Sword Brethren and Combat Shields

[Eenami5]

For Sword Brethren (p35, Black Templars codex) you can give each model Terminator Honors at 10pts each, and if you do, you may give them a combat shield (5+ invulnerable in close combat) for an additional 5pts. The book states that the combat shield is attached to the bolt pistol. Another option given is that you may give one model dual lightning claws. Now, it never states that the model loses or gives up the bolt pistol, so could I still have one Sword Brethren with Terminator Honors, Lightning Claws, and a Combat Shield (attached to holstered bolt pistol)?

[Isiah]

I don't have a BT dex to check. But I guess if it doesn't say 'replace' then you don't replace.

 

No doubt someone with a BT dex will be along to put this one to bed ;)

[KhorneHunter57x]

Sadly, you cannot.

 

Page 30 of Codex: Black Templars (under the Options header):

...Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated.

 

As it does not state otherwise, the Sword Brother loses his Bolt Pistol (and Chainsword) if he is upgraded with the Lightning Claws (or any other weapon, which is annoyingly problematic if you buy the Power Weapon upgrade for the Sword Bretheren).

[Roesor]

Far as I know the combat shield being attached to a bolt pistol is just an example yes? You can just have one I think, attach to your wrist?

[Algesan]

pg 27 of the Codex under the Combat Shield entry says that it is attached to the wrist so he can wield another weapon.

 

pg 30 lists

1st : choice of bolter or bolt pistol/CCW

2d: choice of Term Honors and options for that including the combat shield on a model with a bolt pistol (which means BP/CCW must have been chosen first)

3d: choice of various heavy and special weapons to replace the regular weapons.

 

Reading it from top to bottom, I'd say you simply replace the weapons and the combat shield isn't a weapon.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Here is the way it is listed in the army list entry for Sword Bretheren, on page 35 of C:BT:

Models with Terminator Honours may add a Combat Shield to their bolt pistol for +x points.

Then, you can buy upgrade weapons for the models, which, as I stated earlier, replace the Bolt Pistol. As the Combat Shield upgrade for Sword Bretheren is attached to the Bolt Pistol, getting any upgrade weapon for them replaces the Bolt Pistol and the attached Combat Shield.

 

 

 

It is similar to a Dreadnought. You can upgrade the 'attached' Storm Bolter to a Heavy Flamer, or you can replace the DCCW with a Missile Launcher. However, you cannot upgrade the SB to a HF and then keep it when you upgrade to a Missile Launcher.

[Eenami5]

I imagine that the Power Weapon and Power Fist entries are meant to state "Power weapon and bolt pistol" and "Power Fist and bolt pistol", as the book is already riddled with misprints, and the official GW Box-Set of Sword Brethren contains a model with Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol, and they certainly wouldn't sell an invalidly equipped model. ;) I realize that these reasons have basically no basis, but hopefully it'll be good enough for where I'm playing.

[Algesan]

Here is the way it is listed in the army list entry for Sword Bretheren, on page 35 of C:BT:

Models with Terminator Honours may add a Combat Shield to their bolt pistol for +x points.

Then, you can buy upgrade weapons for the models, which, as I stated earlier, replace the Bolt Pistol. As the Combat Shield upgrade for Sword Bretheren is attached to the Bolt Pistol, getting any upgrade weapon for them replaces the Bolt Pistol and the attached Combat Shield.

 

 

 

It is similar to a Dreadnought. You can upgrade the 'attached' Storm Bolter to a Heavy Flamer, or you can replace the DCCW with a Missile Launcher. However, you cannot upgrade the SB to a HF and then keep it when you upgrade to a Missile Launcher.

 

It is specifically attached to the forearm, not the bolt pistol in the wargear description I cited. So since it isn't attached, the weapon can be changed by going down the list of options, but doesn't affect the previously added combat shield, since it isn't a weapon. Or do we note on 30 under Options it states that a model gives up the weapons it was "originally armed with" and since it wasn't "originally armed" with a combat shield, it doesn't count?

 

Dreadnought example is not valid because it on pg 35 (the same page) it specifically states: "Additionally, the Dreadnought may replace its close combat weapon arm (including any built-in weapons) with a missile launcher..." Emphasis added.

 

Of course, there is the amusing point that adding a power fist by your method would remove all other weapons. Are you saying all my BP/PF and BP/PW models are illegal?

 

Or do we note that if a model spends an extra 15 points it gets an extra attack and a 5++ save in CC and figure that a fair price and not really worth arguing over? After all, I can buy 1.5 Neophytes for that and if you give me 1 point an Initiate.

[KhorneHunter57x]

It is specifically attached to the forearm, not the bolt pistol in the wargear description I cited. So since it isn't attached, the weapon can be changed by going down the list of options, but doesn't affect the previously added combat shield, since it isn't a weapon. Or do we note on 30 under Options it states that a model gives up the weapons it was "originally armed with" and since it wasn't "originally armed" with a combat shield, it doesn't count?

Yet, in the options for Sword Brethren, as I quoted earlier, it states that they may "add a combat shield to their bolt pistol...". The model gives up the weapons it was "originally armed with" (including the bolt pistol), and, as the combat shield is added to the bolt pistol, you should lose the combat shield.

 

It is kinda hard to add something (in this case, a combat shield) to something else that doesn't exist (in this case, the bolt pistol). This was the point I was trying to make with the Dreadnought comparison.

 

Of course, there is the amusing point that adding a power fist by your method would remove all other weapons.

"By [my] method" is the way the Codex does it.

Are you saying all my BP/PF and BP/PW models are illegal?

Yes, I am, but only if they are Sword Brethren. Crusader Squads state that they are upgraded with a "power fist and bolt pistol" or a "power weapon and bolt pistol" in the options, and Assault Squads specify that only the Close Combat Weapon is swapped for a PW/PF (leaving the BP on the model, as this falls into the "unless otherwise stated" part of the Options rules).

 

Or do we note that if a model spends an extra 15 points it gets an extra attack and a 5++ save in CC and figure that a fair price and not really worth arguing over? After all, I can buy 1.5 Neophytes for that and if you give me 1 point an Initiate.

You can do whatever you want within your gaming group, and I agree that the extra 15 points is a fair price to pay for what you are getting, but as this is the +OFFICIAL RULES+ sub-forum, I think that we should come to a consensus about what is legal and what is illegal based on the rules as they are printed in the Codex.

[Algesan]

It is specifically attached to the forearm, not the bolt pistol in the wargear description I cited. So since it isn't attached, the weapon can be changed by going down the list of options, but doesn't affect the previously added combat shield, since it isn't a weapon. Or do we note on 30 under Options it states that a model gives up the weapons it was "originally armed with" and since it wasn't "originally armed" with a combat shield, it doesn't count?

Yet, in the options for Sword Brethren, as I quoted earlier, it states that they may "add a combat shield to their bolt pistol...". The model gives up the weapons it was "originally armed with" (including the bolt pistol), and, as the combat shield is added to the bolt pistol, you should lose the combat shield.

 

It is kinda hard to add something (in this case, a combat shield) to something else that doesn't exist (in this case, the bolt pistol). This was the point I was trying to make with the Dreadnought comparison.

 

Of course, there is the amusing point that adding a power fist by your method would remove all other weapons.

"By [my] method" is the way the Codex does it.

Are you saying all my BP/PF and BP/PW models are illegal?

Yes, I am, but only if they are Sword Brethren. Crusader Squads state that they are upgraded with a "power fist and bolt pistol" or a "power weapon and bolt pistol" in the options, and Assault Squads specify that only the Close Combat Weapon is swapped for a PW/PF (leaving the BP on the model, as this falls into the "unless otherwise stated" part of the Options rules).

 

Or do we note that if a model spends an extra 15 points it gets an extra attack and a 5++ save in CC and figure that a fair price and not really worth arguing over? After all, I can buy 1.5 Neophytes for that and if you give me 1 point an Initiate.

You can do whatever you want within your gaming group, and I agree that the extra 15 points is a fair price to pay for what you are getting, but as this is the +OFFICIAL RULES+ sub-forum, I think that we should come to a consensus about what is legal and what is illegal based on the rules as they are printed in the Codex.

 

That's a bit of forced interpretation since we actually have a wargear description that states that the combat shield is attached to the forearm and I'm simply going down the listing under Sword Brethren from top to bottom, so the requirement to have a bolt pistol to get a combat shield would mean that the bolter would first have to be replaced with a BP/CCW.

 

Actually, the initial weapon is a Bolter. It may be replaced with a BP/CCW in the first entry. If we are going to be that tight on the rules, that is the way it reads. Should we also consider that a combat shield is listed under wargear and not weapons?

 

Dreadnought example doesn't fly because the rules specifically prohibit the action you are trying to make it an analogy of.

 

And as I stepped down the listing line by line, I added in the various optional items. Exactly in the order written. So, which do you consider to be the misprint or unclear wording since there is a supposed contradiction, the wargear section or the individual unit entry?

 

Oh, you are right, fortunately I haven't ever thought about equipping a SB squad with PF or PW since I've only been planning them as pseudo command CC squads. Oh, wait a minute, I'm using a different method than you, so, let's try it your way to see how it works...

 

Remember if we get into overly tight +OFFICIAL RULES+ interpretations without dealing with any context, that means that I can have a BP/CCW/CS/Melta armed and a BP/CCW/CS/Twin-LC equipped Sword Brethren by simply using that "Initial weapon" rule as rigidly as you are trying to do the unit listing.

 

Heck, if we are being that tightly focused on the +OFFICIAL RULES+ and looking only at the unit entry, then I get to simply add any of the "Options" choices because the rule about replacing Initial weapons is off on another page so therefore not relevant at all. And I still get both of those fun SB models if I feel like it although I do have to replace the Bolter with BP/CCW because a BP is required for a CS in the entry.

 

There is a lot more than simply saying +OFFICIAL RULES+ as if you are playing the ace of trump. A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text.

 

In this case, using your logic and interpretation of the "+OFFICIAL RULES+", not only do I get to keep the CS, but I also get the BP and a couple of guys with heavy/special weapons. Thank you for allowing a build with twin LC, a CS, a BP and an extra CCW for fun. Careful, the guys with the claws can shoot too. So, still going to claim your method is the one in the codex?

[KhorneHunter57x]

That's a bit of forced interpretation since we actually have a wargear description that states that the combat shield is attached to the forearm and I'm simply going down the listing under Sword Brethren from top to bottom, so the requirement to have a bolt pistol to get a combat shield would mean that the bolter would first have to be replaced with a BP/CCW.

Yes, the bolter would have to be replaced with a BP/CCW.

 

Actually, the initial weapon is a Bolter. It may be replaced with a BP/CCW in the first entry. If we are going to be that tight on the rules, that is the way it reads. Should we also consider that a combat shield is listed under wargear and not weapons?

To borrow your phrase, "If we are going to be that tight on the rules," well, then shouldn't we also consider that the BP/CCW equipment is listed under the Weapons heading (not the Options heading). On page 30 is states:

Weapons: These are the unit's standard weapons.

Therefore, the BP/CCW are the "standard weapons," and therefore are replaced with any option.

 

Dreadnought example doesn't fly because the rules specifically prohibit the action you are trying to make it an analogy of.

That it is prohibited is exactly my point. You cannot upgrade your DCCW with a Heavy Flamer, and then keep the Heavy Flamer when you swap the DCCW for a Missile Launcher in the same way that you cannot add a Combat Shield to your Bolt Pistol and then keep the Combat Shield when you swap the Bolt Pistol (and Chainsword) for a pair of Lightning Claws. It is explicitly prohibited in the Dreadnought options, but it is not in the Sword Brethren options, though the same logic applies. You cannot keep something when what it is attached to is traded in for something else.

 

And as I stepped down the listing line by line, I added in the various optional items. Exactly in the order written. So, which do you consider to be the misprint or unclear wording since there is a supposed contradiction, the wargear section or the individual unit entry?

I consider the "fastened to their forearm" statement to be a bit of fluff about the piece of wargear (just like the "badge of office" statement about the Crozius, a bit further down on the page), and therefore overridden by the "add combat shield to their bolt pistol" statement in the options for Sword Brethren.

[Algesan]

@KhorneHunter57x

Okay, you missed a few things, so I guess you will get to them later.

 

On the pg 30 stuff. Sure, under Weapons they have the choice to replace the weapons they are originally armed with (Bolters) for a BP/CCW for free. It still doesn't make the BP/CCW the initial weapon, unless we start interpreting the rules rationally, if not then the Bolter still remains the initial weapon which must be removed according to the Options heading. Oh, we did that already when we swapped to BP/CCW, so we don't have to do it any more.

 

You really didn't think that covered the situation did it?

 

Let's see...are there any other mentions of models with CS? Why yes, in fact the one in Command Squad references back to Wargear for an explanation of the CS. NOT to the entry under Sword Brethren. So, how did you decide that the entry in Wargear was fluff and the one in the Sword Brethren entry was not? Where is your support in the codex? In fact, how do you even get a clue about what a CS does without the entry in Wargear?