[breng77]

@Breng: I like it, I like it a lot. I was going back and forth on the ML vs PC options, guess I made the wrong choice. I assume you mean for the two tac squads to CS down and have the ML hang back while the melta in the razorback moves up. Also, can the Devs be deployed outside of their transports at the start of the game so that I don't have to waste a turn disembarking them?

 

Exactly, except for Dawn of War where the Devs will move on in their RBs and then Disembark (hopefully in cover). It is not that Plasma Cannons are bad, but they are less versitile, and don't cause instant death to T4 models.

[Captain Idaho]

@Idaho: You and your Honor Guard :lol:

Believe it or not I had that in a previous list too but decided against it because... um... I don't know why. Maybe Gork and Mork got into my head or something and made me make all the wrong choices. I've got a Command Squad in the mail right now, I'll try proxying them thusly and see if I can work it into Breng's ideas.

 

Thanks so much for your help guys. I love this forum.

 

Yeah it's an unhealthy obsession. I'm taking them to a few tournaments next year but after that I might try something else for a while. Maybe.

 

Yeah I agree with the idea to have missile launchers instead of plasma cannon. Whilst awesome, an army only needs a few as they take up valuable heavy weapon slots.

[captain sox]

Here are my thoughts.

 

I don't like having multiple 5 man troop choices vs a horde army... but that's me personally. Here's what I'd run:

 

HQ:

 

Kantor (AP4 ST4 Assault 4 Storm bolter), plus the Orbital Bombardment is nice. Add inspiring presence to get +1 attack.

5 Man Honour Guard with Champion with Relic Blade

Razorback with TL Assault Cannon for these folks

 

Troops:

 

10 Man Tac Squad with ML and Flamer, PF

10 Man Tac Squad with Plasma Cannon and Flamer, PF

10 Man Tac Squad with HB, Flamer and PF

 

Fast Attack:

 

Land Speeder Typhoon

Land Speeder Typhoon

 

Heavy Support:

 

3 x Whilwind with a HK missile each.

 

I haven't done the exact points cost, put it should be around 1500.

 

Templates are the bane of horde armies. Whirlwinds are great vs Orks.

 

If you do want to use Telion and Snipers, use 10 with a ML.

 

the 2 Typhoons can deal a lot of hurt, wtih Missiles and Heavy Bolters. 4 Small templates and 6 HB shots is nice!

 

Don't be afraid to bully his units... I like to sit back and shoot, shoot, shoot at orks. I don't generally like to move towards them... the further I am, the better.

 

You may also exchange the Honour Guard for some Sternguard... they have some nice Special Ammo that is great too!!

 

Good luck, and have fun!

[breng77]

Templates are the bane of horde armies

 

This is acctually only true against inexperienced players. A good ork player, will spread out to minimize the damage. (If orks are at 2" Coherencey a small blast will be lucky to deal 2 or 3 hits, and one or 2 wounds. I also was looking to make a list that was good against orks but also good against other armies. I frown on list tayloring as it, usually does not pay off (and costs a lot of money.)

 

As for 5 man squads, I prefer these against hordes, as long as you can avoid getting multi assaulted it actually makes you more durable. (haivng 20 boyz kill 5 marines, is better than having them kill 10.) In addition if you have a 10 man squad the odds of you staying locked in combat on your turn is much higher, which is death against orks, you need to be able to shoot them as much as possible.

[glsn]

For the most recent list put up, I'd drop a tactical squad and go for a sternguard squad. If you're using kantor they are scoring and with the various types of ammo the can usually deal with redundant saves. They can also take 2 heavy weapons instead of 1 and have 2 attacks base in close combat.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

A Thunderfire Cannon will chew through a squad of Boyz in no time flat; even with all those extra saves that're giving you trouble, shooting it into the 15- or 20-man mobs is going to generate a massive number of wounds. If firing at the 20-man mob with a cover save, use the Airburst rounds. They deny cover saves and they're still AP6, so joe Boyz will get NO save against them. Plus, you can use the Sub-T rounds on the bikers. One hit (not a Wound, a hit) and that squad cannot turboboost and so lose access to their big cover save. Do that, then hammer them with the aforementioned missile launchers. With only three models, you can wipe the squad in one decent shooting phase.

[spartan249]

@Ferrum

Bikers get 4+ cover saves at all times. No dice there.

 

My personal opinion is that you're bringing too many marines and too few things that actually kill orks. I play against Orks constantly, and at 1500 pts I run something that looks like this:

 

1500 pts "Casual Game Time"

HQ

Lysander: 200 pts

Troops

Scout Squad: 5 scouts, Rifles, Mlauncher - 85 pts

Scout Squad: 5 scouts, Rifles, Mlauncher - 85 pts

Elites

Assault Terminator Squad: 5 TH/SS - 200 pts

Land Raider: Mmelta, EA - 275 pts

Heavy Support

Land Raider: EA - 265 pts

Thunderfire Cannon: 100 pts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder: Mmelta, TML - 100 pts

Land Speeder: Mmelta, TML - 100 pts

Land Speeder: TML - 90 pts

 

Granted, my normal opponent plays 3 trukks and 2 battle wagons in his list, but the stuff in here still slaughters Nobz, thanks to S8+ and mobility. About the only thing your opponent should be able to catch in assault should be one squad of scouts, who draw the short stick and have to hang out on foot, and the Thunderfire cannon, which, if you kill the lootas, has already done it's job. The rest of your army, on the other hand, is constantly moving and constantly shooting, first removing the threats to your speeders, then killing the nobs. After that, it's bullying the boyz and using the speeders/Lysanderbomb to contest any objectives he may have. Barring horrific rolling, this game is most likely a clear loss for the ork list posted above.

[breng77]

Barring horrific rolling, this game is most likely a clear loss for the ork list posted above.

 

or an objective mission as you only have 2 troop choices.

[spartan249]

I don't know... football is the easiest mission for me to play since the ork player has to actually leave one of the boy squads behind to claim the home objective, reducing the number of targets I have to engage, which means easier killing. And they're holding it for naught, since that objective's going to get contested by any one of the three speeders in the list anyway.

 

Hit the lootas, and your speeders are essentially immortal. They'll never die if you keep your distance, so float around, launch some missiles, then contest objectives on turn 5. Two troops is not a hindrance in this match-up, especially given how few lootas the ork player's taking.

 

The Mission does not care how many objectives you claim. It only cares that you have 1 more than your opponent.

[breng77]

Except against a smart player your speeder will never get within 3" to contest (an ork mob can cover more then 3" around the objective. And should he kill your 2 scout squads you cannot claim any objectives.

[Brother Captain Ed]

@Ferrum

Bikers get 4+ cover saves at all times. No dice there.

 

Umm...where did you get this?

[spartan249]

Well, that's where the LR comes into play. Tank shock exists for a good reason, and Ork boyz have nothing but the nob to stop it, and even then, the nob's most likely going to go splat trying. And even if they do deal with the LR in their subsequent turn (You are going second if you had the choice), they have to deal with that other raider with the scouts in it, not to mention the Lysanderbomb that is still sitting in there (unless they did the smart thing and surrounded the LR with boyz, and that only applies when the LR's wrecked, not exploded).

 

@Ferrum

Bikers get 4+ cover saves at all times. No dice there.

 

Umm...where did you get this?

Pg. 46 of the Ork codex. First special rule on Warbikes. Don't you wish SM bikers go this too? D:

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Interesting that dust clouds provide 4+ and grass, which is tougher, is a 5+. You'd think marines would get it for a. Sheer awesomeness, or b. The fact that our Chaplain bikes have smoke launchers. Or at least that one in the 4th Ed. codex did.

 

Against that list, I agree with those above. Bring devs, make the orks walk, shoot them while they're walking, and chop them up with honor guard when they get there.

[Brother Valerius]

It's probably because cover saves represent the chance for a shot to go astray due to lack of vision, and a cloud of dust obscures vision more than grass.

[waaanial00]

Just because noone has mentioned this, you cannot do the following

 

Scouts (5) Sniper Rifles x4, Sgt. Telion, Razorback (Las/Plas) - 200

 

Scouts cannot take any form of dedicated transport, you can put them in a Storm but this comes out of your Fast Attack bill and is not dedicated.

 

Whilst the Nob bikers will still get their 4+ cover save, denying them turbo boost mobility is better than denying them their cover save. Nob bikers really need to get close in order to wreck you so slowing them down and forcing them to take dangerous terrain tests in their movement phase is a good idea.

 

Stay away from 5 man scout squads, even with Telion they are below useless. They are only used by people who dont want to take real troops and are just going for minimum points in order to get more killing stuff. Even with cloaks they are not survivable enough against a smart player.

 

Like others I would suggest you drop the Devs and Assault Marines. Get some Typhoons instead of the Devastators and get some better CC muscle than the Assault marines. Hell even Vangaurd with a light dusting of upgrades would be a better use of points. The only decent thing about the assault marines is that they can take dual flamers and have the mobility to make them count. In combat they are rubbish, even with the Chaplain.

 

By the way you only need to beat the Nob bikers once and they will fold, with a LD of 7 they arent going to be sticking around much!