Getting rid of heavy weapons

[H.C.118]

Lately, I've been hearing about eschewing the heavy weapon on Tactical Squads that are mounted in Rhinos and Drop Pods, as they will never be used. I'm posting it here to hear other people's thoughts on it. Personally, I like to take them just in case, but as I said, I wanted to have some more opinions.

[greatcrusade08]

being able to take heavy flamers would solve sooo many issues with the heavy.

personally i think a multi-melta should be taken in all events just incase

[Captain Malachi]

Depends, if you're using the rhino to move the squad up and take an objective then it's a good idea to keep. Think about it, two turns moving up, maybe an extra turn positioning, leaves you what? 2-4 turns of defending? Seems having a heavy might come in handy there. Besides, you keep your bolt pistol so you only lose one shot on the move.

[Xeonic]

I can't think of any situation where one bolt shot would be worth losing a free S8+ shot for. I take the missile launcher at least as a matter of course because to do otherwise is silly in my opinion, even if you only fire it once or twice per game. One bolt shot, or the potential to kill an armored or otherwise high value target with more certainty than the single bolt shot would give you, easy decision. 'Sides if you're concerned with rapidfire damage just take a freaking plasma gun.

 

Now my chaos marines take paired specials because for a more aggressively themed army paying for heavy weapons(outside of dedicated squads of course) is more than a little silly.

[DarkGuard]

Agreed, there is little reason to not take a heavy weapon, particularly a free one. Both of my Tactical squads take multi-meltas, which allows them to hurt vehicles and set up a 24" radius threat zone outside of the Rhino. Also, if you feel the heavy weapon isn't need in the current situation you can play wound allocation games with them.

[LardO'Blood]

I always take missile launchers, sometimes even on my sternguard/company veterans. It's just nice to stand still a turn and have a S8 AP3 shot or a S4 AP6 blast. Especially if you're scoring, it's a good way for a backfield objective squad to boost the armies firepower for cheap.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The only time you want to run a Tactical Squad naked is if you are using them as a sacrificial lamb; but that is still an expensive lamb.

 

A Heavy Weapon is a very useful thing, even more so when it's free!

[spartan249]

I would love having the option to take a second special weapon instead of a heavy weapon. However, getting heavy weapons at a discounted price I don't really mind.

[Grey Mage]

I dont care if you plan on marching into the mouth of khorne and strangling his tonsils, you should bring a heavy weapon- probly a missile launcher for the versatility.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

A heavy weapon is great, even just for the psychological effect on an opponent. That multi-melta can keep vehicles away, even if we don't plan to use that squad for vehicle killing. And since its free, well its getting something for nothing now. Plus if you need to change tactics you have something to rely on!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'd say take one of the free heavy weapons (especially a ML) if only for the versatility it gives the squad. Just because you're not planning on shooting it doesn't mean you won't have a perfect opportunity to do so.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It is better to have and not need, than need and die screaming.

[Jackelope King]

It is better to have and not need, than need and die screaming.

Not always. It's a cost-benefit thing.

 

In this case, the cost is exceptionally minimal. You lose 1x S4AP5 shot at 12 inches after moving. With a Multi-Melta, as an example, you gain a large "No vehicles allowed" bubble centered on your Tactical Squad's Rhino. Net cost: 0 points for a 10-man squad (or 80 points if you were only taking a 5-man squad, which generally isn't the way to go with Codex: Space Marines). We add to the threat-profile of the unit, by making it a reasonable threat against Light and Heavy Vehicles.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It is better to have and not need, than need and die screaming.

Not always. It's a cost-benefit thing.

 

I disagree, at least with the above.

 

I would rather have that Heavy and be able to pop off shots - even at targets not really suited to its threat profile - than to have that same unit die because I didn't upgrade them to that Heavy; admittedly that is a fairly extreme way to put it, but it's true.

 

 

The thing is that it's all down to perception; the way I see Tactical Squads operating will probably be radically different to almost anyone else in the thread and so that informs the statements made.

[spartan249]

I agree with Jackelope. Having the heavy weapon does have a cost associated with it (mobility, firepower on the move), and some may think that cost is too high for the POU the tac squad is in. Someone like me, for instance.

 

In such a case, I would really like the option to replace that heavy weapon with a special weapon, since that opens up different strategic builds and tactical options.

 

I'm just really annoyed by the fact that GW is ramming this special/heavy thing down our throat with tac squads. Let them stay tactical (maybe even throw in the option to take two heavy weapons at appropriate prices, who knows).

[Ming]

Always take the free heavy - the guy still carries a bolter and grenades in case you need to charge. Just be prepared to know when not to use it or the rapid fire bolters...

[ShinyRhino]

Always take the free heavy - the guy still carries a bolter and grenades in case you need to charge. Just be prepared to know when not to use it or the rapid fire bolters...

 

Bolt pistol. You lose the bolter when you take the special or heavy.

 

Back at the tail end of Fourth Edition, I decided I was going to play an all-pod army, and due to that, I took 0 heavies inmy tactical squads. Even back then, it was a bad idea. I'd land a pod, do some close-range shooting, and then have 0 actions I could take if the fight was across the board from me. A missile launcher would have made my tac squad parked in cover across the board a viable threat. Sitting there with a 12" range meltagun and nine bolters didn't make me very threatening.

 

Fifth Edition has made a bunchof heavy weapons FREE for a tac squad. There's no reason NOT to take a free one. You lose a single bolt shot in the trade, but gain a trio of S5, AP4 shots with the heavy bolter, or a S8 shot with the multimelta or missile launcher.

 

The real debate here should be whether you take a 10-man squad, or not, to unlock the special and heavy weapons. Technically, the "free" heavy and/or flamer isn't free. They cost the points needed to buy those 5 extra Marines. If you're Razorbacking it, it's often not worth the cost of the extra 5 Marines to unlock the heavy/special, as you have them on the Razorback instead. That's the main lure of Razorspam...cheap transports and small Troops units that are insulated from damage inside AV11.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed in 4th there really was a reason not to take heavy weapons but the game has changed. It's funny because my preferred support Tacticals were a pair of 5-man Plasma gun squads and a pair of 5-man Lascannon Tacticals, which are essentially 2 full Tactical squads with a Plasma gun and Lascannon. They cost 171pts each if my memory serves me correctly.

 

Now, those squads didn't come with a Veteran Sergeant, frag or krak grenades, which would bump the points up further. Like for like equivilent:

 

216pts for 4th edition Tactical squad with Veteran Sergeant, Plasma Gun, Lascannon, frag and krak grenades.

 

190pts for 5th edition Tactical squad which comes free with Veteran Sergeant, frag and krak grenades and a Plasma gun and Lascannon. Free bolt pistols all round!

 

Seems like costs went down right? Well yes and no. For all that extra stuff points did come down, but the point of contention I have is I will likely never use those upgrades! That Tactical squad will probably never be making an assault, therefore will probably never use the bolt pistols over rapid firing or the frag grenades, whilst the Krak grenades are something I would lose if it saved me points.

 

Of course, my 10-Man Tacticals supporting the attack are great when taking advantage of their bolt pistols and grenades and sergeant, but I would rather save the 21pts on my other Tacticals (42pts when I take 2 such units, which I don't any more as the points cost isn't points efficient).

 

But for the OP, yes, take the weapon.

[Jackelope King]

The real debate here should be whether you take a 10-man squad, or not, to unlock the special and heavy weapons. Technically, the "free" heavy and/or flamer isn't free. They cost the points needed to buy those 5 extra Marines. If you're Razorbacking it, it's often not worth the cost of the extra 5 Marines to unlock the heavy/special, as you have them on the Razorback instead. That's the main lure of Razorspam...cheap transports and small Troops units that are insulated from damage inside AV11.

Dead-on. Both the Traditional Mech (10-man Tactical Squads take midfield with Rhinos becoming Multi-Melta Bunkers) and Armored Cavalry (5-man Tactical Squads hold mid- to backfield in Las/Plas Razorbacks) are quite viable. At the moment, my preference is for Armored Cavalry purely because I just finished converting a bunch of Las/Plas turrets reminiscent of the old Razorback turrets ;)

[Wildfire]

I agree that many times a heavy weapon will not be used (how often depends on your play style). If all heavy weapons still cost points, I might pass it up. Or if you could take two specials instead (I almost always prefer specials to heavies), I'd give them up. But since you have three choices for free heavies, there's not much reason not to.

[Bartali]

The real debate here should be whether you take a 10-man squad, or not, to unlock the special and heavy weapons. Technically, the "free" heavy and/or flamer isn't free. They cost the points needed to buy those 5 extra Marines. If you're Razorbacking it, it's often not worth the cost of the extra 5 Marines to unlock the heavy/special, as you have them on the Razorback instead. That's the main lure of Razorspam...cheap transports and small Troops units that are insulated from damage inside AV11.

Dead-on. Both the Traditional Mech (10-man Tactical Squads take midfield with Rhinos becoming Multi-Melta Bunkers) and Armored Cavalry (5-man Tactical Squads hold mid- to backfield in Las/Plas Razorbacks) are quite viable. At the moment, my preference is for Armored Cavalry purely because I just finished converting a bunch of Las/Plas turrets reminiscent of the old Razorback turrets :)

 

I don't know about Razorback lists for C:SM. They're good alright, but with the type of list that generates, I think Space Wolves can do it better. I think C:SM are stronger with the aforementioned 10 man Rhino Multi-Melta bunkers.

[DarkGuard]

I'd agree with you Bartali, although I feel Blood Angels do Razorback lists better than Space Wolves. Take scoring Assault Marines, remove jump packs, now you've got a discount on your fast Razorback and can still take a special weapon. Quite nasty.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I can't see a 2 special weapon tactical squad. Its not 'tactical' in the sense GW promotes it as a unit that can both sit back at a range or sweep into the fray. With 2 specials as an option many would forgo the heavy altogether (understandably) and the tactical flexibility it is promoted to have would vanish into a more 1D unit. I think thats where combi-weapons were used, to give some semblance of 2 specials...

[Bartali]

....although I feel Blood Angels do Razorback lists better than Space Wolves.

 

I think they just do it differently. You'd probably take an AssCan (or even Flamestorm cannons ) on BA Razorbacks instead of Las/Plas for Spacewolves for instance

[DarkGuard]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Grim, if you want two specials go to Space Wolves or Blood Angels. On an interesting note, Blood Angels Tactical Marines also can only take one special, it's the Assault Squads that get the two specials (although more choice than ours and scoring), but that does mean less bolt shots so the whole jumping out of a Rhino is less viable. I do wish the heavy flamer was an option, even if it was 10, maybe 15 points, would certainly help us.

 

That being said, I've had great success recently with a combi-flamer, flamer, multi-melta squad. The meltas have been fantastic firing out the top hatch, and the combi paired with the flamer simulates the idea of a two special squad. Furthermore, in my experience you only really need and get to fire the combi once. Notice the tactical flexibility of the squad, being able to combat infantry and vehicles, while being able to scoot around in a Rhino. If GW wanted us to field squads with this sort of flexibility, it would appear that they have succeeded.

 

@Bartali, I'll have to agree with you there, though I will say my preferred one is BA Razorback, if I were a SW I'd be trying to cram in two specials in each squad, though that's probably the bitter resentful Codex Tactical Marine in me who only gets one special and one heavy :P.

 

EDIT: in response the earlier suggestion that the heavy will never get used, it depends on the squad. Squads with multi-meltas will typically use their weapons, as when you're in midfield you're looking to hold that position until the last few turns of the game when you grab objectives etc. The last few games I've been able to use them to defend objectives, and fired their multi-meltas pretty much every turn, claiming a two Dreadnoughts, and possibly a Land Raider (I can't remember the model that finally killed it). However, my old power fist, combi-melta, meltagun, missile launcher was more dynamic in that it wants to get to grips with the enemy more, and moved more often to get the melta shots off. In this case I very rarely, if ever used the missile launcher, but I still included it because it was better than a single bolt shot, and handy if I took far flung objectives as they'd still be able to contribute to the game. I only ever use the free options now, that way, if I don't fire it its not a waste.