LOUDERMAN Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Hey everybody, I've recently got the gumption to finally start building my Iron Warriors! They've always been my favorite traitor legion, but when the latest Codex: CSM hit the shelves it killed the fire for me. The legion didn't have any more special rules that set them apart from other leigions and I couldn't quite get the army the way I wanted it using the codex. Codex:CSM seemed too much like Codex:Chaos Renegades instead, so since then the plans have laid dormant. A new spark has gotten me going again, and my IW army will happen, but I'm debating on using Codex:Spacemarines over Codex:CSM for gameplay/theme purposes. So I came here to get a few ideas from the community. What units in Codex:SM would you see fitting in an IW army? Overall the loss of a CCW doesn't seem to hurt the style of the army, and i'm thinking Ironclad Dreads and Thunderfire cannons could work well in an IW themed list. Possibly a LRC? The Iron Warriors wouldn't be beyond stealing something that works! I've also thought of using a pair of basic Techmarines and using them to bolster cover, as the Iron Warriors would almost certianly try to fortify any position. I'm not so concerned about making a competitive list here, that will come later after I've hammered this bit out. I'm just asking for opinions on if I could use Codex:Spacemarines to flavor up my Iron Warriors. If anyone has any ideas with the CSM codex, please say something. I'm just want to gather some info, so it's all welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 It's legal to even use C:SM special characters as long as they are perfectly wysiwyg and to an extent look like the model that traditionally wields special rules or chapter tactics. How you paint and label them is totally up to you and falls under the counts as rule. This way, no one can complain that you're just codex hopping or whatever. In short you can say they're just codex marines in disguise. What does this mean? It means you can't field daemon princes, defilers and obliterator etc models as they are, in effect, representing different wargear and rules. However, for friendly games, do what you want. And if you throw caution to the wind and use a hellova lot of different model types as above as proxies you'll have to make sure they look pretty freakin' awesome to get any kind of approval from TOs. But as I've said in similar threads, awesome is a great leveler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOUDERMAN Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 It's legal to even use C:SM special characters as long as they are perfectly wysiwyg and to an extent look like the model that traditionally wields special rules or chapter tactics. How you paint and label them is totally up to you and falls under the counts as rule. This way, no one can complain that you're just codex hopping or whatever. In short you can say they're just codex marines in disguise. The plan is for the army to by WYSIWYG one way or the other, as I do play in the ocassional tourny. forgot about that little "counts as rule" And thats basically what' I'd be going for with Codex:SM. They'd be Iron Wariors in name, but would "count as" Codex marines. I should have mentioned that in the OP perhaps. Really the only things I'd miss out of Codex:CSM are two special weapons in Troop squads, and Chaos Terminators because I like the option of a power weapon every now and then, or a full 5 PF. (It annoys me that the Termie Sgt has to have a PW over a Fist...) The Defiler, while intensly awesome, wouldn't be in my list if I went with CSM. awesome is a great leveler. Yes, yes it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Antonius Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I'd say that using Codex:SM for the Iron Warriors would probably work awesomely (sp?). Lysander, who can bolster defenses, would look awesome in IW colors, especially if you made your own model for him. And as he is a captain, you could build a command squad, which could look alot like a Chosen squad with an apothecary for a sergeant. A Master of the Forge, who can also bolster defenses, would be a great addition to any iron warriors force. He could even have an entourage of thralls which would be an awesome modeling opportunity. As the Iron Warriors are usually depicted in fluff as abhoring mutation, you could have lots of bionics in your squads. You could add thunderfire cannons to your army, which would add techmarines who can bolster defenses. You could still use the Chaos Space Marine models I think, just play them as Codex Marines. The more I think about your plan, the more it makes me want to try it as well! I hope you go forward with your plan. Would love to see your work in the future. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulawful Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Lysander, who can bolster defenses, would look awesome in IW colors... This is heretical beyond measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 They've always been my favorite traitor legion, but when the latest Codex: CSM hit the shelves it killed the fire for me. The legion didn't have any more special rules that set them apart from other leigions and I couldn't quite get the army the way I wanted it using the codex. Codex:CSM seemed too much like Codex:Chaos Renegades instead, so since then the plans have laid dormant. For me it was the opposite. In the 3.5 Codex the Iron Warriors had the reputation of being over powered and being the obvious choice for power gamers, so even though I had allways liked their theme and paint scheme I would not have considered starting an army for them. When the 4th Edition Codex removed all the distinct rules, but improving the basic CSM squads with grenades and CCWs, at that point I did consider starting an Iron Warriors force (planned with using old school 2nd Edition miniatures), as now the stigma of power gaming was removed. The new daemon rules even got me coming up with distinct Iron Warriors versions of daemons, one variant being simply mechanical tentacles, arms or cables erupting from the ground and lashing or grabbing at the enemies, or some cyborg-zombies, where the Iron Warriors would have taken slaves and made them into cheap cannon fodder. What units in Codex:SM would you see fitting in an IW army? Vindicators fit well. Whirlwinds and Thunderfire cannons fit a little. Most vehicles would be ok. All the infantry is terribly inappropriate. These are just not Chaos Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoby Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I would suggest having a look at IA:10 when it hits the shelves, apparantly there is a siege army list in there with predator, whirlwind and vindicator squadrons and supposedly dreadnoughts as troops. Might be worth having a look at that to fit IW, can't realy say for sure how well it would fit since I've only seen a couple of lines mentioned about it in rumours but sounds promising to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mega_marines Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Huh, I have a friend named Alex who's doing the exact same thing as you. If you're different people, I can firmly say this: I personally feel the current Space Marine codex represents a cohesive and structured Iron Warriors force, Thunderfire Cannons and other items included. The current Chaos Space Marine codex best represents smaller warbands and other attached elements. As I discussed with Alex and my other friend Sebastien, Lysander and Kantor are the best characters to run an Iron Warriors force with despite the hysterical irony, and provide a terribly strong base for the army. Techmarines fill out the role of Warsmith's rather well too, or just as tech adepts. Plenty more fits as well. So in turn, each codex works well, but the loyalist codex works a bit better for a 'true' Iron Warriors force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Huh, I have a friend named Alex who's doing the exact same thing as you. If you're different people, I can firmly say this: I personally feel the current Space Marine codex represents a cohesive and structured Iron Warriors force, Thunderfire Cannons and other items included. The current Chaos Space Marine codex best represents smaller warbands and other attached elements. As I discussed with Alex and my other friend Sebastien, Lysander and Kantor are the best characters to run an Iron Warriors force with despite the hysterical irony, and provide a terribly strong base for the army. Techmarines fill out the role of Warsmith's rather well too, or just as tech adepts. Plenty more fits as well. So in turn, each codex works well, but the loyalist codex works a bit better for a 'true' Iron Warriors force. I also feel the same way about Lysander and Pedro. I feel stubborn suits Iron Warriors pretty well. As for units most units will be ok (as Iron Warriors are known to take or copy imperial equipment), what I would consider to be more important is what wargear and weapons you give them. Chappies and Land Speeders are what I wouldn't put in and I guess I wouldn't go heavy on fast attack choices compared to elites or heavy support. Assault marine (vanguard and so on) without jump packs could also be used as the first troops sent into the breach. All depends on what you want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mega_marines Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I also feel the same way about Lysander and Pedro. I feel stubborn suits Iron Warriors pretty well. As for units most units will be ok (as Iron Warriors are known to take or copy imperial equipment), what I would consider to be more important is what wargear and weapons you give them. Chappies and Land Speeders are what I wouldn't put in and I guess I wouldn't go heavy on fast attack choices compared to elites or heavy support. Assault marine (vanguard and so on) without jump packs could also be used as the first troops sent into the breach. All depends on what you want to do. Exactly. Some wargear should obviously be restricted to a degree. I would find it rather odd to see a Chaplain in the army unless you managed to make something incredibly appropriate such as Word Bearers present in the force, or an equivalent. Finding things for Count-As would be rather difficult, and suitably frowned upon unless you justify it accordingly without stretching it. A Master of the Forge is acceptable, as his Conversion Beamer. On another hand, a Land Speeder/Land Speeder Storm just doesn't fit, and neither do things such as Scout squads and Razorbacks(Post-Heresy vehicle). Obviously you have to use common sense when creating the army, and make it acceptable without pushing limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 take vindis , whirlis and thunders from sm dex , take ally IG and inq from inq dex . ready patern for counts as mixed army . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Ah, "Counts As" Chaos armies using 5th Edition Loyalist Marine Codexes. My hobbyhorse. Codex:CSM seemed too much like Codex:Chaos Renegades instead, so since then the plans have laid dormant. [...] A new spark has gotten me going again, and my IW army will happen, but I'm debating on using Codex:Spacemarines over Codex:CSM for gameplay/theme purposes. So, let's review. Codex: Chaos Space Marines includes every single thing that an Iron Warriors army should be able to have - Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators, Defilers, allied Berzerkers, and Traitor Legion equipment like be-combi-weaponed Terminators, and autocannons of both the generic and Reaper variety. The expanded nature of the army list, in fact, means that you can take every single thing in a 3.5 Iron Warriors army, sans-Basalisk, without even using a sub-list. This is, somehow, a "Renegades" list. Codex: Space Marines lacks those options, and is replete with post-Heresy weaponry and choices. Razorbacks, Land Raider variants, Land Speeders, Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields, Attack Bikes, infantry-portable Plasma Cannons and Multi-Meltas, Assault Cannons, Thunderfire Cannons, Drop Pods, and loads of other things. Even if one avoids these things, it is, in fact, impossible to recreate several Heresy-era formations in anything resembling a coherent form, and so you have to substitute things that are new. Things that the Iron Warriors have never had. Things, in fact, would be much more likely to exist in the armories of post-Heresy Renegades. This is the list people are now saying is the more "accurate" representation of the Iron Warriors. Really, guys? Really? Do we honestly need to twist outselves into these ridiculous logic pretzels in order to avoid admitting the obvious? It's okay to use a 5th Edition list if you want. That's fine. But please, please, please, everyone, stop pretending that the current Codex doesn't represent the Traitor Legions well. It does that just fine. It's just not a good Codex. That's something near on everyone can agree with. [Edited - Apologies for the conclusion of the original post, which was inappropriately grumpy and vicious. It's been that sorta day.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 The expanded nature of the army list, in fact, means that you can take every single thing in a 3.5 Iron Warriors army, sans-Basalisk, without even using a sub-list. To underline that point, this was the 3.5 list for Iron Warriors: HQ - Chaos Lord (also Daemon Prince), Sorcerer ELITE - Chosen (also Chaos Terminators), Possessed, Obliterators TROOPS - Chaos Space Marines, (Rhino Transport) FAST ATTACK - 0-1 Raptors, Chaos Space Marine Bikes HEAVY SUPPORT - Chaos Havocs, Chaos predator, Chaos Dreadnought, Chaos Defiler, Chaos Land Raider, 0-1 Vindicator, 0-1 Basilisk This is the army list Iron Warriors can use with the current Codex Chaos. Equivalent units are highlighted in green. Unsuitable units are highlighted in red. Units that were not included in the previous list but are compatible with their theme are in black. HQ - Chaos Lord, Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon ELITE - Chosen, Chaos Terminators, Possessed, Chaos Dreadnought TROOPS - Chaos Space Marines, Berserkers, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, Lesser Daemons, (Rhino Transport) FAST ATTACK - Raptors, Chaos Space Marine Bikes, Spawn HEAVY SUPPORT - Chaos Havocs, Obliterators, Chaos predator, Chaos Dreadnought, Chaos Defiler, Chaos Land Raider, Basilisk What changed is that the 0-1 Basilisk choice is gone, though Vindicators are now no longer limited to 0-1. Obliterators have been relocated to the Heavy Support slot, but Dreadnoughts have been relocated to the Elite slot in turn. The option to get a 4th Heavy Support slot is gone. There are several new units an Iron Warriors force could now chose, but a player is free to just ignore those units. In comparison, this is the Codex Space Marines army list. Again the equivalent units are highlighted in green. Unsuitable units are highlighted in red. Units that were not included in the previous list but are compatible with their theme are in black. HQ - Loyalist Chapter Master, Loyalist Captain, Loyalist Librarian, Loyalist Chaplain, Loyalist Master of the Forge ELITE - Loyalist Sternguard Veterans, Loyalist Terminator Squad, Loyalist Terminator Assault Squad, Venerable Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Ironclad Dreadnought, Loyalist Techmarine TROOPS - Loyalist Tactical Squad, Loyalist Scouts, (Rhino Transport), (Razorback Transport), (Drop Pod) FAST ATTACK - Loyalist Assault Squad, Loyalist Vanguard Veteran Squad, Land Speeder Squadron, Loyalist Space Marine Bike Squad, Loyalist Attack Bike Squad, Land Speeder Storm, Loyalist Scout Bike Squad HEAVY SUPPORT - Loyalist Devastator Squad, Thunderfire Cannon, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader, Land Raider Redeemer, Predator, Whirlwind, Vindicator Pretty much every Infantry unit is unsuitable by virtue of using the rules for loyal Space Marines, which have been distinguishable from the rules for Chaos Space Marines by a special morale rule ever since 2nd Edition. Imperial Space Marines are noble and dedicated and get a special morale rule to represent that. Chaos Marines are selfish and twisted, and do not get this rule. That was even sepcifically pointed out as being one of the key differences in the army lists of Imperial Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines in the introduction of the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines. The Codex Space Marines also lacks some of the trademark Iron Warrior units like Obliterators and monstrous Daemon Engines as represented by the Defiler. As such, no matter how nice a Thunderfire Cannon may sound for your Iron Warriors, the Codex Space Marines is horrible at representing them. The Iron Warriors (like all undivided Legions) are "Chaos Space Marines" first, and favouring heavy war machines second. You could have an army of only Chaos Marines but no heavy machines and still legitimately call them "Iron Warriors", but you could hardly call an army that included several heavy machines but no actual Chaos Marines "Iron Warriors". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Riorik Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Even as I sometimes fantasize about using Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Space Wolves for my Word Bearers because Codex: Chaos Space Marines is just so incredibly boring and because I could in ways make those other Codii work for me in a fluff fashion I can't help but admire the royal smackdown administered in the two posts above. Well done :devil:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOUDERMAN Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Lysander, who can bolster defenses, would look awesome in IW colors... This is heretical beyond measure. This is true, but also sort of what I was thinking on doing... Ah, "Counts As" Chaos armies using 5th Edition Loyalist Marine Codexes. My hobbyhorse. Codex:CSM seemed too much like Codex:Chaos Renegades instead, so since then the plans have laid dormant. [...] A new spark has gotten me going again, and my IW army will happen, but I'm debating on using Codex:Spacemarines over Codex:CSM for gameplay/theme purposes. So, let's review. Codex: Chaos Space Marines includes every single thing that an Iron Warriors army should be able to have - Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators, Defilers, allied Berzerkers, and Traitor Legion equipment like be-combi-weaponed Terminators, and autocannons of both the generic and Reaper variety. The expanded nature of the army list, in fact, means that you can take every single thing in a 3.5 Iron Warriors army, sans-Basalisk, without even using a sub-list. This is, somehow, a "Renegades" list. Codex: Space Marines lacks those options, and is replete with post-Heresy weaponry and choices. Razorbacks, Land Raider variants, Land Speeders, Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields, Attack Bikes, infantry-portable Plasma Cannons and Multi-Meltas, Assault Cannons, Thunderfire Cannons, Drop Pods, and loads of other things. Even if one avoids these things, it is, in fact, impossible to recreate several Heresy-era formations in anything resembling a coherent form, and so you have to substitute things that are new. Things that the Iron Warriors have never had. Things, in fact, would be much more likely to exist in the armories of post-Heresy Renegades. This is the list people are now saying is the more "accurate" representation of the Iron Warriors. I agree with a lot of this really. If I go with Codex:SM I will be missing things I’d like to include. Allied berserkers and Chaos Termies will be missed sorely, as will a few chaos vehicle upgrades. And I have a massive stiffie for Autocannons, which is another thing that I’ll miss. But there are several things in the SM codex that I’m convinced Iron Warriors would have copied or straight up stole. Man portable MultiMeltas and maybe even Plasma Cannons I can easily see. I could easily make my own version of a DreadClaw assault ship for drop pods, or just use normal pods for a tourney (If I even want to run them in this list). The land Raider would most likely be a standard pattern, even though I prefer the Crusader, and Skimmers and storm shields don’t fit theme, so they would be dropped/avoided. The assault cannon, while awesome, I never really considered in this list in favor of H-flamers and multi-meltas. But please, please, please, everyone, stop pretending that the current Codex doesn't represent the Traitor Legions well. It does that just fine. It's just not a good Codex. That's something near on everyone can agree with. This is also part of the reason I started this thread really. I know the current codex isn’t that competitive standing next to the current SM codex, and the CSM codex can pull off any of the original Legions. There a lot of things I’ll miss from either book really. Honestly I didn’t think many people would have thought of the idea of using Codex:SM for CSM. The Iron Warriors (like all undivided Legions) are "Chaos Space Marines" first, and favouring heavy war machines second. You could have an army of only Chaos Marines but no heavy machines and still legitimately call them "Iron Warriors", but you could hardly call an army that included several heavy machines but no actual Chaos Marines "Iron Warriors". ATSKNF is one of my main isssues with using Codex:SM. Stat wise, both loyalist and CSM near identical. I guess I could see ATSKNF working, but combat tactics would have to be replaced by Stubborn by using P-didy-K or Lysander. Aside from these rules (and combat squads) you’re really only missing the marks of chaos and a chainsword. I did think about using makrs of chaos to represent Bionocs or additional eqipment however. I’d be using CSM models for most of this army, and the remainder would be heavily converted loyalist stuff. I can't help but admire the royal smackdown administered in the two posts above. Well done :D. No kidding! But a lot of valid points were raised, and I hope I’ve at least sort of addressed them. Either way they've spawned a few more ideas. I can tell you right now, even if I decide to go with Codex:SM (pretty likely at this point) I’ll play at least a few games using CSM codex. I just want to thank everyone who commented. I’ve got a lot of ideas, thoughts, and concerns for some of the models I’m planning, but again Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 ATSKNF is one of my main isssues with using Codex:SM. Stat wise, both loyalist and CSM near identical. I guess I could see ATSKNF working, but combat tactics would have to be replaced by Stubborn by using P-didy-K or Lysander. I think it should be more of an issue. The extra CCW is not what distinguishes a traitor Marine from a loyalist. They only just got that with the current Codex (previously they allways had to chose between a boltgun or a CCW, which loyalists could get in the 4th Edition Codex via a Chapter trait). Combat Tactics is not what distinguishes a loyalist from a traitor. The loyalists only just got that with the current Codex. As the new Codices for the factions are released, some details of equipment or special rules might get changed or updated, and it would be inaccurate to define the difference between the two factions on such rules. But one rule that has allways distinguished loyalists from traitors is the morale special rule ("allways" for me being since 2nd Edition, where I started). "The following rules* apply to all Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Space Marine Characters (...). Note that Chaos Space Marines do NOT benefit from the special rules for Break tests** which apply to normal, loyal Space Marines." 2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 28 "A Chaos Space Marine army is very similar to a normal Space Marine army: the bulk of its troops are elite and very tough, they wear excellent armour and are armed with a variety of devastating weaponry. The only real weakness of a Chaos Space Marine compared to his Imperial counterpart is that he has a (very sensible) desire to preserve his own skin and therefor does not benefit from the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule that prevents loyal Space Marines from running away." 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 2 (Introduction to the Codex) *The text refers to the 'Rapid Fire' special rule, which was a Space Marine special rule that the Chaos Marines shared. **The 'Break Test' rule was the 2nd Edition's equivalent of the 'ATSKNF' rule that was introduced in 3rd Edition as a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Darkshade Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Lysander, who can bolster defenses, would look awesome in IW colors... This is heretical beyond measure. I can understand the desire to help one with the hobby. And your logic is sound and legit. *insert fluff nut* But by the gods man, your a Fist. The most rooted and hated bitter rivals of all the minons of the corpse god, to the Sons of Perturabo. There is no Legion your kind hates more the Iron Warriors. Least you not forget the embarrasment to your chapter at thier hands at the Iron Cage. To even suggests such a thing as to take the doctrines of the Fist and use them for the Iron warriors.....Ohh now the might have fallen to the taint of chaos. Were I to be a follower of your maggot ridden god I would have subjected you on the spot to a thousand year crusade, but thankfully I am not. So all I can say to you now is. Welcome to the fold brother. All Hail Chaos! *exit stage left* Yeah I know....*hangs head* but I had to. Call it a momentary fluff insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOUDERMAN Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 I'm aware ATSKNF is what really distinguishes CSM from loyalists, and its one of the larger gripes I have about using Codex:SM. But in the end I can still see some chaos marines fighting in a manner as befitting the ATSKNF rule through nothing but bitter hatered and rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 The only real weakness of a Chaos Space Marine compared to his Imperial counterpart is that he has a (very sensible) desire to preserve his own skin and therefor does not benefit from the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule that prevents loyal Space Marines from running away."[/i]3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 2 (Introduction to the Codex) ...Which explains why so many of them are either Fearless or re-roll morale tests. Chaos Marines may not care about civilians or other such Loyalist trash, but they have a lot of hatred for pretty much anything else out there, even more so for Imperials, and a desire to earn the favour of the Gods or die trying. Chaos has evolved since then from being petty raiders who only care about their own skin to a force that will do whatever it can to destroy the Corpse-God. Are they steadfast against their enemies in the same way as a Loyalist? No, but they won't leave without a fight. Personally, what I'd love to see implemented is an idea we came up with for a Night Lords codex, in that all CSM have Fearless when fighting an Imperial force, but the Imperial player can choose to play another game turn, as the CSM refuse to withdraw, intent on killing as many of the Imperial scum as they can, even if it kills them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 ...Which explains why so many of them are either Fearless or re-roll morale tests. Chaos Marines may not care about civilians or other such Loyalist trash, but they have a lot of hatred for pretty much anything else out there, even more so for Imperials, and a desire to earn the favour of the Gods or die trying. Chaos has evolved since then from being petty raiders who only care about their own skin to a force that will do whatever it can to destroy the Corpse-God. Are they steadfast against their enemies in the same way as a Loyalist? No, but they won't leave without a fight. Perhaps that is why Chaos Marines have a higher Leadership value to begin with and are thus less likely to retreat in the first place. Loyalists on the other hand will never entirely abandon their comrades and will try to stay and fight even in the face of great odds, where others (with the same Ld who just failed their test) would not expect to survive and would try to fall back to a safer position. Also, as you pointed out, entering in pacts with the dark gods may grant certain Morale benefits. Chaos Marines can more easily shurgg off and laugh at the amount of carnage inflicted around them, but when it eventuelly is too much they will not sacrifice themselves for their Lord's agenda. Loyalists on the other hand are slightly less battle hardened and can take slightly less stress (which is still much more than Mortals usually take), but will try to pull through even in the most dire of situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Well, you and I have always disagreed over this, and while I can definitely see your point, I don't think it should entirely rule out the possibility of ATSKNF for Chaos. I'm not saying CSM should get the rule in a codex, hell no, I just think that if an army can be entirely comprise of Fearless models in its own codex, then ATSKNF isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination. Just a different sort of Fearless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Not quite, if memory serves, ATSKNF doesnt kill marines for their standing their ground, fearless does... (enter the biggest gripe I have for horde armies) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I know. I merely meant that ATSKNF is another sort of "fearless". Probably should have typed it that way the first time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 But please, please, please, everyone, stop pretending that the current Codex doesn't represent the Traitor Legions well. If AL is identical to WB which are identical to IW which are identical to NL then its a bad codex for legion[besides it is not just us who told that the dex is bad for chaos legions GW said that it "doesnt represent legion forces well" ] . And when after that one tries to play a bit PMs or a PM/zerker mix and find out that there is close to non game play difference between thoes and the undivided legions then the dex becomes double bad for legion forces. It is easier to make an IW siege force with the loyalist dex then with chaos dex , just like it is easier to make a NL army with BA . If someone wants to do it because he is bored of the crap Gav dex , it is legal and he can do it . "The must be painted the proper way to get rules" ruling died with 4th ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 If AL is identical to WB which are identical to IW which are identical to NL then its a bad codex for legion Or maybe the player who creates the same army for each of those legions just does not give a :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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