Some rumours regarding 40k

[Legatus]

How can you be effective if someone else has your playbook?

I know this whole thing is poppycock happy.gif but if the Alpha Legion got thier hands on the codex the Ultras and anyone following the codex would be in a world of hurt.

Someone might be very good at chess, but if ever someone else learned all the rules there are in chess, that chess player would be in a world of trouble. How could he ever beat someone who knew all of the possible moves? If the opponent knows the possible moves he will easily defeat the chess player as he will anticipate his every move.

[Guest Triszin]

i call blatant fanboism bs. this reaks of a tau fanboy from most of what i read, i had to stop after, "only reason why imperium doesnt collapse because of a (&**ton) of fire warriors attacking deep in imperium. can we just wipe out the tau? they have no place here in 40k, unless the next codex shows how Orwellian they really are.

 

i just wasted 20 minutes of my life i'll never get back.

[esinhorn]

How can you be effective if someone else has your playbook?

I know this whole thing is poppycock happy.gif but if the Alpha Legion got thier hands on the codex the Ultras and anyone following the codex would be in a world of hurt.

Someone might be very good at chess, but if ever someone else learned all the rules there are in chess, that chess player would be in a world of trouble. How could he ever beat someone who knew all of the possible moves? If the opponent knows the possible moves he will easily defeat the chess player as he will anticipate his every move.

 

You make a fine arguement there Legatus,I was,nt thinking chess,I was thinking Football

But you are of course correct The Ultra's problayy have 3-4 options for every rule so you cannot fake them out that way.

Codex brings Paper I bring Scissors, The Codex also has the audible option for Rock

[Legatus]

The Codex takes in to account agreat many factors. What kind of forces doe we have? What kind of forces does the enemy have? How is the environment? What do we need to accomplish? What do we need to deny to the enemy? All that has to be considered by the Commander using the Codex, and based on his judgement of the situation the Codex would advise a different approach. But there is another important aspect: What does the enemy know? Does he know we are here and are going to attack? Does he know what exact units we have, and how many? How much air support we have? If the opponent does not know that, a different approach might be possible than if the opponent would know all of these things.

Can the opponent use the rock, paper and scissor manouver, or is he currently impaired and cannot do the rock manouver? Does he know which manovers we can perform, and if possibly that we are impaired and cannot currently perform the scissor manouver? Etc.

 

For the enemy, if he was in the possession of the Codex Astartes, he would have to know exactly what the loyal Commander was aware of and how he would judge the situation. A lot of that can be arranged in an elaborate set up, but probably not all of it. I.e. if the enemy can set the stage and feed the loyalist commander intel he wants him to have, and if he knows exactly what kind of forces the loyalist commander is using, then he might be able to predict how he will first try to approach the situation. But if a loyalist force was to encounter the enemy by chance, without the enemy having planned for than and feeding the loyalist commander the information he wants him to know, it will be much harder to predict how he will first act.

 

Also, if the loyalist commander should learn of the opponent's possession of the Codex Astartes, that also drastically changes how he would approach the situation. What you expect the enemy commander to know of your forces and capabilities will alter your approach as well.

 

It is definitely not as simple as obtaining the Codex and suddenly having a huge advantage over Codex adherent Chapters. The enemy would still have to second-guess the loyaist Commanders actions. Some things will be obvious even without knowledge of the Codex, such as the loyalists trying to protect vital imperial assets, or trying to strike at the enemy's vital positions. When it goes more into detail it would require quite some effort and inteligence gathering to formulate an acurate strategy based on the expected actions of the loyalist Commander.

 

It is also not unheard of for loyalist Chapters to engage in battle, or Chapters fighting against recently turned renegades, who would also have knowledge of the Codex Astartes. It cannot really be said that any of those Codex using forces has a significant advantage over the other. Not even if one of them should switch to unorthodox tactics and would become "less predictable". (And really, in most cases the dismissal of the Codex Astartes doctrines would result in a loss of effectiveness, not a gain. At least if one assumes that the Codex Astartes is the powerful tool and inspired tome it is said to be.)

[Demonslayer]

I don't believe for one second if the Ultramarines enemies got there Codex then they are doomed. If that was true, they would of been dead along time ago. They just give their Codex out willingly and what of all those chapters that have gone renegade that used it.

 

I could even believe Roboute Guilliman giving the Codex to Chaos and telling them this is how they should fight :blush:

 

I'll be keeping an eye out for those rainbow coloured marines, anything running around looking like that must be bad news

[Grey Mage]

How can you be effective if someone else has your playbook?

I know this whole thing is poppycock happy.gif but if the Alpha Legion got thier hands on the codex the Ultras and anyone following the codex would be in a world of hurt.

Someone might be very good at chess, but if ever someone else learned all the rules there are in chess, that chess player would be in a world of trouble. How could he ever beat someone who knew all of the possible moves? If the opponent knows the possible moves he will easily defeat the chess player as he will anticipate his every move.

Your right legatus- they have a computer that does exactly this.

 

I hope it is the fall of Ultramar,I like that storyline the AL school the hell out of them because they have a copy of the codex too.

Which would make the Ultra's need to be more like the AL to survive.

 

It doesn't even make sense that the Ultramarines would have to break the Codex to survive. Seriously, what does that even mean? So because their homeworld and Primarch has been destroyed, they all of a sudden can't operate as normal Space Marines and have to change their method of war? Why?

 

It's likely just an Ultra-hater wish rather than anything substantial.

I could see it though- cut off from any supply base or recruiting centers, with perhap a strike cruiser and a handful of rapid-strike craft, theyd have to be very very careful doing anything.

 

But why would that prevent them from using the Codex? The Codex would help them find a way to take on more numerous foes with less resources so while I understand they will have to be careful etc I can't understand what rules they would have to break which are in the Codex.

 

You also dont understand what rules are in the codex period. No one does. Because no one has ever written it. So saying itll always lead you down the right path, youll always be able to follow it, is supported only by a lack of facts.

 

However, the simple fact that not all chapters DO follow the codex, or are divergent from it while mostly following it, does show there ARE in fact rules and guidelines one needs to follow. Since they exist, they can be broken. If there are rules, there are exceptions. Even the god-emperor wasnt always right.

 

Is that pill really so hard to swallow?

[esinhorn]

The Codex takes in to account agreat many factors. What kind of forces doe we have? What kind of forces does the enemy have? How is the environment? What do we need to accomplish? What do we need to deny to the enemy? All that has to be considered by the Commander using the Codex, and based on his judgement of the situation the Codex would advise a different approach. But there is another important aspect: What does the enemy know? Does he know we are here and are going to attack? Does he know what exact units we have, and how many? How much air support we have? If the opponent does not know that, a different approach might be possible than if the opponent would know all of these things.

Can the opponent use the rock, paper and scissor manouver, or is he currently impaired and cannot do the rock manouver? Does he know which manovers we can perform, and if possibly that we are impaired and cannot currently perform the scissor manouver? Etc.

 

For the enemy, if he was in the possession of the Codex Astartes, he would have to know exactly what the loyal Commander was aware of and how he would judge the situation. A lot of that can be arranged in an elaborate set up, but probably not all of it. I.e. if the enemy can set the stage and feed the loyalist commander intel he wants him to have, and if he knows exactly what kind of forces the loyalist commander is using, then he might be able to predict how he will first try to approach the situation. But if a loyalist force was to encounter the enemy by chance, without the enemy having planned for than and feeding the loyalist commander the information he wants him to know, it will be much harder to predict how he will first act.

 

Also, if the loyalist commander should learn of the opponent's possession of the Codex Astartes, that also drastically changes how he would approach the situation. What you expect the enemy commander to know of your forces and capabilities will alter your approach as well.

 

It is definitely not as simple as obtaining the Codex and suddenly having a huge advantage over Codex adherent Chapters. The enemy would still have to second-guess the loyaist Commanders actions. Some things will be obvious even without knowledge of the Codex, such as the loyalists trying to protect vital imperial assets, or trying to strike at the enemy's vital positions. When it goes more into detail it would require quite some effort and inteligence gathering to formulate an acurate strategy based on the expected actions of the loyalist Commander.

 

It is also not unheard of for loyalist Chapters to engage in battle, or Chapters fighting against recently turned renegades, who would also have knowledge of the Codex Astartes. It cannot really be said that any of those Codex using forces has a significant advantage over the other. Not even if one of them should switch to unorthodox tactics and would become "less predictable". (And really, in most cases the dismissal of the Codex Astartes doctrines would result in a loss of effectiveness, not a gain. At least if one assumes that the Codex Astartes is the powerful tool and inspired tome it is said to be.)

 

Legatus you had me at "The Codex..." :)

[MalachiOfRuss]

I am sure that in 10,000 years of fighting, at least one copy of the Codex Astartes has already fallen into the hands of Chaos. I mean, come on.

[Legatus]

Another thing to remember about the Codex is that it is not really one book, or even a couple of books. It can fill entire libraries now, or huge data banks, and a regular Space Marine is not expected to be able to memorize it in its entirety. On the one hand that makes it difficult to just "obtain" the Codex Astartes, and on the other hand that means that a traitor that was not already raised and trained with the Codex doctrines would have to put quite some effort and study into trying to grasp the entire doctrine enough to formulate viable strategies based on it. It would probably alter the way his own force operates quite a bit, out of sheer pragmatism and continued exposure to the Codex tenets.

 

 

Your right legatus- they have a computer that does exactly this.

Now if 40K battles took place on a 8x8 grid and consisted of 6 different types of units, allways equal on both sides, that would allow machine spirits to outwit any Astartes Commander.

[Captain Idaho]

Is that pill really so hard to swallow?

 

Not so much really, it just irks me in the literary sense of things really. I haven't really seen BL make it work with regards to the Codex (orthodox and breaking it) and the reasons raised by this fake rumour monger just doesn't seem deep enough to work.

 

I also still can't anticipate what rules need to be broken for them to surive, without being cheesey and make little sense. Look at the other Chapters in the galaxy and that all of them (released by GW) adhere to the Codex barring one, and even that one kinda fights in similar manners to the others (i.e. they drop assault, use blitz assaults with their vehicles etc) so I still fail to understand just what it is they need to break to survive.

[Grey Mage]

Is that pill really so hard to swallow?

 

Not so much really, it just irks me in the literary sense of things really. I haven't really seen BL make it work with regards to the Codex (orthodox and breaking it) and the reasons raised by this fake rumour monger just doesn't seem deep enough to work.

 

I also still can't anticipate what rules need to be broken for them to surive, without being cheesey and make little sense. Look at the other Chapters in the galaxy and that all of them (released by GW) adhere to the Codex barring one, and even that one kinda fights in similar manners to the others (i.e. they drop assault, use blitz assaults with their vehicles etc) so I still fail to understand just what it is they need to break to survive.

Well I agree completely- this guys stuff is fairly bogus and lacking in quality. I think someone else, with a good deal of time and research, could probly pull it off in a classy, sensible fashion.

 

Of course, deciding how they break it would require deciding what is there to be broken. I think that is the harder part to come up with in many ways... as Im sure the codex has information on how to better work as a force that has been battered, say a 6 man tactical squad, or broken off from ready resupply.

 

More likely what would happen is cut-off from a proper database of knowledge and severely understrength they would lose access to some of the information, and have to improvise entirely. This could lead to them becoming divergent if they were in such a situation for a prolonged length of time- say fighting a guerrilla war to reclaim the Ultramar System and its closest environs.

 

And your wrong- many of the space marine chapters are noted as being slightly, or even moderately divergant from the codex. Heck, the 4rth edition codex had an entire section devoted to demonstrating that and the 5th edition book continues to note it- white scars, salamanders, Iron Hands.... all spring immediately to mind. The simple fact that while they use the codex they are not 'as codex adherent' as the ultramarines or the black consuls means that there are things you can not do. Things that are different. Things that break the guidelines and/or rules of the codex astartes and still work.

 

Your right legatus- they have a computer that does exactly this.

Now if 40K battles took place on a 8x8 grid and consisted of 6 different types of units, allways equal on both sides, that would allow machine spirits to outwit any Astartes Commander.

 

Not even a machine spirit... just a PC. Machine Spirits are vastly more complicated it would appear- and can select target priority, track ammo use, and are capable of taking on Waaaghs without marine guidence with a great deal of success.

 

The Codex Astartes is, as you stated, vast. Few if any marines are going to know by rote every hallowed page- much like most bishops cannot quote the entire bible from memory. Now, naturally, as time goes on their knowledge will increase but just as naturally, over time, each astartes will better remember certain advice, certain forms of fighting, certain tactics. Having access to a complete copy of the codex would allow a skilled commander with plenty of time to study both the captain and his source material in order to predict his 'moves' on the battlefield and on campaign.

 

Back this up further with the temporal advantage that a chaos marine could gain access to *by using the flows in the warp to allow him more time to study in a shorter period of the commanders life* and the use of psychic predictions *wich are incredibly accurate from the right mouth* and yes, it could be done by a sufficiently skilled commander.

 

Of course, it happens all the time in the last millennium too. Prolonged wars, schools of officer training, or even just a proper understanding of psychology and a sharp eye for details could, and does, allow one person to predict anothers actions before they do them.

 

It can happen to an Ultramarines company as easily as it could to any other astartes formation.

[Legatus]

And your wrong- many of the space marine chapters are noted as being slightly, or even moderately divergant from the codex. Heck, the 4rth edition codex had an entire section devoted to demonstrating that and the 5th edition book continues to note it- white scars, salamanders, Iron Hands.... all spring immediately to mind. The simple fact that while they use the codex they are not 'as codex adherent' as the ultramarines or the black consuls means that there are things you can not do. Things that are different. Things that break the guidelines and/or rules of the codex astartes and still work.

We do know in what ways those Chapters are non-Codex. They either use a different organistaion for their Companies or they strongly favour certain tactics over others. And in none of those cases will non-compliance with the Codex automatically result in failure. The Codex will not provide the one and only approach that will allow a force to succeed. It will merely provide the most efficient and advantageous approach.

 

In a hypothetical situation where a Battle Company was about to engage a Death Skulls force of strength X and with Y amount of tanks or killa kans, the Codex might suggest that at least half of the Company should be equipped for an anti armour purpose while the rest maintains anti infantry weapons to combat the usual swarm of Ork warriors. One Force might decide to not use anti-infantry weapons and instead equip every squad with anti-tank weapons. In the following battle they will still have to aim their guns and hit the enemy, and they still have their boltguns to fire at the Orks and can fight them in close combat, so it is not unlikely that they will stil defeat the Orks. However, with the suggested amount of anti-infantry equipment they might have better been able to deal with the ork infantry while still having enough weapons to effectively deal with their vehicles.

 

 

Having access to a complete copy of the codex would allow a skilled commander with plenty of time to study both the captain and his source material in order to predict his 'moves' on the battlefield and on campaign.

This goes both ways, though. The Traitor Legions may not have inscribed their doctrines into a massive tome, but they all have certain doctrines they use none the less. So an Imperial Commander could study them and develope strategies to better combat them. Iron Warriors have to be tackled differently than Word Bearers, etc. And actually, that is one of the purposes of the Codex Astartes. Probably the most monumental part of it are descriptions and discussions of the past 10,000 years of military history.

[Grey Mage]

It will merely provide the most efficient and advantageous approach.

This is sheer hubris. There is without a doubt a vast amount of information available in the C:A, but on such a vast topic and correspondingly vast work there will still be gaps, and in some cases the information will be ensconced deeply within the material- a reference section only helps so much.

 

This goes both ways, though. The Traitor Legions may not have inscribed their doctrines into a massive tome, but they all have certain doctrines they use none the less.

 

Indeed- it does work both ways. The difference in this, and similar cases, is that the chaos commander tends to have all the advantages of time on his side. And how equally dogmatic they are depends on the group..... *shrugs*. Knowing that the Iron Warriors tend to do this or that in their sieges matters little if this group splintered off 5,000 years ago and has developed into teleporting assault specialists.

 

Example: The 1ksons invasion of Fenris. Didnt succeed, but they got alot farther than just about anyone else.

 

And of course, all of this is under the assumption that the codex is even available for reference. Time constraints- Ambush!- and availability -small force alone and cut off- may deny a marine this resource and force him to rely on memory and ingenuity.

[Legatus]

This is sheer hubris. There is without a doubt a vast amount of information available in the C:A, but on such a vast topic and correspondingly vast work there will still be gaps, and in some cases the information will be ensconced deeply within the material- a reference section only helps so much.

There will no doubt be limitations on to what detail the Codex can make suggestions, but in those cases where it does offer suggestions, I have no reason to doubt that they will be valid. The way the Codex is integrated into the fluff, having the Ultramarines be the most successful Chapter for 10 millennia, gives me a high degree of confidence in that. I am aware that not all GW authors feel the same way, though.

 

 

Knowing that the Iron Warriors tend to do this or that in their sieges matters little if this group splintered off 5,000 years ago and has developed into teleporting assault specialists.

That would probably be the case. But then that is not how GW material generally describes "the Iron Warriors". In Warhammer 40K, we have pretty much all factions fighting the same way for 10,000 years. It is not really realistic at all, but it is the setting.

[Grey Mage]

*spreads hands* Fair enough. And yes, Im perfectly sure the codex has valid suggestions- it is a masterpeice. Its the idea that it is a perfect reference book that is instantly available and the key to all success that I take issue to, not its validity is a powerful work or its value to a military commanders training.

 

And your right- they tend to give them another name now that theyre a new warband. *shrugs*.

[Legatus]

And yes, Im perfectly sure the codex has valid suggestions- it is a masterpeice. Its the idea that it is a perfect reference book that is instantly available and the key to all success that I take issue to, not its validity is a powerful work or its value to a military commanders training.

IIRC in the Space Marine (or could have been Adeptus Titanicus) rulebook the Codex Astartes was described not as much as a guidebook but more a discussion on historical battles and doctrine and was not "applied" to a situation but was merely studied by commanders to hone their mind and improve their military acumen. That was given as the reason for why the Codex was still as valid ten thousand years later, as it was not just some outdated practices that would be applied ten thousand years later.

 

In later sources the Codex is more often described as containing specific tenets that can be disregarded or broken. I personally assume the Codex describes how to effectively and efficiently conduct certain operations, from small unit actions to larger undertakings with more logistical considerations. So if a Battle Company was to encounter a tank heavy Ork force, the Codex would not as much tell the Commander to use anti armour tactics, instead the Commander himself would decide to employ anti armour tactics and the Codex would contain descriptions on how to employ partial/full anti armour attacks on different force size levels, and with varying degrees of support, probably also depending on the nature of the opposition.

 

I also do not think that using the Codex means automatic success, nor does not using the Codex mean an automatic failure. But it will generally (and after 10,000 years I can probably say empirically) improve the performance of a Chapter and have their operations and actions go more smoothely. I also do think that if the Codex makes suggestions, those suggestions are valid, bar some very unusual circumstances, and that dismissing the suggestions of the Codex is not generally a good idea.