Captain Denaro Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 In my local club league this month I have to fight both an Ork army and an Imperial Guard with the same 1250 point list. The Guard I know will be tank heavy and will sit back and bombard me with Masters of Ordnance also. Whereas the Orks will be transport heavy and be itching for close combat. Individually I think I would have a chance, but having to build a list to fight both is going to cause me problems against these 2 highly specialist foes. My initial thought would be to go for an elite list with tac and assault termies, sternguard and dreadnoughts possibly with a couple of librarians or MotF. The downside will be even less models against these hordes. Another alternative would be to simply "give up" against 1 and aim to beat the other, hoping to scrap a draw also. Or I could just put out a balanced list. From experience though, I get the sense that I'll end up getting thrashed in both games. Any advice would be great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Balanced list will do fine against both. MM/HF Speeders, F/MM Rhino Tacs, Rifleman Dreads, AC/HB Preds etc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2608322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cretheus Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 i find missile launchers and as many blast weapons as you can get and bolter fire help, you need to shoot horde armies will your rapid fire as much as you can and try an keep away from assaults until you wittled the bigger squads down. i also find vindicators alway win the points back, but i also hear other players talk about using whirlwinds. you will find its a battle of atrition above anything else you just need to lay down more fire power than they can, hope this helps could give more advice if you had any lists to show us so we could go more indepth with how to help my brother Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2608323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Denaro Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 I know I'm moving into the realms of the Army List Review forum but this is what I was thinking of; Librarian with Vortex and Machine Curse (to combat the multitude of vehicles I expect) (100 pts) Tactical squad x 10 - flamer, multi-melta, combi-plasma, melta-bombs, Rhino with dozer blades (225 pts) Tactical squad x 10 - flamer, missile launcher, combi-melta, power weapon, melta-bombs, Rhino with dozer blades (240 pts) Dreadnought with ccw and Plasma cannon (I have no other variant) (115 pts) Land Speeder - Assault cannon, heavy bolter (90 pts) Land Speeder - multi-melta, heavy flamer (70 pts) (again I have no other variants) Predator - autocannon and heavy bolters (85 pts) Vindicator with siege shield (125 pts) Total cost 1050, so that leaves me with 200 points to spend. I could use this to upgrade the librarian to an epistolary or storm shield I suppose? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2608423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 For winning against orks, you're going to need the ability to annihilate all their transports before they get anywhere near you. This entails Double Autocannon Dreads, Typhoon Speeders, and maybe a Land Raider as a center piece you-can't-kill-me tank. While the dreads and speeders are relatively cheap and easy to fit in multiples of, LRs are going to be unrealistic. However, for winning against a vehicle heavy shooting IG list, you're going to need to get up in their grill as quickly as possible with as little exposure to return fire as possible. Massed tactical squads with minimum upgrades in rhinos should suffice in the match-up against orks, but Guard are going to require a different approach... literally. 1250 pts "Two for One!" HQ Khan: Moondrakkan - 205 pts Troops Biker Squad: 8 Bikes, Mmelta Abike - 265 pts Biker Squad: 8 Bikes, Mmelta Abike - 265 pts Biker Squad: 8 Bikes, Mmelta Abike - 265 pts Elites Dreadnought: 2x TLAC - 125 pts Dreadnought: 2x TLAC - 125 pts For speed orks, you should stick to SOP. Light up those trukks, melt the wagons next, and speed around the board plinking with max range bolter shots. If you absolutely have to assault, make sure that you focus your assault, hitting one weakened squad with all your remaining bikes, winning that combat, then getting back out and away from other nearby orks. Against IG, this list comes into its own. Without unnecessary upgrades, you have a lot of fast assaulters coming in from reserves, outflanking and lighting up the sides and rear ranks of the IG formation. You ideally want to be in assault the moment you hit the table, which is possible given the 18" assault radius bikes have. If you can't, then you're turboboosting, looking to get into combat the following turn. If your opponent brings the Master of the Fleet, then you're unfortunately deploying, exposing yourself to fire from the IG army. If you get first turn (which you want, even in objective missions), then you're turboboosting first turn, getting into position to assault. You're also most likely combat squadding everyone unless it's a kill points mission just to become that much harder to kill. If you get second turn, then Reserve and pray for good dice rolling on your reserves. While I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to field the exact list above, you want to stick to the concept I present, which is Mobility and Firepower. This is a situation where Durability has to take a back seat because durability brings a hefty cost that you can not afford. (edit: gaff... sentence in there was from the prototype list before thinking about bikers...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2608505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 In your original list above - A simple tweak: Tactical squad x 10 - plasma gun, multi-melta, combi-flamer, melta-bombs, Rhino Tactical squad x 10 - melta gun, missile launcher, combi-flamer, power weapon, melta-bombs, Rhino I find dozer blades are purely situational. No need unless you have so much terrain you feel the need to go through it constantly. As for the flamer switch - vs a IG mech list you need to be able to shoot at vehicles constantly. Vs Ork hordes you will only get to use that flamer once.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2608686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Denaro Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Cheers for the replies. I've taken what I can but haven't Khan, enough bikes or any dakka dreads to implement Spartans list. This had made me realise that although i have nearly 6000 points worth my force is in many ways quite limited! What I've come with now is as follows; Librarian with TDA Tactical squad - melta gun, missile launcher, power weapon, combi-melta, melta-bombs and Rhino Tactical squad - plasma gun, multi-melta, combi-plasma, melta-bombs, Rhino Landspeeder with hvy bolter and assault cannon Landspeeder with hvy flamer and multi-melta 5 bikers - power weapon, plasma gun, melta gun and multi-melta Attack bike Predator with autocannon and sponson hvy bolters Vindicator with dozer blades Any thoughts on this would be a great help, especially on tactics which is what my original post was about. That leaves 55 points which I could spend on hunter killer missiles or a deathwind launcher or 2 and change the rhinos to drop pods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2613919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I highly suggest you take an extra plasma gun in the biker squad. If you don't have the option to switch it out, then I suppose you can just stick to the twin-linked bolter for engagements with orks. Put your librarian on a bike instead of TDA. Right now, he has no where to go. Are those the only land speeders you have? I'd take all MM/HF speeders. When you're playing against orks and you fail to take down battlewagons quickly, don't be afraid to sacrifice your speeders to slow them down. Turbo them to right in front of the wagon. This makes your opponent face a choice: Either tank shock and face the chance of just not moving at all, or move around the speeder, slowing down and ignoring the speeder (They have to stay 1" away at all times, meaning that you can shave off 4", maybe even 5" off their movement), or they deploy their weapons and cargo, stopping wholesale for at least 2 turns and being a non threat for 3 turns (1 turn disembark, shoot, charge, open to shooting. 1 turn reembark and move, ready to engage main force on turn 3). When the speeder costs 80 points, this is a hefty investment, but if the speeder's 60 points, then it's slightly lighter on you. Also remember that it's not always good to close in when facing IG. Gunlines and relatively immobile tank lines are ripe for close combat. Chimera Melta vet spam is NOT ripe for close combat. This is actually the time to keep away and shoot for your life. Stun/immobilize/destroy the chimeras from range, cook the Vendettas and Hydras, then go to town on the vets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2614239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Denaro Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 That's the best I can do with the bike squad. The only other model I have on a bike is a Chaplain but I'm keen to keep the Libby for his Machine Curse and vortex powers. Definitely going to expand my biker force now though. I was thinking now of combat squading the missile launcher squad and putting them into a razorback with the librarian? I would have to remove the TDA though which isn't ideal. My idea for the speeders was for the MM/HF to look for side/rear armour shots, while the AC/HB harries infantry. The IG I know will be very tank heavy, mostly with Leman Russ's so that's why I've kept the vindicator. For the Ork list the hope would be that the vindicator will take out wagons then the predator batter the squad inside. Also that's all I have in terms of speeders - they're the original 1st edition RT models that have been repainted and reglued so often that the weapons might as well be welded on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2614486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
newach Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 1250 pts "Two for One!"HQ Khan: Moondrakkan - 205 pts Troops Biker Squad: 8 Bikes, Mmelta Abike - 265 pts Biker Squad: 8 Bikes, Mmelta Abike - 265 pts Biker Squad: 8 Bikes, Mmelta Abike - 265 pts Elites Dreadnought: 2x TLAC - 125 pts Dreadnought: 2x TLAC - 125 pts I would drop Khan and take a regular captain with a relic blade. Much cheaper and harder hitting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2614499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Any Whirlwinds? They are good against both armies. Also Land Speeder Typhoons are golden. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2616859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Denaro Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Unfortunately neither. The league is strictly WYSIWYG. I've ordered more bikes and a LS Typhoon so won't be caught do unprepared again! I'm going to stick with what I have. Hopefully get one game played tomorrow and the other next Saturday. I'll let you all know his I get on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2617750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Denaro Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Didn't get a game played today, then was hit with a bomb-shell! The Ork player has dropped out and been replaced by Tyranids. Don't think this will cause Me to have to alter too much but at least I've another week to look at. Also my LS Typhoon and extra bikes should have arrived by then which will give me more variety. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2619059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazytoad Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Captain Denaro my Nids look forward to facing you :pirate: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2619331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 In this case, I'm preaching S8+ AP3 or better. Missile Launchers will be nice against the bigger bugs. Some scattered heavy flamers will also help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2619802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Any idea what sort of army the nid player takes? Cause you could field an army that'd be good against Tyranid Warriors etc and end up facing a gaunt swarm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2620320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Denaro Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Crazytoad - what sort of 'nid army will I be facing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2621629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazytoad Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Haha that would be telling :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2621898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hah, well as a Nid player, rapid firing plasma guns are good at killing my Monstrous Creatures + Missile launchers are good at insta-killing warriors, who cost around 40 points each. Synapse is a weakness, not a strength, if you get the chance to take down that lone zoanthrope pretending to be fire support, do it. Remember that Nid armies generally come in waves, the quick ones followed a turn or two later by the bigger ones. Focus on killing the quick ones if you can. Oh, and a hive tyrant lets you use outflank, so stay away from the edge of the board if possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2621940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 What MagicMan says is pretty much spot on. Missile launchers are especially effective. You either heavy frag for killing the little bugs, or krak which will knock wounds on the MCs and instant kill Warriors and other Warrior sized monsters. I can see Typhoons being much more valuable against Nids, and if they stay far enough away they only really have to worry about Tyrannofexes, and can knock hordes, Warriors and MCs down easily with their range of weapons, while outpacing the combat monsters. Rule of thumb, if its Gaunt sized, bolters, flamers and frag missiles. If its Warrior sized, then assault cannons, autocannons, and missile launchers, lascannons, melta. And if its an MC, then missile launchers, plasma, melta, lascannons. Knock out the synapse, and watch the horde not do much else. Also, stay in your vehicles, and use the top hatch to fire out of. Only disembark if your sure you'll wipe the squad out with no retaliation. Also, watch out for Hive Guard. Lovely models, and an awesome statline that allows them to shoot at things they can't see and negate cover saves unless their target is in cover or has a special rule. Plus a S8 assault 2 weapon means they will take out your vehicles when in range, which is their weakness as its the same range as a boltgun. Also remember that they cannot shoot round cover if they're lurking, so try and force them out of synapse if you're trying to deal with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2626449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Denaro Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 Well brothers I want to thank you all for your guidance. Unfortunately I had to go dark for a while there, as my 'nid opponent infiltrated this site and had the good grace to declare himself. Thanks Crazy for your honesty. So I played both games today - won 1 and drew 1 so very pleased. The list I ended up with was; Khan on moondrakken 5 bike squad with melta gun and power sword 3 bike squad with plasma gun and melta attack bike 10 man tactical squad with plasma, combi-plas and missile launcher Razorback with hvy bolter, storm bolter and HKM 2 Landspeeder Tornado - 1 with hvy bolter & assault cannon. The other with hvy flamer and melta Landspeeder Typhoon Vindicator Predator with autocannon and hvy bolter with HKM The 'nid game was annihilation. At the end of turn 5 we both had 2 VPs (if I'd managed to kill his last genestealer I'd have had 3 and therefore won). However thankfully the game ended there 'cos otherwise he'd have made a mess of me in turn 6. So that was a lucky draw. Very pleased as I'd made little impact on his force. The second game was against the tank heavy guard force. Mission was Capture & Control. I got turn 1 and only set up my tactical squad on my objective. My opponent proceeded to steal initiative and the squad was subjected to 2 turns of bombardment from his whole force. Poor decision on my part leaving me with 1 badly shell shocked trooper left. My outflank rolls brought all but 1 unit on and I proceeded to demolish his force bit by bit. Game went to turn 7 at which point his last squad broke off the table, leaving me with a maximum 1250 kill points to c320. Pretty comprehensive Anyway, thanks again for all your advice. Especially against the guard, outflank worked perfectly along with a few uncharacteristically lucky dice rolls. Next games are 1500 points. One I know will be Dark Eldar, not sure about the other yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2638997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie13x Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 He did well, this nid list hammered my chaos, and then he went on to beat the guard also! was a good day for you wasnt it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2657903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Denaro Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Welcome to the forum Wolfie. I was pretty pleased, especially after the last time I played Jer since he totally annihilated me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2662784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
death_incarnite Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 i realise that you have already played your games but for future thoughts i found two tricks work especially well in your condition. 1. have a unit of 5 scouts w shotguns, power sword, combi melta, and melta bombs come in with a landspeeder storm with multi melta, scout move will bring you up close and if you get turn one then they can jump out and go tank hunting or shotgun and power sword a annoying unit (works a lot better if you have 2 groups) 2. 10 stern guard w combi weapons drop pod in. if ig 10 combi meltas, if nids 10 combi flamers. all come in on your turn one and initial guidance system makes sure you get right up there. also i employ both of these and have become infamous for crippling the enemy on turn one. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2663747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 It depends on playstyle, tactics and army composition death_incarnite. Alpha strike units may be good and work well for you, but some people, including myself aren't fans of suicide squads and tactics. It's a solid idea, and one that can be amazing if you pull it off, but if everyone doesn't do it doesn't mean they haven't seen it, it's just that they don't like it :D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218757-best-list-for-fighting-orks-and-guard/#findComment-2664097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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