Vlka Fenryka - etymology

[Midgard]

Moderators, feel free to move this if you believe it is inappropriate for general Heresy sub-forum.

 

One thing that I was wondering after reading through "Prospero Burns" was the etymological origin of Vlka Fenryka, especially the Vlka part. I am pretty sure that it is derived from Volk, but this is where the quandary is - which "Volk" is it derived from?

 

In Russian (which I speak), "Volk" (plural "Volki") means Wolf. Therefore, if we take the Russian meaning of Volk, "Vlka Fenryka" simply means "Wolves of Fenris" (technically it would be Volki Fenrisa, but I presume the translation is intentionally garbled, if that was the origin of the term). But...

 

I understand that Volk is also a term in German (which I do not speak), roughly translated as "folk" or "people". I would assume that many Scandinavian languages might have a similar term, with the meaning closer to the German one than to Russian one due to languages being closer. In this translation, "Vlka Fenryka" could be translated as a variation on "Folk of Fernis", or "Fenrisians".

 

Both translations would make sense, although, seeing that I do not speak German or any Scandinavian language, I could be wrong about the relation of "Volk" (Germanic) and "Vlka". Any thoughts on this? Anyone who speaks German or one of Scandinavian languages and could clarify on whether or not I'm on the right track?

[Selerox]

I'd say that the word could very well mean both things at once, given what we know about the people of Fenris...

[Legatus]

As far as I can see, from a quick online dictionary search, in swedish, norwegian and danish the word for "people" is "folk", which is close to the german "volk". None of those dictionaries had a result for "vlka". One of the first results I got was the Czech word "vlk", of which "vlka" is a genitive form. "Vlk" means "Wolf".

 

So to me it seems like it is supposed to be "Wolves of Fenris", thouch I find it a bit odd that they would not use skandinavian language and instead czech or russian. Does this word come from the Dan Abnett book or from the McNeill one? IIRC Abnett was not too fond of the direct and blatant links of the Space Wolves to vikings, so perhaps he deliberately did not go with scandinavian language.

[CommissarStone]

When you look at the similarities between the Nordic languages and the Slavic languages, I suspect the use of "Vlka" was intended, as has been done with other terms throughout the HH series, to illustrate linguistic drift over huge spans of time. Couple that with the multiple layers of meaning - intended or accidental - as well as artistic license, and I think the answers are self-evident.

[Warsmith Aznable]

It might not be so odd for it to be Russian, since the book uses the historical scenario of Ahad ibn Fadlan, an Arab trader who journeyed to what is now Russia and gave an historical account of his time among the Rus. Names and their allusions are a big part of this story, and the protagonist gives himself an Arab name when petitioning to be among the Rus as a direct reference to the historical ibn Fadlan, making the connection between the Rus ("vikings" from Russia) and Leman Russ, Primarch of the "Space Vikings" themed Astartes chapter.

[Brother Kirus]

Do not forget that there is a historical controversy about the origins of Russians. There is strong evidence that original “Russians” were Vikings that first settled in Kiev and then expended further to the East. It would make cense to chose some Russian words for a book about "Space Vikings".

[Marshal Rohr]

The book mentions Ibn Rustah, not Ibn Fadlan. Fadlan was the basis for 13th Warrior.

[The Normish]

What about vlka as a sort of corruption of velka, which means "big" in Czech?

[Gv0zD]

Do not forget that there is a historical controversy about the origins of Russians. There is strong evidence that original “Russians” were Vikings that first settled in Kiev and then expended further to the East. It would make cense to chose some Russian words for a book about "Space Vikings".

 

Guys, please, Russians are not vikings in any meaning. Yes, the first ruling dynasty descended from the vikings (Rurik and his retinue). But they were not the conquerors of the Slavic people, they did not bring their culture and traditions to Russia. Kiev was settled long before the Varagians intruded. And no Varagians expended East. Just if you make such statements, please, read some historic books first.

 

 

Here's the quote to wikipedia on how Rurik obatined the control over Russia:

 

There is a debate over how Rurik came to control Ladoga and Novgorod. The only information about him is contained in the 12th-century Russian Primary Chronicle, which states that Chuds, Slovene (one of the tribes of eastern Slavs), Merias, Veses and Krivichs (also a slavic tribe) "...drove the Varangians back beyond the sea, refused to pay them tribute, and set out to govern themselves". Afterwards the tribes started fighting each other and decided to invite Rurik to reestablish order.

 

Also, here's the link to the thread at B&C, where I already stated the same thing.

 

Anyway, Russians descended from the Slavic tribes. They still retain the Slavic traditions, and if you ask any Russian about who he is - he'll say Russians are slavs.

 

Following the logic proposed by Brother Kirus since the Moors invaded Spain - Spanish people are Moors, and not Spaniards.

 

 

 

 

And by the way, Latvian word for "wolf" is "vilks", Lithuanian is "vilkas", and IMHO any Baltic country fits SW theme much better than Russia.

[Marshal Rohr]

Do not forget that there is a historical controversy about the origins of Russians. There is strong evidence that original “Russians” were Vikings that first settled in Kiev and then expended further to the East. It would make cense to chose some Russian words for a book about "Space Vikings".

 

Guys, please, Russians are not vikings in any meaning. Yes, the first ruling dynasty descended from the vikings (Rurik and his retinue). But they were not the conquerors of the Slavic people, they did not bring their culture and traditions to Russia. Kiev was settled long before the Varagians intruded. And no Varagians expended East. Just if you make such statements, please, read some historic books first.

 

 

Here's the quote to wikipedia on how Rurik obatined the control over Russia:

 

There is a debate over how Rurik came to control Ladoga and Novgorod. The only information about him is contained in the 12th-century Russian Primary Chronicle, which states that Chuds, Slovene (one of the tribes of eastern Slavs), Merias, Veses and Krivichs (also a slavic tribe) "...drove the Varangians back beyond the sea, refused to pay them tribute, and set out to govern themselves". Afterwards the tribes started fighting each other and decided to invite Rurik to reestablish order.

 

Also, here's the link to the thread at B&C, where I already stated the same thing.

 

Anyway, Russians descended from the Slavic tribes. They still retain the Slavic traditions, and if you ask any Russian about who he is - he'll say Russians are slavs.

 

Following the logic proposed by Brother Kirus since the Moors invaded Spain - Spanish people are Moors, and not Spaniards.

 

 

 

 

And by the way, Latvian word for "wolf" is "vilks", Lithuanian is "vilkas", and IMHO any Baltic country fits SW theme much better than Russia.

 

I am detecting faint traces of ethnic pride in this sector. ;)

[Gv0zD]

I am detecting faint traces of ethnic pride in this sector. :P

 

;) Not at all. Just want to keep historical credibility.

 

Look at SW - they drink beer and keep wild wolves. Russians drink vodka and keep bears. :P

 

Not to mention the difference in combat styles and armament of the Vikings and Slavs/Russians. Those are rally two different cultures bearing almost no similarities.

[Marshal Rohr]

True, I never bought into the Wolves=Russian thing now.

 

 

I might be Russian. I love Vodka. I went bear hunting. What else do I need?

[Brother Kirus]

Following the logic proposed by Brother Kirus since the Moors invaded Spain - Spanish people are Moors, and not Spaniards

 

That was not the logic that I proposed.

 

 

Guys, please, Russians are not vikings in any meaning. Yes, the first ruling dynasty descended from the vikings (Rurik and his retinue). But they were not the conquerors of the Slavic people, they did not bring their culture and traditions to Russia. Kiev was settled long before the Varagians intruded. And no Varagians expended East. Just if you make such statements, please, read some historic books first.

 

I was not talking about ruling dynasty. I was talking about people and culture. I read enough historic books (so please keep your advice to yourself) and that is why I expressed this opinion. If you noticed I specifically stated that this subject is very controversial. By no means did I intend to imply that Russians are Vikings or that they were conquered by them. But I do believe that Russians were heavily influenced by both Viking’s gene pool and culture.

 

Not to mention the difference in combat styles and armament of the Vikings and Slavs/Russians. Those are rally two different cultures bearing almost no similarities.

 

Have to disagree here. There are a lot of similarities in combat style and in weaponr...

 

This will be my last post on this topic. I have no desire to argue.

 

Happy New Year!

[Marshal Rohr]

Russia is huge, and contains more ethnic groups/cultures than I care to pretend to know about. Im sure 'Viking' is one of the many ingredients in the gene-soup that makes up modern day Russians.

[Pulse]

I went bear hunting. What else do I need?

You need to stop hunting bears thats what, i already told you that! :D

[Gv0zD]

@ Brother Kirus

The Russians were influenced by the vikings, but not heavily. The Mongols invaded Russia and were in control for almost two centuries. It is said that in every second Russian you'll find a drop of mongol blood. That's the heavy influence. Hell, why the White Scars are not compared to Russians?

You may not argue, but if you're so aware of Russian history, please, recommend a few books to enlighten my ignorance.

 

P.S. Happy new year everyone!

[Kjartan]

I know that this post has been inactive for a long while now, but I stumbled on it today and wanted to put in my thoughts.

 

What if it was VI-ka where the 'ka' is the Fenrisian form of 'th' amking it VIth Fenryka or 6th of Fenris?

 

Something I have been playing with since I read Prospero Burns some time back.

 

Just my 2 cents worth

[Týr]

I'm danish and have a fair bit of expertise speaking nordic languages if I may say so.

 

I like the idea OP, about vlka coming from russian.

 

But it could also come from valkyrie. Warrior goddesses that decided which warriors were fit to enter Valhalla on behalf of Odin.

This fit very well, with the wolves deciding which warriors from Fenris who were fit to join the legion (and they do this on behalf of the All Father which is another name for Odin)

Beside astarte, that the Adeptus Astarte are named after, was a warrior goddess. So it would seem about right that the wolves would take a name for themselves were a corresponding warrior goddess.

 

Good 'ol wiki tells that valkyrie comes from the word valr (refering to "those slain on the battlefield") and kjósa (to choose). Together these become "de valkårende" chooser of the slain.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vika

 

Swedish etymology: from the Old Norse vikja, to give in, to fold under pressure, to give up.

Serbo-Croatian: shouting, screaming

Finnish: flaw, fault, stain/flaw in character, wrong, colloquial adjective: the last

 

Perhaps the Serbo-Croatian, as in "those of Fenris that scream and shout"?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vika

 

Swedish etymology: from the Old Norse vikja, to give in, to fold under pressure, to give up.

Serbo-Croatian: shouting, screaming

Finnish: flaw, fault, stain/flaw in character, wrong, colloquial adjective: the last

 

Perhaps the Serbo-Croatian, as in "those of Fenris that scream and shout"?

In Prospero Burns, the Marines refer to the Space Wolves Legion as "the Rout," so maybe the Swedish version fits (sort of), i.e., "Those of Fenris that MAKE OTHERS give in, to fold under pressure, to give up"?

[Kol Saresk]

I would say that Dan Abnett is playing on the fact that the words are cognates and instead made a corrupted word Vlka which means both, Wolves and people so that it would be interchangeable as The People of Fenris and the Wolves of Fenris with the latter being the more common Low Gothic phrase that was used by the Imperium at large.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I agree with 'both' theory. It's 40k, you'd think that when space explorers went up to Fenris (or down to ... or ... whatever), they eventually ended up forming their own language that was a mix of a boatload of current ones.

[E.G.J.]

Here's my cynical take:

 

Abnett wanted another word for wolf and searched other languages for suitable homonyms or cognates. Checked Russian and saw Volk and thought, "Hey, that sounds and looks like the German Volk. Hmmm, wolves or people? I could do something with this."

 

Yet if he just used the regular Russian, chances are most people unfamiliar with Russian and/or Slavic languages wouldn't pick up on it and just think of the German. So he changed the second word around a little bit to sound slightly Russian. Hence, Fenryka.

 

But Volk Fenryka would be too obvious a reference to Russian, so therefore he removed the o in order to make it more ambiguous which would incidentally justify both the German and Russian interpretations. He then added the a for that Scandinavian flavor the Scandinavian languages are given by non-Scandinavian people. Abnett's literary way of doing the Swedish Chef. Findi fandi, Jaa vee are Vlka Fenryka, vee kommer från Sverige.

 

Voila! Vlka Fenryka, SW across three + languages.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Vlka is 'wolf' in Czech as well. Fenryka isn't really a word at all, apparently, but a contrivance of a name of a location, sort of like how 'Crazyville' isn't a word but a contrivance of a name of a location.

[Cactus]

Dan Abnett's made extensive use of puns and word-play in his comics work, so I can readily believe that the double-meaning is intentional.