Tri-Plas Assault Squad

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Has anyone tried running the seldom seen 3 plasma pistol assault squad + jetpacks?

 

I was thinking of running 3 pistoleers and a powerfist at a whopping 260 points! Its attacks help it vs light infantry and the pistols seem like they'd be great at taking out light vehicles and tougher infantry.

 

I want to know what experiences people have had from running said unit in particular and what the unit can expect to do reliably, as opposed to looking at it and telling me its bad because it costs so much, or that 2 flamers is better etc

[Xeonic]

+nullzone/avenger+plasma pistol jump libby. Cry, anything with an invuln save vs the plasma.

 

Been meaning to try this, but it seems a little to the far side of cost effective...

[LardO'Blood]

Why don't you just use a command squad with 4 plasma guns in a rhino?

It's outperformed for cheaper.

 

But you do want help, so, I'd recommend using it with a tactical squad to rapid fire/assault. The plasma pistols can damage more or less anything and should weaken the target up a bit after the 15-20 bolter shots. (You should probably give the tactical squad a melta gun to threaten armor as well. Maybe a combi-plasma to add to the firepower.)

[DarkGuard]

In my experience plasma wounds can be faithfully recreated by weight of fire. Sure the plasma shot if it hits is more likely to kill a Marine, but a flamer is guaranteed a hit, and normally a lot of them. Combined with bolt fire and you will likely cause around the same amount of wounds as if you fired your plasma pistol. The only case where plasma pistols would definitely be superior is against MCs, and vehicles I guess.

 

For my plasma though, I'd either look to Tactical squad, or more likely, a Command squad, but there's no reason to not try it on an assault Marine. Telling the truth I'm more scared of low AP weapons than lots of saves, so it can be an effective, if only one that is psychological.

[Xeonic]

I use a plasma command squad on occasion, but plasma assault marines hold a certain charm, and have very different mechanics, not to mention they have no captain overhead, so you can just take whatever HQ you want to support them.

 

For one, the quad plas command squad costs a -minimum- of 210 pts to field mechanized, including a rhino, but excluding the captain, who will probably not be with them anyways. It outputs 8 AP2 plasma and a couple bolter shots at 12", or 4 plasma shots at 24", has 15 attacks on the charge, and feel no pain on 5 bodies.

The triple plas assault squad is 235 and while outputting significantly less AP2, does have some other advantages, so I'll look at pros and cons:

 

Pros for assault squad:

+no HQ requirement overhead so you can take whatever HQ you want.

+Jumppack mobility -or- a free rhino

+plasma pistols are assault weapons and you retain all your potential attacks with them

+7 ablative wounds instead of none(countering FnP)

+7 bolt pistols

+31 attacks on the charge instead of 15

+deep strike without a pod

+can combat squad(for what it's worth)

Cons:

-only 3 AP2 shots and you're paying 45 pts for them

-costs a little more than a command squad

-no ranged attacks outside of 12"

-a little better than half the average ranged wounds output vs MEQ, but better potential damage

 

Honestly, personally they look just plain fun, no they're not as scary as those 4 feel no pain plasma guns sitting across the table, but on the other hand they're actually attached to a fairly interesting and all around cool general combat unit it would be fun to spring on someone. Their performance may even surprise you.

On the other hand you might get more wounds out of a pair of flamers just the same, but that's highly requisite on the # of hits you can get.

[ShinyRhino]

I've also considered a tri-plas Assault Squad. To properly pull ito ff, though, you need the full 10 men, which does make it spendy.

The thing to remember is the proper target for the plasma. You're going to want to hit the small, elite units with it. Terminators (not Hammernators), Command Squads, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Long Fangs, etc. The trio of plasma shots can really mess these small units up, leaving them nice and vulnerable to a massed charge afterward.

The trick is reaching those units unscathed, though the 10-man requirement does help you get there with the plasma intact.

I'd personally skip the powerfist in this build. It's a LOT of points on one model. I'd take meltabombs, instead, for armor insurance. The only thing the fist is really going to be needed for is a monstrous creature. The volley of plasma will knock a lot of those big baddies down a notch, and the fistc an finish them off. You're going to take several casualties doing so, though.

 

You can actually knock this up a notch to a Quad Plasma Assault Squad by adding in an HQ. Librarian, Chaplain, Captain, or Chapter Master can all take a plasma pistol.

The Librarian allows a slew of neat powers to be added to the squad, but is fragile in close combat. He does get a force weapon, which can be nice for ID'ing things with multiple wounds (Nid MCs). Since you'll be shooting the plasma pistol before the charge, you should have a power left to activate the force weapon if it wounds.

The Chaplain ensures you stay til the last man, and adds more hits to the queue when you charge in, and also has power weapon attacks.

The Captain and Chapter Master add nothing to the squad (beyond Ld10), but can carry some awesome wargear. Artificer armor, plasma pistol, relic blade, etc. The relic blade alone can make up for the missing powerfist on the sergeant, if you like.

 

I say go for it. A most you'll be making up two or three models you might not always use. I personally have a plasma pistol-carrying Assault Marine in my case who's begging for a partner.

[Br0ther Rafen]

I agree with Rhino's method, but i would use the Chappy. With the chappy, your squad is now decent in CC, with re-rolls to hit, has a power weapon, and is Fearless (but is as dangerous as it is helpful), and with four Plasma Pistols, you should be able to counter most anything short of Hammernators.

But, if you really want to, just go for it man. Maybe proxy first, see if you like it, and if you do, then you will have fun surprising your opponent with the tri/quad plasma assault squad.

[Xeonic]

It's worth noting that while the captain or master just add a BS5 plasma pistol and melee punch to the squad, the chaplain and libby support it in different ways, adding another BS4 plasma pistol and support in CC(rerolls and fearless) or at range. The libby in particular could bring nullzone for invulns and force dome for durability vs AP2 or a shooting power such as or smite or avenger to replace his pistol and lower overall cost.

 

In theory at least, this is one of those units I've always wanted to try out but never seem to have the models lying about for(plasma pistols are a rarity in my collection).

[Shadowstalker Grim]

See the only problem i have with adding a HQ is the lack of jump packs for them to wear (though I suppose I could always say the libby im going to cobble together out of bits (some of which may come from the chaos terminator lord sprue....to show hes defeated heretics of course...) could use his psychic powers to defy gravity and fly around)

 

Though adding that HQ would mean that the unit becomes all the more deadly...I have an over-abundance of plasma pistols I think, 5 or something silly..maybe more..

 

I have no parts for a chaplain or jump packs even if i did have a chaplain, so it'll probably be a librarian addition if anything.

 

 

Im quite liking the thoughts you are all putting forward, the main drawback seems to be the price of the unit really! But I like the sound of a fast moving unit to cull enemy elites....

 

Keep the ball rolling on ideas, perhaps its worth comparing them to vanguard (who can take lots of plasma pistols?)

[Wildfire]

That's a lot of points to spend on something that will either be wasting combat ability, or using them once or twice a game.

[DarkGuard]

Grim, if you chose to go with the Libby, what powers would you be taking to help out the squad? If he's got a plasma pistol you don't really need to worry too much about shooty powers like Smite or Avenger (although Avenger is always solid). I'd imagine Null Zone would still be a good choice especially if you're shooting all those plasma pistols at Terminators. Maybe Force Dome to protect the squad when approaching enemy lines, or a combat power to help out in combat. I only mention this because you may feel the need to make him an Epistolary to get full use of the combat power, which would only drive up the points of a 2 wound, armour 3+ model who has no invulnerable save.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Well with the libby, he isn't JUST a 2 wound, no invulnerable helper. Hes a plasma pistol wielding one with a jetpack. Hes basically a nutcase! I get the feeling he'd end up being a suicidal points sink, though nullzone and force dome I think would be the choices for him!

 

The reason I like captains and chapter masters is the bigger stat profile and more wounds, though I wish they had more of a buffing power built in....

 

Course, the libby could just run without the plasma pistol...

 

Hes 140 with a plasma pistol and jump pack, 190 with the epistolary upgrade. Course that would make the squad extra nasty, but 450ish points overall I think. Moving into uber unit territory there!

[ShinyRhino]

Well, the one good thing about the Epistolary upgrade is that it doesn't require any mods to the model itself. So, youc an try it out a bunch of times with or without the upgade without having to build a new model. Wargear selections, however, are less forgiving and require WYSIWYG or a proxy for test games.

 

Personally, I think you'll find the Epistolary upgrade to be overcosted. You'll rarely need or have the opportunity to use two powers per turn when you're dedicated to firing that pistol. Null Zone will be invaluable, and Force Dome will be nice to give the mooks some sort of save versus the AP3 shots coming their way, but you'll likely never use both in one turn. You might also consider Gate of Infinity, in case you run out of juicy plasma targets in the immediate vicinity. Gate over to a new spot and blast away. That will leave you very vulnerable to blasts and such, though, so be careful!

[Xeonic]

Force dome and nullzone sounds like a solid combo to me given the amount of ablative wounds you have to use it on, about as good as you can get, and with a plasma pistol you won't need to take a pre-assault avenger shot. A power weapon or lightning claw on sarge wouldn't go astray, giving you a fairly solid combat unit with a pair of SCCWs. I'd consider might of ancients as well as a sort of melta bomb light for the libby, plus relic blade light in CC vs squishies.

 

As said though it's a lot of points to spend on something that will only be used a couple times a game maybe(the same is true of all flamers though...), but you can leverage their strengths and somewhat cover their weaknesses with a libby or chaplain. Plus it sounds like an awesome unit to field, very unique and different from what you'd think when you see Assault Marines in someone's list.

[DarkGuard]

Well with the libby, he isn't JUST a 2 wound, no invulnerable helper. Hes a plasma pistol wielding one with a jetpack. Hes basically a nutcase!

 

Haha, too true, and its the nutcases that do the most damage! :(

 

I certainly feel that if you go force dome and Null Zone you don't need the Epistolary upgrade, use Force Dome while rolling up the field, then Null Zone when engaging said invulnerable save unit.

 

Like Xeonic says, you don't need Avenger, and special combat weapons on the Sergeant would be good, I'd go power fist personally, allowing you to finish off MCs, or the IC when you've blown his bodyguard unit aside in a hail of plasma fire.

 

EDIT: I do feel though, that if you have the points a Captain would be better, due to the better statline and Relic Blade, or the Chaplain due to combat re-rolls, but the Librarian isn't bad for keeping the squad alive and forcing more kills.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think thats why I like it, its something different from the typical 'sweeper squad'. It seems a lot harder hitting and for not too much more....its only 25 points to go from 2 flamers to 2 plasma pistols and one for the captain!

 

On that note, I would like to ask if you think the powerfist would be a worthwhile addition? Its 40 points in combo with the pistol on the sarge, lots gone if he blows up...but the fist usually adds some weight to the squad and maybe makes it even more vehicle destructive. In respect to the rest of the unit it, it would push it from 235 to 260 points, which isn't too steep an increase overall! Or would a power weapon suffice? Generally i lean to the fist as a strong choice for a heavy hitting unit.

 

Oh and ironically, I think a cappy might be cheaper, wargear pending. A relic, arty, plasma pistol and jump pack are 185, the libby with jump pack, plasma pistol and epistolary is 190!

 

Chappy is like 130 i believe, heck of a lot cheaper!

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I feel that it's only fair now that we do a comparison between this tri-plas and the dual flamers.

 

They have different roles, though maintain a similar melee capacity. The difference between these two squads is small really (25 points more for plas over the dual flamers)

 

So by picking flamers are we making a choice that locks them into a single role, when the plasma unlocks more roles for the unit? Or is flamers so good that it overpowers the tri-plas in strength?

[DarkGuard]

I feel that it's only fair now that we do a comparison between this tri-plas and the dual flamers.

 

They have different roles, though maintain a similar melee capacity. The difference between these two squads is small really (25 points more for plas over the dual flamers)

 

So by picking flamers are we making a choice that locks them into a single role, when the plasma unlocks more roles for the unit? Or is flamers so good that it overpowers the tri-plas in strength?

 

Flamers certainly allow the Assault squad to specialise in a certain specific role, that of anti light infantry in which they already excel. The ability to chuck down two flamer templates before charging means they can carve through lightly armoured squads, while threatening more heavily armoured squads through inflicting lots of wounds. Are we straitjacketing them into one role? Short answer: no. Long answer: while flamers certainly mean that they engage infantry with more success, they can still engage heavy infantry with the right support, and still threaten tanks. Especially when you give your sergeant a thunder hammer or power fist. This allows you to threaten those elite units and vehicles, while also allowing the Assault squad to specialise in its best role.

 

What plasma does is that it allows more potential for different roles through range, but it actually decreases their effectiveness at their best role. Remember that a Space Marine army, while being generalist, is best built with units performing specific roles first and foremost, and a then have a back up to use later. For the points cost involved, I do still prefer dual flamer. However, the plasma pistols do allow the use of an addition CCW, so you get more attacks to compensate somewhat against horde.

 

So in short, the dual flamer does narrow the unit more than the plasma, but not completely, and with the correct sergeant upgrades they can still threaten targets that the plasma can. The plasma widens their roles, but they can no longer perform their best role of anti-infantry as efficiently as they could.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I partially agree with you Darkguard!

 

Well in the sense that assault marines lose an attack I think from the flamer, whilst they get the full load from the plasma pistols. Not much of a difference as the flamers more than make up for that really.

 

Thing is the points increase isn't massive, but is still fairly heavy. Perhaps plasma is left to different parts of our lists?

 

Thing is we get so many bodies with our assault marines and it's not too pricey, plus they retain a pretty powerful melee capacity. They lose out against large hordes perhaps, but get stronger vs tougher enemies

 

All this talk about plasma pistols has made me think about removing the storm bolter off my captain (which might aswel be 5 points) and pay 10 more points for a plasma pistol...

[DarkGuard]

The thing is Assault marines are only really good in assault against light infantry, against heavy infantry they struggle, as they're often hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, and allowing 3+ saves. Plasma pistols may help a little, but they may not. And IMO the plasma pistol is still one of the most overpriced pieces of equipment in the Codex. For the same points you can get a plasma gun on a Command squad, or for the price of two pistols you can equip three Tactical squads with plasma guns. I like plasma, but I now rarely find a place for it in my list, with my favouring flamer and melta weaponry at the moment. If I were to use plasma, it would be in my Command squad, or maybe a Tactical squad again, but I wouldn't put it in an Assault squad, though that's personal preference.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I see flamers and meltas as the real choices in a list, though if assault squads has a 2 melta option with assault squads, id definately load up on them!

 

Plasma weaponry is strong, but also provides a huge threat to the 3 models that wield them, on multi wound models its a little safer to use them

[Brother Tual]

I get the idea behind this thread... but in all seriousness, 260 points for 3 plasma PISTOL shots? I cant see this unit being a winner or a game breaker at all. The only target that this combo will be somewhat effective against is a lone battle suit or oblit. Anything with 3 or more wounds (MC) or a unit of MC's will be beyond the capabilities of this unit...

 

Best to stick with flamers on this one and go for the little guys.

 

If you want a harrassment unit you should be looking at bikes with 2 x plasma and MM attack bike - Better speed, better shooting, better AT, more survivable (T5) and 3+ cover add in a captain and you have a scoring unit and most importantly you dont have to get into charge range unless you want to!

 

The combat potential you drop is is noticable but in application it is nothing to worry about - you drop 1/3 of your attacks BUT at str 4 WS 4 vs MEQ it is nothing to worry about AND the combat score will be offset by your higher T anyway.. so V GEQ you will still get the combat modifiers to get units to run as they will need a 6+ to wound!

[greatcrusade08]

ive always preferred flamers to plasmas, even against MEQ if you can get enough models under the templates then flamers have a much higher damage potential.

dual flamers on assault marines and flamer/combi-flamer on tac marines in a pod, youd be surprised how many wounds they can inflict

[DarkGuard]

ive always preferred flamers to plasmas, even against MEQ if you can get enough models under the templates then flamers have a much higher damage potential.

dual flamers on assault marines and flamer/combi-flamer on tac marines in a pod, youd be surprised how many wounds they can inflict

 

Pretty much this. A couple of plasma shots (or trio) will only kill about one or two people normally. A couple of flamers on the other hand with good placement can hit around 14 models between them. Therefore, you can expect to kill a couple of Marines just by making the player make loads of saves. So if the flamer can equal the plasma, the flamer gives you the flexibility to more efficiently engage light infantry and ignore cover saves, while being assault as well (plasma guns on tactical squads are not assault). Sure the plasma allows you to put wounds on MCs and shoot at light vehicles, but then these are things your bolt pistols and boltguns will no hardly anything against.

[fredbob524]

Tri-assault runs very poorly

Codex space marines of the vanilla variety is not about hammer unite unless they also happen to have storm shields.