why do wolf priests not grant feel no pain

[masterchief4312]

just wondering why wolf priests dont grant feel no pain to the squad but regular apothecaries do. arent wolf priests supposed to be chaplains and apothecaries all in one?

[the jeske]

because you can take 4 HQ.

[Orphus]

^^ and that's why the Wolf Priests can't have nice things :) such as granting fnp...

[Lord Ragnarok]

As the jeske is unclearly trying to explain, it is probably a balancing issue. In the end none of us really knows unless they have received information directly from the developer (Phil Kelly).

 

These types of threads are prone for trolling and flames. Let's keep the comments informative, clear, and helpful.

[Gerwulf]

You are right, fluff-wise Wolf Priests should be apothecaries and should give FnP to a unit.

 

The balancing argument is kind of weird in my opinion.

Blood Angels can take 3 Sanguinary Priests per Elite choice. So potentially they could take 9 independant characters that creat a 6" bubble of FNP AND furious charge. So not only can they join any squad they want, they even give those USR to anybody within range. They even can take jump packs, bikes or terminator armour.

 

Yes, they only have one wound, yes they don't have a 4++, yes they are still IC which can be picked out in CC...

 

Another argument I read on the forums is that the Apothecary is restricted to the Command Squad, while a Wolf Priest could join any squad he wants. This is believed to be "overpowered" and considered to be the reason why WP don't give FNP. Well, that was before the BA codex came out and as mentioned above, Sanguinary Priests can join any unit they want.

 

I personally don't think Wolf Priests would have been too overpowered if they had been allowed to give their units FNP.

Although they probably would have had to be made more expensive. Or even an upgrade would have been fine (i.e. narthecium)

 

What I feel that happenes is that there were just two different authors at work. One felt he had to restrict FNP for a more balanced codex, while another felt that it doesn't unbalance the codex. That or Phil Kelly wasn't aware of the dual nature of the Wolf Priests when he wrote the Codex, which I highly doubt.

 

Please bear in mind, I'm not trying to flame. I think, despite that a 6" bubble of FNP is really strong, the BA codex is not necessarily unbalanced because of it.

 

Edit: I really wish that more GW staff (i.e. codex or BL authors) were as approchable as ADB and would share their reasoning behind their work. Yes, I'm probably a bit too blue-eyed and they would have to suffer through a lot of flaming and abuse...

[Lord Ragnarok]

Yes, I'm probably a bit too blue-eyed and they would have to suffer through a lot of flaming and abuse...

This.

 

Enjoy ADB while you can :P

[Skarvald the Troll-faced]

They should have turned it into an "equipment" item: Belt of healing potions, etc.

Or if they were afraid that Space Wolves were encroaching Blood Angels turf.. Make it a Saga!

[Wysten]

Thing is, BA is designed to do a entirely different thing then space wolves, as 5th ed codexes are designed to be equal against eachother.

 

Space Wolves is designed to be a different, more barbaric but well rounded space marine chapter. It can do shooting or melee pretty damn well as we are designed to be reliable through and through. While we often do well as melee, our functionality is reliablity, something that can be built into our melee and shooting through out our entire list. We may not have some of the benfits of being codex (option to take heavy weapons in our mainline squads to effectively mult-melta bunker.

 

Blood Angels meanwhile is a different package. They are codex marines with a twist toward melee, they focus on mobility, jetpacks and winning the assualt phase with shooting directly supporting that. But what would give them the edge over space wolves in melee combat? After all, we can counter attack and have the same number of attacks as their specialist soldiers, and we all know that anything that is not a special or heavy weapon will never be reliable at killing anything quickly, so furious charge alone probably won't make that great deal of difference to warrent the use of that codex.

 

Enter the Sang Priest bestowing it's Furious Charge and Feel no Pain and our Wolf Priests don't. Blood Angels assualt squads, vanguard and verious other units rely on feel no pain to give their formations incredable duriability and make them more reliable to make up for the price rises present through much of their codex. This allows their fast moving jet troops to remain a valid threat and weather the shooting that they are likely to endure in the process, allowing them to make up for their smaller unit size by shurgging off shots. Space Wolves don't need that kind of advantage because they do alot well already to make them formidable all round for no real cost as we are one of the best codexes.

 

Feel no pain on a mass of blood claws, Swift Claws or Sky Claws would not be fair. Space Wolves are generally cunning warriors, BA are tampered with the curse of their primarch (complete madness in the heat of battle.) and the only chapter that can bear that army wide perk would be the pyschotic Dark Eldar, hence feel no pain should be used carefully. Medics in command squads, Lone Wolf and so fourth. Isolated cases rather then something that can be bestowed to the army as a whole.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

We all know that WPs fulfil the roles of Chaplain and Apothecary.

 

However, given the physiology of a SM, it is reasonable that they save the medic function until after victory has been achieved and focus on their chaplain function in battle.

 

So it could fit with the fluff quite comfortably

[stinkenheim]

Don't forget that sanguinary priests also compete with quite a few other worthwhile units within the elites spaces. Wolf priests don't really have too much competition because of our ability to take 4 HQ choices.

Also consider that whilst ICs the sanguinary priests are little more than sergeants in terms of stats and have to pay for any and all upgrades, as such they become increasingly expensive if used as little more than a booster. Wolf Priests on the other hand have far superior stats and are able to be used in a far more offensive manner.

Look at apothecaries, they are a 30pt upgrade for a five man unit. Imagine the cost of including FNP as standard (or even wargear) it would likely be 50pts minimum to cover the fact that it could be handed to any unit regardless of size, armour save of T... In my opinion it would likely make the WP too expensive to be effective and as such would see an otherwise key unit sidelined in all but the larger games.

But hey, it could have been cool it just never happened sadly.

[Thunderhawk3015]

Preferred enemy on monstrous or infantry models every round of close combat(decided at the start of the game).

 

^that is why we don't have FNP, if you would like FNP I'd suggest reading the Blood Angels codex.

[Wysten]

Aye, after all, I could quite easily see the below occuring:

 

Wolf Priest starts off joined to thunderwolf pack on foot, as they move the same speed aside from fleet and assualt movement, directing lesser fire to the none special thunderwolf and rockets to the stormsheild baring wolf. Upon being in range, wolf priest breaks off to hop in the Rhino while Thunder wolf roar up ahead to remove threats, much less damaged then they could have been.

 

Next turn the Wolf Priest and hunter squad unload from the rhino, shoot then join in close combat, as while a power fist could take him out, by the time it has hit the squad will have already had ample chance to use feel no pain and prefered for one turn to damage their squad while reducing the damage dealt to them considerably. If he still lives, they will win the combat either the turn joined or next turn and so fourth and even if left out of combat, will be difficult to wipe out and scary enough in close combat that defeating them would be a struggle.

 

Granting feel no pain would probably make the Wolf Priest one of the best HQ's in the codex. Again, being a medic is importent, but I am inclined to believe that healing a guy from downed to combat efficency should not happen, that he would simply stablise them if nessiary or wait till after battle as marines can survive being in status for a considerable length of time.

[kapturowski]

I've also been bugged by this. As it is now, I've never considered using a Wolf Priest in any of my lists as I feel a Wolf Lord or Rune Priest adds more to the army. Had the Wolf Priests been able to give FNP to a unit I would include one in every game I play, just imagine one leading a Wolf Guard unit in Terminator armour with some Storm Shields! But as others have said, it's probably a balancing issue and reflective of how different armies play.

 

The only reason I would include a Wolf Priest in my list is because I like the models. Maybe I should try them out? They might surprise me I guess.

 

@ wysten

Only characters also mounted on a Thunderwolf can join Thunderwolf Cavalry unfortunatly.

[Wysten]

I've also been bugged by this. As it is now, I've never considered using a Wolf Priest in any of my lists as I feel a Wolf Lord or Rune Priest adds more to the army. Had the Wolf Priests been able to give FNP to a unit I would include one in every game I play, just imagine one leading a Wolf Guard unit in Terminator armour with some Storm Shields! But as others have said, it's probably a balancing issue and reflective of how different armies play.

 

The only reason I would include a Wolf Priest in my list is because I like the models. Maybe I should try them out? They might surprise me I guess.

 

@ wysten

Only characters also mounted on a Thunderwolf can join Thunderwolf Cavalry unfortunatly.

 

Ahh, I figured I may have missed something there. My bad.

[Brother Caleb]

Preferred enemy on monstrous or infantry models every round of close combat(decided at the start of the game).

 

^that is why we don't have FNP, if you would like FNP I'd suggest reading the Blood Angels codex.

Is this still the rule? I thought it was worded differently in 5th. Page 74 never defines the preferred enemy; the rule only states that the unit may re-roll to hit against the preferred enemy. I've been confused about it for some time. If we go by the BT rule preferred enemy is against armies, right?

 

Any clarification would be appreciated.

[Brother Nathan]

its purely balanceing. blood angels need it cause of high costs on our weaker stuff(asault squads etc...) and they end costing so much. it works, just. it balencestheir codex. to be fair i believe ba shouldnt have access to so many(ive only ever used 1 per game) and that really i just wanted access to a sanguary high priest other than corboulo(similar but with better stats and is an hq)

for wolves, imagine it would either end up with thunderwolves, which are hard enough to kill, they are practically a unit of deamon princes. fnp and prefered enemy... yea, no thanks. or it would end up in long fangs in cover, or with blood claws(prefered enemy with alll those attacks, and fnp? ) sorry but if wolves did that then id use your dex...

[Lord Ragnarok]

I've also been bugged by this. As it is now, I've never considered using a Wolf Priest in any of my lists as I feel a Wolf Lord or Rune Priest adds more to the army. Had the Wolf Priests been able to give FNP to a unit I would include one in every game I play, just imagine one leading a Wolf Guard unit in Terminator armour with some Storm Shields! But as others have said, it's probably a balancing issue and reflective of how different armies play.

 

The only reason I would include a Wolf Priest in my list is because I like the models. Maybe I should try them out? They might surprise me I guess.

 

@ wysten

Only characters also mounted on a Thunderwolf can join Thunderwolf Cavalry unfortunatly.

 

Wolf Priest with Saga of the hunter letting the pack it is with benefit from +1 cover is probably worth a try.

[kapturowski]

I've also been bugged by this. As it is now, I've never considered using a Wolf Priest in any of my lists as I feel a Wolf Lord or Rune Priest adds more to the army. Had the Wolf Priests been able to give FNP to a unit I would include one in every game I play, just imagine one leading a Wolf Guard unit in Terminator armour with some Storm Shields! But as others have said, it's probably a balancing issue and reflective of how different armies play.

 

The only reason I would include a Wolf Priest in my list is because I like the models. Maybe I should try them out? They might surprise me I guess.

 

@ wysten

Only characters also mounted on a Thunderwolf can join Thunderwolf Cavalry unfortunatly.

 

Wolf Priest with Saga of the hunter letting the pack it is with benefit from +1 cover is probably worth a try.

 

I just tweaked my list in an upcoming 1500pts battle vs Necrons to include a Wolf Priest :D. I've put him in Terminator Armour as I'll be using a Loganwing and I really like that model, otherwise, that Saga is quite golden with the latest FAQ. I realised that Wolf Priests make any accompanying unit Fearless and I'm quite famous for failing my morale tests (and killing my own troops with plasma), especially with my wolf Guard, so a Wolf Priest might be a solution to part of my problems.

 

Back on topic, what about if they had dropped Oath of War and included Fell No Pain instead? Would that be balanced?

[breng77]

Because the wolf dex was put out before GW started handing out FNP like candy. Seriously very few units used to have this rule (Nurgle stuff, command squads in Codex marines, maybe one or 2 more units), now everyone is running around with it. Tyranids can get it, BA get it, Dark Eldar get it. I'm just waiting for the next Ork Dex where pain poyz are elites that give a bubble of feel no pain, to 180 ork Boyz

[the jeske]

Back on topic, what about if they had dropped Oath of War and included Fell No Pain instead? Would that be balanced?

 

nope. because you would have to pick a version of FnP you want . the one per squad version[but WP could still squad hop] or the bubble version BAs got . both considering WP are 2w models with possible +2sv , ss , immunity to ID[not on all of course but one is enough] it would be over the top no matter what you picked[the bubble version of course more] . imagine those 8 man GH squads with plas +2combi plas[one pries one on WG] re-rolls vs infantry 2 power weapon in squad[GH and priest] one fist [wg] and rending on one dude . And it doesnt even cost that much. It would move SW away from being a short range , counter army to an rhino rush ala 3ed . Not to mention the problems it would create with some of the non GH units. WP with wolfs[not TWC] cover and them and FnP on them , long bases and biggest wolf models you can find . unit fearless too [or do WP make only marines fearless ?] . wolfs would be like ultra assault grots.

[Ranwulf]

I've also been bugged by this. As it is now, I've never considered using a Wolf Priest in any of my lists as I feel a Wolf Lord or Rune Priest adds more to the army. Had the Wolf Priests been able to give FNP to a unit I would include one in every game I play, just imagine one leading a Wolf Guard unit in Terminator armour with some Storm Shields! But as others have said, it's probably a balancing issue and reflective of how different armies play.

 

The only reason I would include a Wolf Priest in my list is because I like the models. Maybe I should try them out? They might surprise me I guess.

 

@ wysten

Only characters also mounted on a Thunderwolf can join Thunderwolf Cavalry unfortunatly.

 

Wolf Priest with Saga of the hunter letting the pack it is with benefit from +1 cover is probably worth a try.

 

I just tweaked my list in an upcoming 1500pts battle vs Necrons to include a Wolf Priest :wallbash:. I've put him in Terminator Armour as I'll be using a Loganwing and I really like that model, otherwise, that Saga is quite golden with the latest FAQ. I realised that Wolf Priests make any accompanying unit Fearless and I'm quite famous for failing my morale tests (and killing my own troops with plasma), especially with my wolf Guard, so a Wolf Priest might be a solution to part of my problems.

 

Back on topic, what about if they had dropped Oath of War and included Fell No Pain instead? Would that be balanced?

 

I would rather get Oath of War then FnP. Space Wolves have far more attacks than other Space Marines armies, and since it's Preferred Enemy, you can keep using every turn., re-rolling EVERY ATTACK, combining that with Wolf Claw...re-roll to hit and to wound.

 

Ran

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

We don't need no stinkin painkillers. Let the apothecaries run around injecting battle brothers every time their tummy hurts. A wolf priest has more important things to do, like smash the skulls of enemies. :lol:

[Wildfire]

Edit: I really wish that more GW staff (i.e. codex or BL authors) were as approchable as ADB and would share their reasoning behind their work. Yes, I'm probably a bit too blue-eyed and they would have to suffer through a lot of flaming and abuse...

 

What's ADB?

 

It would move SW away from being a short range , counter army to an rhino rush ala 3ed .

 

I'm fine with that. Maybe it's just me showing my age, but I'm still irked that BA and SW have swapped tactics.

[Lord_Caerolion]

ADB= Aaron Dembski-Bowden, the Black Library author.

[Demonslayer]

I think it was an oversight :huh: although FNP would be nice against Orks and Guard. But why complain about it, we haven't got it, we just need to work around it and pray to Russ and the Emperor more for making more armour saves :(