Alpha Legion ... Questions about the Novels and the Games.

[Calacorm]

Hey Guys,

 

 

* Spoiler Alerts Below regarding the Novel "Legion"*

 

I got a few questions about these guys, since reading the book Legion.

 

I dont want to give away anything about the book, but since reading it I have a whole new look on these Renegades.

 

But my question are,

 

 

What Marks would they be using? I am guessing they must be either undivided or none at all?

 

Do the novels in anyways reflect the ideas of what the game designers intend for the game and where its headed?

 

And given the results and the out come of "Legion" do you think I can portray an Alpha Legion army using the current chaos codex accurately, or would I be better off using another marine codex as a count as army?

 

Also, I know its just a book and I know how it ended. But the last question, since the Heresy has the Alpha Legion truly turned traitor over the 10K years?

 

[Legatus]

I don't really think any of those are spoilers.

 

 

What Marks would they be using? I am guessing they must be either undivided or none at all?

Yes, the Alpha Legion is not worshiping any particular deity, but they might try to gain favours to further their own powers. They are generally played with undivided Marks or none at all.

 

 

Do the novels in anyways reflect the ideas of what the game designers intend for the game and where its headed?

Not really. The Legions during the Horus Heresy were very different from how they are now 10,000 years later. Bakc then they were still united fighting forces, led by their Primarchs, and with not much deep rooted chaos connections. However, when they had fled into the eye of terror the Legions of old got shattered due to the millennia of internecine war. Today, most Chaos forces are warbands led by a mighty Champion, and while a warband can be predominantly from one of the old Legions, it is not operating as one unit of the larger Legion any longer.

 

 

And given the results and the out come of "Legion" do you think I can portray an Alpha Legion army using the current chaos codex accurately, or would I be better off using another marine codex as a count as army?

The current day Alpha Legion are full on Chaos Space Marines. they do not pretend to be Chaos Marines to fool the other Legions. They are Chaos Space Marines. As such they are best played (and indeed intended to be played) with the Codex Chaos Space Marines. They would use mostly Chaos Space Marine squads, Havocs, Terminators, Chosen, etc.

 

 

Also, I know its just a book and I know how it ended. But the last question, since the Heresy has the Alpha Legion truly turned traitor over the 10K years?

From what every past Codex Chaos Space Marines has told us, yes. The Alpha Legion are Chaos Space Marines, and they make quite an effort to spread and grow Chaos cults everywhere within the Imperium. They will destroy Imperial Worlds, support Chaos cults, employ demons, the entire range.

[Candleshoes]

What Marks would they be using? I am guessing they must be either undivided or none at all?

The Alpha Legion fight for the Alpha Legion. It's as simple as that, they must be in control of their machinations, and they are cunningly intelligent enough to always place themselves in a position to do so. They wouldn't use any marks, though, if you Had to use one, it would be undivided.

 

Do the novels in anyways reflect the ideas of what the game designers intend for the game and where its headed?

The novels outline concepts. These concepts we can study and through our own interpretations, put into practice on the table top with what we have to work with, which is not always easy or effective. It is tough to accurately portray certain lore qualities behind non God following Legions, how does one reflect Terror Tactics? Months of planning unleashed at a single moment with the help of agents? The greatest living siege and fortification specialists alive? (NL, AL, IW respectively). With the current codex, the idea of uniqueness is a little lost, so you kinda have to go one of 3 paths. Full fluff (but not always effective or easy) A mix (try and stay true to the spirit of your Legion, but take a few good gaming choice that you can counts as) Play a competitive list with no bearing on what the heraldry on your models represent.

 

And given the results and the out come of "Legion" do you think I can portray an Alpha Legion army using the current chaos codex accurately, or would I be better off using another marine codex as a count as army?

They would not be well portrayed using Codex Space Marines. Let's put it this way, who was the brother that was completely anathema to Alpharius? Guilliman. There is no way on this side of the eye, that his ideals made reality would best show how the Alpha Legion thinks. Now, that being said from a fluff point of view, you can honestly do whatever it is you like, if you can make a army that you like to play with. Certainly making a marine based chaos army, that will refuse to use the majority of what makes the chaos book unique is a little ... handicapping right from the get go, and will likely lack a lot of flavor that exists in most armies.

 

Also, I know its just a book and I know how it ended. But the last question, since the Heresy has the Alpha Legion truly turned traitor over the 10K years?

Most people who read the book miss the point that Abnett was trying to make, the fact that the Alpha Legion are loyal to the realistic idea and pursuit of eternal war, not the Emperor's ideals (pre or post heresy). 10,000 years of pursuing their own goals (which may serve to hinder the Imperium, or help them) have made them literally the grey area. They made the choices for themselves, by themselves, to serve themselves.

 

"The Alpha Legion pride themselves on knowing everything. They prize knowledge above all things and hate the idea of anyone knowing more than they do. That's how they win their battles. In fact the only thing they hate more is the idea that they are being manipulated." --- Dan Abnett's Legion

 

That quote is bred into their blood. 10,000 years of hatred won't change it.

[chaplain belisarius]

@candleshoes-i like that quote...:P

[Legatus]

Let's put it this way, who was the brother that was completely anathema to Alpharius? Guilliman.

I'd say it was probably Angron. Sinple and direct tactics, instead of indirect, long term planned, underhanded methods. Of all the Legions, Guilliman's doctrines were about the most flexible and encouraged adaptability and initative of all ranks. Compare that to the Imperial Fists Legion which, despite expertly planned campaigns, had rigid and unimaginative force organisation. Not that the author of the Index Astartes Alpha Legion would care, of course.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Let's put it this way, who was the brother that was completely anathema to Alpharius? Guilliman.

I'd say it was probably Angron. Sinple and direct tactics, instead of indirect, long term planned, underhanded methods. Of all the Legions, Guilliman's doctrines were about the most flexible and encouraged adaptability and initative of all ranks. Compare that to the Imperial Fists Legion which, despite expertly planned campaigns, had rigid and unimaginative force organisation. Not that the author of the Index Astartes Alpha Legion would care, of course.

 

The Ultramarines fluff would suggest otherwise, given the censuring of its members that violate the Codex Astartes in spite of whatever conditions the battlefield presents. Guilliman was a logistician above all else, and logisticians are classic OCD cases, where structure and method are everything of import. If you're looking for flexibility and adaptability, I'd present the Sons of Horus as being a better example than the Ultramarines.

[Hellios]

I've seen a pretty cool vet heavy guard army that was used as Alpha legion... with all the vets being part of a cell on planet whatever or in task force whatever and then they usedf straken as the IG officer but made him an Alpha legionaire due to his 3+ and I think also T4? and he is S6 :D.

 

Not saying that is a Chaos Space Marine army but if you wanted to make an Alpha legion force that was a bit different from a normal chaos space marine force then it is an idea. Also the siege of Vraks has a specific list of human renegades with alpha legion marines in it and it also has a special character called Arkos the Faithless who is I think a company or chapter level master. Obviously you won't be able to use that list at most serious events but most friendly gaming environments shouldn't have a problem.

[Legatus]

I'd say it was probably Angron. Sinple and direct tactics, instead of indirect, long term planned, underhanded methods. Of all the Legions, Guilliman's doctrines were about the most flexible and encouraged adaptability and initative of all ranks. Compare that to the Imperial Fists Legion which, despite expertly planned campaigns, had rigid and unimaginative force organisation. Not that the author of the Index Astartes Alpha Legion would care, of course.

The Ultramarines fluff would suggest otherwise, given the censuring of its members that violate the Codex Astartes in spite of whatever conditions the battlefield presents. Guilliman was a logistician above all else, and logisticians are classic OCD cases, where structure and method are everything of import. If you're looking for flexibility and adaptability, I'd present the Sons of Horus as being a better example than the Ultramarines.

"Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all army in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react."

3rd Edition Index Astartes Imperial Fists

 

"One of Guilliman's edicts of wisdom was that any plan, however meticulously devised, seldom survives contact with the enemy. The primarch spoke, of course, of the need for flexibility and adaptation when at war."

Horus Heresy, Battle for the Abyss

 

 

Admittedly it is an easy misconception to assume "allways following the Codex" equals "allways do the same thing", but that is entirely wrong. The Codex includes treatises by several Primarchs on their distinct special field of expertise, and it now includes accounts of 10,000 years of military history. The Codex Doctrine can best be described as "use the best possible approach for each situation", and to best achieve that the Codex includes the vast amount of historical accounts, as well as suggesting that a Codex force should be capable to perform in all the possible chosen approaches.

 

The Codex doctrine is NOT "allways the same approach", it is "in each situation, pick the approach that is best". Quite on the contrary, those Chapters that stray from the Codex are usually resorting to favouring a few specific approaches.

 

Take for example the White Scars. They will chose a "mobile, hit & run" approach in almost every scenario. A Codex Chapter on the other hand will chose a "mobile, hit & run" approach only if that is the best possible approach for a situation. But in other situations they will chose a different approach.

The Salamanders favour close quarter fire fights and flame weapons in most situations. A Codex Chapter will resort to close quarter fire fights and flame based weapons if teh situation calls for it, but may chose a different approach if that was not the most beneficial way to go.

 

The Codex way is to chose the best approach for each situation, and a Codex force is expected to be capable to utilize all of the posible approaches. A Chapter straying from the Codex usually does so by focusing on a particular type of warfare. That situation smight suddenly change is a given, and in those cases a new approach has to be chosen, obviously. A Codex force therefor has to be able to quickly adapt to these changing situations.

 

The Lunar Wolves had a similar doctrine (though mainly based on Horus' own concepts, while Guilliman also adopted the best concepts of his brothers' doctrines) because they are the traitor force "multi-purpose" pendant to the loyalist Ultramarines. Just like the Ultramarines, they were not specialists in assaults, or sieges, or stubborn advances, they were adapt at all types of warfare.

[Chengar Qordath]

Admittedly it is an easy misconception to assume "allways following the Codex" equals "allways do the same thing", but that is entirely wrong.

In fact, it was that very misconception that got Alpharius (possibly) killed by Guilliman.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I find it interesting you'd choose a quote from a time prior to the introduction of the Codex Astartes into the fluff as a platform, since by virtue of its placement in the temporal line it's irrelevant to the discussion. :P

 

As to the rest of it, you might want to take that up with Marneus Calgar. Uriel Ventris didn't get sent to Medrengard on a death mission because of his clever use of battlefield initiative, but instead for violating the Codex Astartes. The point stands that the Ultramarines, like the Crimson Fists, seem to disdain initiative in preference for a rigid adherence to the Codex. Even if the Codex began as a multipurpose tool for battlefield innovation, somewhere down the centuries it became a thing to be followed by rote and woe betide those who stray from it.

 

As it is, the bulk of the other "Codex" Chapters, at least the ones that used to be Legions, seem to pay lip service to the Codex only, while using their own TACSOPs. The White Scars, Dark Angels, and Raven Guard in particular come to mind as Chapters that on the surface follow the Codex, but in practice reject it in favor of their own Primarchs' teachings, and it can't be said that the Ultramarines exhibit more initiative than any of those three Chapters I just named.

[Legatus]

As to the rest of it, you might want to take that up with Marneus Calgar. Uriel Ventris didn't get sent to Medrengard on a death mission because of his clever use of battlefield initiative, but instead for violating the Codex Astartes.

Of course, if the Codex Astartes explicitely advises a certain course of action, then going against that means needlessly wasting resources or putting your company at risk. The point remains: While specialised Chapters may have a specific number of approaches to chose from, Codex Chapters have virtually all approaches to chose from. And it is up to the Commander to assess the situation and recognise which passage from the Codex Astartes would best be applied. And if the battlefield situations change, then the approach has to be changed as well. That the Ultramarines punish their Captains for acting careless and unwise does not change the fact that a Codex Chapter is tactically much more diverse than a specialised divergent Chapter, and is organised in flexible formations, intended to adapt to changing battlefield conditions.

 

 

The point stands that the Ultramarines, like the Crimson Fists, seem to disdain initiative in preference for a rigid adherence to the Codex. Even if the Codex began as a multipurpose tool for battlefield innovation, somewhere down the centuries it became a thing to be followed by rote and woe betide those who stray from it.

This is how the Ultramarines' adherence to the Codex is described in the Deathwatch Rulebook (p. 54):

 

"As benefits the Chapter or Roboute Guilliman, the Ultramarines adhere rigidly to the tenets laid down in the Codex Astartes. For ten thousand years they have fought in the manner described in its holy pages. (...)

This is not to say that the Ultramarines are hidebound or unimaginative in their thinking, for it must not be forgotten that Primarch Roboute Guilliman is regarded as one of the most imaginative and innovative military thinkers of all time. It is rather a deep-seated belief that every problem can be solved with recourse to the Codex Astartes, that there is no need to reinvent solutions to dilemmas solved long ago. By their strict adherence to the Codex, the Ultramarines are in fact freed by it. The success of this doctrine is self-evident in the countless thousands of battle honours the Chapter has earned over ten millennia of loyal service to the Imperium."

 

To assume that Chapters that do not follow the Codex Astartes are then free to innovate is a misconception. What the Codex Astartes provides the Codex Chapter with are 10,000 years of military history and experience, and a doctrine that in it's core advocates that there is an optimal solution for each obstacle. A solution that can be found by consulting the Codex Astartes, and which can only be enacted by a force that is trained in all manners of warfare, so the force has to be flexible in order to properly apply the possible solutions suggested by the Codex Astartes.

 

Specialised Chapters that dismiss the Codex Astartes lack that rich military experience. They chose their way of war because it suits them and they are accustomed to it, not because it is empirically the most beneficial approach. A specialised Chapter will encounter situations where their way of war will be very suitable, but they will also encounter situations where their way of war is not that suitable. A Codex Chapter can allways adopt a suitable way of warfare, depending on the situation at hand. The Chapter that dismisses the Codex is not freed to come up with their own solutions. They now lack the solutions that have already been found and proven over thousands of years of warfare.

 

 

As it is, the bulk of the other "Codex" Chapters, at least the ones that used to be Legions, seem to pay lip service to the Codex only, while using their own TACSOPs. The White Scars, Dark Angels, and Raven Guard in particular come to mind as Chapters that on the surface follow the Codex, but in practice reject it in favor of their own Primarchs' teachings, and it can't be said that the Ultramarines exhibit more initiative than any of those three Chapters I just named.

You are likely to find the Ultramarines applying the same methods as either of the three Chapters mentioned above at some point. You are less likely to find any of the three Chapters applying the methods of the other two Chapters. The White Scars will usually fight like White Scars. The Dark Angels will usually fight like Dark Angels (even if 85% of that is completely Codex adherent). The Raven Guard will usually fight like the Raven Guard. The Ultramarines will fight like the White Scars, like the Dark Angels or like the Raven Guard at times when that way of fighting is most suitable.

[Brother Delias]

and in those times they need to do so... they are not near as adept as a specialised chapter... To say that the specialised chapters are hindered is a misconception on your part... a white scar is just as effective at combat in a way the salamander is, however, they go about it in diffrent ways... specialised is just that. They have taken things much the same way as Eldar have with their aspect warriors. They have specialised in every way of combat possible with their ideals. Are the White scars as adept as imperial fists at fortifing a bastion? No, but they are as adept at defending it in their own way. Are the Raven guard as effective at using fire and fury as the salamanders are? No, but they have their multitude of lightning claw bearing assault marines that dont have any use or need for a flamer. Point to prove here, is that take a codex chapter that is set up to fight in that way. I would rather have the specialised, non codex chapter at my back.

 

As to the alpha leion way of fighting... No Ultra tactics mean nothing to them, their preferred tactic is to undermine, subvert, and ultimately destroy the pillars of society without actually having to fight a battle, in that way they are actually much more dangerous than the other legions. Actual battles they fight in are more small force on force, with alot of "retreating" making the enemy think that they have defeated them, only to be attacked from a diffrent direction... remember, heads of the hydra...

[Legatus]

and in those times they need to do so... they are not near as adept as a specialised chapter...

Obviously the specialised Chapter will be at an advantage when the situation favours their particular way of war. And in all the other cases where that particular approach is not the ideal way, the specialised Chapter is at a disadvantage.

 

 

To say that the specialised chapters are hindered is a misconception on your part...

I don't think a claim that a specialised Chapter is less tactically diverse and less flexible than an allrounder Chapter can really be challenged. That is the definition of terms like "allrounder" or "specialised".

 

 

Are the White scars as adept as imperial fists at fortifing a bastion? No, but they are as adept at defending it in their own way. Are the Raven guard as effective at using fire and fury as the salamanders are? No, but they have their multitude of lightning claw bearing assault marines that dont have any use or need for a flamer.

I contest that assertion. You cannot just substitute one tactic with another and get the same results by being just as good with that tactic as someone else is with the other. In some situations mobile forces are just better than heavily armed static ones. Sometimes heavy weapons are more crucial than speed. You cannot chose either of ten different paths and allways get the exact same end result. There will allways be better and less suitable paths. Specialised Chapters are about allways chosing certain paths. They are good at those paths, but those paths are not allways the most beneficial. Codex Chapters are about chosing the path that is most beneficial, and being adequately good at all of them. That does not mean that the specialised Chapetr will horribly fail in some situations where their path may not be that suitable. But it means that over a prolonged time, with several different campaigns and situations, the Codex Chapter will allways be able to adequately deal with the situation, while a specialised Chapter might fall on hard times occasionally.

 

 

As to the alpha leion way of fighting... No Ultra tactics mean nothing to them

Neither do Imperial Fists Tactics, World Eaters Tactics, Thousand Sons Tactics, Iron Warriors Tactics, etc. The point I was trying to make originally was that the Ultramarines Tactics are not the most anathema to the Alpha Legion tactics, because the Ultramarine tactics are more adaptable and flexible than those of most other Legions. What the Ultramarines do not use are underhanded tactics, so there is a discrepancy in code of conduct. But as far as tactics are concerned, the rigid and direct tactics of Perturabo, Dorn, Angron, and the like are much farther removed from the fluid battle tactics of the Alpha Legion than the Ultramarines' are.

[Brother Delias]

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I must respectfully disagree with you.

 

In that way, ultramarines are dogmatic and are very much rigid in their own regard, it is much the same way as religious zealots confomr to their own "holy" books when only dictating how to destroy other religions. in their case, the 'all rounder' approach does in factr make them weaker in many regards. Because of their "flexability" while they may defend a bastion, they defend it the SAME way each time, the static 100 man company broken up in the standard force orginisation, funny how the rulebooks are actually BUILT for that, but that aside. Non codex Imperial fists will defend it with large numbers of anti infantry/armor/AAA. The codex chapter that is up against the same odds will have the grater chance to fail. White scars defending the bastion? They would take the fight to the enemy, and have the spped behind them to be able to do so, not so with a codex chapter, they would be cut down at their own gates. Blood Andgels/Raven guard? They would take to the skies and rain death upon the enemy, again, having speed and the ability to go where the large part of an enemy force simply cannot go on their side... at the most with a codex chapter you MIGHT have three squads that can do that. Salamanders? Go ahead... assult them, turn into a BBQ and have your tanks get turned into slag by meltas. Each non standard force has HAD to adapt their way of fighting, and after 10.000 years of doing so, they are quite good at it... a codex force does not have this type of tenacity, as they are held under their own dogma to adhere to the "flexable" structure of 60 tacticals, 20 assault, and 20 devestators... Better than forces not held to that?

 

I think not...

[Candleshoes]

Legatus, I didn't mean conduct on the field of battle.

 

The Alpha Legion define what a war is differently than the Ultramarines, the ideals of war, how it can be waged, how it should be waged, who it can be waged on or by, what constitutes a battlefield, what constitutes allies, enemies, what constitutes a soldier, and what victory means. To compare how Guilliman and Alpharious wage war, in my opinion, show opposites.

[Legatus]

In that way, ultramarines are dogmatic and are very much rigid in their own regard, it is much the same way as religious zealots confomr to their own "holy" books when only dictating how to destroy other religions. in their case, the 'all rounder' approach does in factr make them weaker in many regards. Because of their "flexability" while they may defend a bastion, they defend it the SAME way each time, the static 100 man company broken up in the standard force orginisation, funny how the rulebooks are actually BUILT for that, but that aside.

This is inacurate for two reasons:

 

A. A Battle Company is usually supported by elements from the Veteran, Scout and Reserve Company. A typical strike force can easily consist out of 150 Marines of different squad types, where "only" the core Battle Company is the same. Compare that to Iron Hands clan companies, which fight independently of each other and without further support from Reserve companies. Or compare that to a Space Wolves Great Company, which while each being wildly different from each other, also fight largely independently and without any further support. In both these examples the force the Chapter would bring to bear would allways consist of the same units, no matter the situation, while a Codex force could be supported by Terminators, additional Assault Squads, additional Devastator squads, additional heavy tanks from the armoury, etc.

 

B. There is not "one way to defend a bastion". The requirements of the situations will differ wildly depending on the enemy that is expected, the type of the enemy forces (shock troops? siege troops?), the type of the own forces (Reserve company support? Terminators available? Tanks available? Air support?), whether there are time limits or crucial elements to consider, etc. There are thousands of possible scenarios, and each of those scenarios will require a slightly different approach. The Codex Astartes allows the Codex force to find the best possible approach for the situation at hand (as assessed by the commander).

The divergent force on the other hand is limited by what their own force consists of and by what type of warfare they specialise in. A White Scars force simply does not have a lot of options. They either have to utilize their mobility in some way, or, if that is not an option at all, they will have to fight severely under equipped for the job. A Codex force is expected to be able to perform in a wide variety of different tasks, and it can chose the approach that is promising the best results.

 

The Ultramarines rigidly follow a dogma. And that dogma is "allways use the most beneficial solution". That is not a restricting dogma.

 

 

Non codex Imperial fists will defend it with large numbers of anti infantry/armor/AAA. The codex chapter that is up against the same odds will have the grater chance to fail. White scars defending the bastion? They would take the fight to the enemy, and have the spped behind them to be able to do so, not so with a codex chapter, they would be cut down at their own gates. Blood Andgels/Raven guard? They would take to the skies and rain death upon the enemy, again, having speed and the ability to go where the large part of an enemy force simply cannot go on their side... at the most with a codex chapter you MIGHT have three squads that can do that. Salamanders? Go ahead... assult them, turn into a BBQ and have your tanks get turned into slag by meltas.

You seem to be suggesting that a Chapter's specific way of warfare, if conducted by them, will allways or at least generally lead to a better result than an allrounder Chapter using a way of warfare that is more suitable for the situation. I.e. in a siege situation, the Codex Chapter will use siege tactics, while the White Scars will just use their mobility again and thus perform better, since they are better at mobile tactics than a Codex Chapter is at siege tactics. Or in a situation calling for rapid assaults, the Codex Chapter will use rapid deployments, while the siege Chapter sets up position somewhere and waits for the enemy to come to them, again somehow outdoing the Codex Chapter simply by being so good at static warfare. I don't find that to be a very reasonable estimation.

 

 

Each non standard force has HAD to adapt their way of fighting, and after 10.000 years of doing so, they are quite good at it... a codex force does not have this type of tenacity, as they are held under their own dogma to adhere to the "flexable" structure of 60 tacticals, 20 assault, and 20 devestators... Better than forces not held to that?

 

I think not...

You seem to be trying to argue that a Chapter that fights one way for 10,000 years is not less flexible and less tactically diverse than a Chapter that fights using all ways for 10,000 years and uses a force composition that is intended to be able to deal with all situations. What if the enemy force does not want to engage the Marine forces and instead tries to evade them while sitll attacking human settlements? (like Dark Eldar or Night Lords forces might do) What good are the flamers and the meltaguns of the Salamanders then? Their lack of fast attack units will severely hinder the performance of the Salamanders in such a situation. You are saying that the Salamanders will find a way to adapt their specific way of war to such a situation. But that is not an advantage. They are forced to adapt the use of unsuitable resources and units to this condition because they simply lack the number of Speeders and Assault Squads to just employ a more mobile approach.

 

 

---

 

Candleshoes:

Legatus, I didn't mean conduct on the field of battle.

 

The Alpha Legion define what a war is differently than the Ultramarines, the ideals of war, how it can be waged, how it should be waged, who it can be waged on or by, what constitutes a battlefield, what constitutes allies, enemies, what constitutes a soldier, and what victory means. To compare how Guilliman and Alpharious wage war, in my opinion, show opposites.

But would that be so mcuh different from the views of, say, Dorn, Jonson, Fulgrim, etc? No doubt the Alpha Legion's methods were highly unorthodox. But in comparison pretty much all of the other Primarchs were using "conventional" ways of war, and were then merely employing different tactics, formations and combat doctrines.

[Candleshoes]

The Lovers and The Chariot, a toxic combination if there ever was one, should you follow Tarot.

 

There's as much nuance in the "conventional" ways of wars are fought by the Primarchs, as there are outside of the proverbial box. I get where you are coming from though, I just don't have to agree ;)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've always thought that the quintessential difference between the adaptability of the Ultramarines and the adaptability of the Alpha Legion came down to the actual existence of the Codex Astartes itself.

 

Ultras believe that the doctrines within the Codex will provide a tactical answer to just about any military situation the Chapter may find itself in. It has instructions on orbital assault, boarding tactics (offense and defense), black-navy tactics, siege tactics, mobile operations, operations in jungle terrain, in arctic terrain, in urban terrain, etc, etc. Whenever a "Codex" commander takes to the field, he simply consults the Codex to find out what has worked best in his particular situation in the past.

 

The Alpha Legion, on the other hand, doesn't bother conforming to the situation at hand. They want to stack the deck in their favor and actually change the situation before they have to commit forces to the battle. It's easier to fight a battle when you know, without any shadow of doubt, that you are going to win it quickly, cleanly, and with as few casualties as possible regardless of how the enemy fights.

 

Here's an example. If confronted with a siege situation, Ultramarines will check the Codex and see that they need to go through a logical progression of steps to secure victory. They'll dig trenches, bring up artillery pieces, knock down a portion of wall, then assault through the gap. Alphas, on the other hand, will keep their main forces clear of such a citadel while infiltration units sneak into the city. These infiltrators will bribe, blackmail, brainwash, psyk-condition, or just plain intimidate locals inside the citadel into helping them out. They'll sabotage roads and rail lines; steal or destroy armories, ammo dumps, and supply centers; assassinate or turn enemy officers; disrupt powerplant operations to cut electricity to key installations; and eventually assault the defenses from within while their main body assaults from without. Rather than batter through the defenses like the Codex Chapter, the Alphas will neutralize the defenses first, then simply walk through them.

 

One is bloody and violent and a fairly conventional method of warfare. The other requires tactical patience, an unconventional mindset, a willingness to conduct oneself "dishonorably," and a vast amount of faith in subordinates to do their jobs correctly without direct supervision or even the ability to communicate.

[Hellios]

One is bloody and violent and a fairly conventional method of warfare. The other requires tactical patience, an unconventional mindset, a willingness to conduct oneself "dishonorably," and a vast amount of faith in subordinates to do their jobs correctly without direct supervision or even the ability to communicate.

 

The Alpha Legion don't have a vast amount of faith in their minions... they just know what they were doing. If they sent in Ultramarines to do what they do and didn't supervise them that would be having a vast amount of faith. Faith is about belief and belief is irrelevant when you know. The alpha legion know and that is what makes them so special.

 

 

In one scenario there is one optimal way to defend a bastion. I couldn't comment on the Ultramarines abillity to do it. I doubt they can as I would imagine they lack the resources to do so... The same goes for any chapter I guess... However what the Ultramarines might over look is that you do not have one scenario unless you choose to only have one scenario and this is the strength of the Alpha legion that they have so many plans on the go that some of them will work and there is a good chance they will confuse the enemy. However any chapter that is specialised can turn its disadvantage into an advantage if they know what they are doing (granted in some situations it might not be possible). Find your weakness and your strength... determine what the enemies are strengths and weaknesses are and make a plan to use that knowledge to your advantage.

 

The strength of a true all rounder is that it has no real weakness, its weakness is that it has no true strength. So all things being equal if you can put your specialisation to use against an all rounder you should be able to win, the all rounders defense is to stop you from doing that.

[Lay]

Non codex Imperial fists will defend it with large numbers of anti infantry/armor/AAA. The codex chapter that is up against the same odds will have the grater chance to fail.

The Imperial Fists are a Codex Chapter. And since the Codex Astartes includes the teachings of Perturabo, among others, I'd say a Codex adherent Chapter would stand a good chance of succeeding.

 

Here's an example. If confronted with a siege situation, Ultramarines will check the Codex and see that they need to go through a logical progression of steps to secure victory. They'll dig trenches, bring up artillery pieces, knock down a portion of wall, then assault through the gap. Alphas, on the other hand, will keep their main forces clear of such a citadel while infiltration units sneak into the city. These infiltrators will bribe, blackmail, brainwash, psyk-condition, or just plain intimidate locals inside the citadel into helping them out. They'll sabotage roads and rail lines; steal or destroy armories, ammo dumps, and supply centers; assassinate or turn enemy officers; disrupt powerplant operations to cut electricity to key installations; and eventually assault the defenses from within while their main body assaults from without. Rather than batter through the defenses like the Codex Chapter, the Alphas will neutralize the defenses first, then simply walk through them.

 

One is bloody and violent and a fairly conventional method of warfare. The other requires tactical patience, an unconventional mindset, a willingness to conduct oneself "dishonorably," and a vast amount of faith in subordinates to do their jobs correctly without direct supervision or even the ability to communicate.

More importantly, the latter approach requires the enemy to be human at best and unsuspecting at the very least. Espionage and covert ops are specializations, much like siege warfare and hit-and-run tactics. They have their limitations and their feasibleness varies from scenario to scenario.

 

I think the 2nd edition Codex Chaos put it best: "Among the Traitor Legions the Chaos Space Marines of the Alpha Legion are renowned for their ruthless tactics and coldly efficient coordination."

These are the strengths the Legion can rely on in any given situation, much in the same way the Ultramarines can rely on the Codex.

[RapatoR]

One thing I like about Alpha Legion is nothing is sure about them, there were some recommendations about marks and force composition, but AL is known for doing "Using any means to achieve victory."

I will set an extreme example:

 

Why not to play AL as horde of Zerks with couple of Chosens? Chosens will represent true Legionnaires whose employed a horde of World Eaters and use them as a bait /cannon fodder?

 

Personally I play Alpha Legion using both C:CSM and C:SM switching from one to another depending on my mood.

 

By the way dont forget to visit Alpha Legion forum, where you can not only exchange ideas but also you can find there first version of our very own codex we made by ourselves and another playtester would be welcomed.

 

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Alpha_Legion_Forums/index.php?

[hummus]

this article came up recently on fritz website

http://saimhann.blogspot.com/2011/01/legio...n-tabletop.html

[Calacorm]

Hummus,

 

Good article, and it sums up what I was wondering in a cleaner manner. I will say, I had no interest in the Alpha Legion till I read that book. And the concepts on how they operate is fantastic.

 

And yes, I do feel that the 3.5 Chaos Codex you could make an army with that flavor portrayed in the book. Cause I feel kinda let down, after reading this book and comparing it to the current codex. Which made me wonder, how much "synergy" do the authors have with the game designers, as the two at present time dont mix.

 

If I wanted to make a pre heresy Alpha Legion, I think I would go with a counts as army, using the current space marine codex. But the main question is, more fluff related then game related then anything. What do the Alpha Legion do now? Are they still shadows, lurking around, striking, manipulating where ever?

 

Like, since the Heresy, what are the "Bad" things the Legion has been credited?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

They infiltrated and destroyed a Space Marine Chapter from within (I forget the name), and then there was the Hunt for Voldorius; Voldorius being an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince who acted very much against type for an Alpha (and the book was written quite atrociously throughout, for that matter).

[KaosRaptor]

They infiltrated and destroyed a Space Marine Chapter from within (I forget the name), and then there was the Hunt for Voldorius; Voldorius being an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince who acted very much against type for an Alpha (and the book was written quite atrociously throughout, for that matter).

I'm reading Hunt for Voldorius right now, and the aspect of the Alpha Legion using copious amounts of slaves/cultists instead of actual marines is right on the mark in my opinion. That said, Voldorius and the marines themselves seem to be to the contrary of the rest of the fluff. No stealth tactics involved from what I've seen yet, just brutality and intimidation, and at least one of the marines seems to worship the Dark Gods in some way. I'd rather not say anything else for those that haven't read it, but the AL could certainly be portrayed better.

 

Unless of course, the AL changed tactics between the Heresy and now, and I just haven't noticed...

Or maybe they just want us to think that?? B)