1st and 2nd Foundings

[CKO]

If some unknown chapter specializes in x for thousands of years while a 1st or 2nd founding chapter just use x as normal, who does x better?

 

Example: If a younger chapter likes to use bikes and have been using bikes throughout their entire existence compared to a 1st Founding chapter that has 1-2 bike squads in each company and the 8th company, who does bikes better?

[Ace Debonair]

If some unknown chapter specializes in x for thousands of years while a 1st or 2nd founding chapter just use x as normal, who does x better?

 

Example: If a younger chapter likes to use bikes and have been using bikes throughout their entire existence compared to a 1st Founding chapter that has 1-2 bike squads in each company and the 8th company, who does bikes better?

 

I'd imagine that the newer chapter would 'do bikes better'.

 

But if this is going where I think it is going, I don't know that it follows the newer chapter would have more bikes. :wallbash:

And doubly so for Dreadnoughts, who are harder to make.

[Ecritter]

Specialists (that have worked at it for thousands of years) would almost certainly use that speciality better. Does that mean that have more of a certain rarest of the rare items ... not as cut and dry.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

It depends on the situation, like Ecritter said it's not all cut and dry.

 

The difference is skill/talent vs experience. In the end it all comes down to the individual specialists from each chapter and if one chapter has a far greater pool of a certain specialist they will invariably have more skilled individuals than a normal codex chapter, even a first founding one.

 

That said, a first through to about eighth founding chapter (basically any chapter with a few millennia of service under their belt) will have a wealth of documented experience of war over any newer, specialized chapter.

 

Do you have more details that we can compare?

[CKO]

:wallbash: you guys think I am talking about Blacklight, dreadnaught chapter. I asked the question because I see alot of responses where the critic is telling the writer a 1st or 2nd foundings cant do it so your guys can not. I am under the impression that you can make creative space with good reasoning, and you can do things that a 1st founding chapter cant do!

[Brother Claudius]

At some point, does time really come into play? For instance: in our human existance, experts and specialist might have 40-50 years of doing something. Does it go to reason that a space marine who has lived for say 500 years is infinitely better than one who has lived for 200 years? Or do they reach a saturation point where skill cannot be improved?

 

Would this not likewise apply to a chapter? After several millenia, is there really something new to learn which would alter your degree of skill? I certainly think that the newest of chapters cannot hold a candle to a 1st founding. However, I would think that chapters which have been in existance for say a millenia or two would all have a similar degrees of skill within their specializations.

 

There are, after all, only so many ways to cut the head off an ork or shoot your bolter around corners. :)

[Blacklight]

:lol: you guys think I am talking about Blacklight, dreadnaught chapter. I asked the question because I see alot of responses where the critic is telling the writer a 1st or 2nd foundings cant do it so your guys can not. I am under the impression that you can make creative space with good reasoning, and you can do things that a 1st founding chapter cant do!

 

Haha, that's pretty awesome, even if it was a misunderstanding :D

 

Anyways, to me it would seem that if a chapter specialized in attack bikes since their inception, they would undoubtedly be better at it than a 1st Founding chapter that uses bikes on occasion. It's not so much that people were saying (in my case) that I couldn't have more dreads because my marines were inferior, it was more because the 1st Founding chapter is higher on the requisition 'tree' and therefore wouldn't have access to something. Talent wise, I don't see any reason why, say, a Salamanders descendant chapter couldn't be better than the Ultramarines with flamers so long as that was their specialty.

[Apothete]

To answer the question as it was asked, sticking solely to the face of the matter...

 

Yes, it is possible that a younger Chapter can do something that an older one has experience in and do it better. Look no further than the Codex for evidence of this, as many Chapters second their Thunderhawk pilots to the Hawk Lords for training in low-altitude insertion, combat dustoffs, and other stressful, highly-coordinated aerial maneuvers. The Mentors are tasked with testing, evaluating, and integrating new technology and refinements of the existing into the doctrines of the Astartes, which makes them something that no other Chapter has much experience in.

 

Having millenia of experience in a particular brand of warfare will likely ensure strong traditions, training methods, and an insight into the adaptive practice of a particular style of warfare, but a force that dedicates itself to an aspect is likely to have more insight than one that merely uses it as a part of a greater whole.

[CKO]

Would this not likewise apply to a chapter? After several millenia, is there really something new to learn which would alter your degree of skill? I certainly think that the newest of chapters cannot hold a candle to a 1st founding. However, I would think that chapters which have been in existance for say a millenia or two would all have a similar degrees of skill within their specializations.

 

Cannot hold a candle to a 1st founding ;) those are fighting words. In a vaccum battle, what advantage would the 1st founding have? The only advantage I can think of and its a huge one is equipment, both chapters would have exatcly 1000 marines. The marines will have the same amount of experience as 11th founding chapters have been around for thousands of years aswell. At the moment I can only think of one advantage one chapter would have over the other and that is having experts in certain things due to training, fighting a certain foe, or culture.

 

A younger chapter can train just as much as a 1st founding chapter. It is technically ;) impossible for a younger chapter to fight a certain foe longer than a first founding, but if you are tailored made to fight orks your marines will be just as much of a guru as a 1st founding guru. Culture is another, there are several forms of martial arts, is the oldest form the best?

 

 

To answer the question as it was asked, sticking solely to the face of the matter...

 

Yes, it is possible that a younger Chapter can do something that an older one has experience in and do it better. Look no further than the Codex for evidence of this, as many Chapters second their Thunderhawk pilots to the Hawk Lords for training in low-altitude insertion, combat dustoffs, and other stressful, highly-coordinated aerial maneuvers. The Mentors are tasked with testing, evaluating, and integrating new technology and refinements of the existing into the doctrines of the Astartes, which makes them something that no other Chapter has much experience in.

 

Having millenia of experience in a particular brand of warfare will likely ensure strong traditions, training methods, and an insight into the adaptive practice of a particular style of warfare, but a force that dedicates itself to an aspect is likely to have more insight than one that merely uses it as a part of a greater whole.

 

Best answer to the question so far, stated his opinion, gave supporting facts, and sum it up well also.

 

Good Job Apothete

[Venerable Brother Pelinore]

It depends on what it is, but I see no reason why a later chapter couldn't have more skill in most areas than a first founding chapter that didn't specialise into that area. But, that's a generalisation using the chapter as a whole not as individuals, because, just using it as an example..the Blood Ravens are known for their above average numbers of psykers, yet arguably, Mephiston and possibly Tigerius would probably be the two most powerful Astartes pskyers we've been exposed to so far....Ultramarines and Blood Angels certainly aren't known for their quality of psyker.

 

Training would focus them into that area, developing the skills they needed first (Going to use a Raven Guard successor, their training, provided they focused on infiltration, would primarily focus on driving home stealth techniques, the ability to move quickly and quietly, and the ambush), then working on others, and they'd have the experience of their training cadre to draw upon, thus the experience gap of the first and second founding chapters are mitigated, at least in part.

 

However, there are limits. While a Raven Guard successor could be more skilled in covert operations than the White Scars, or a Salamanders successor could use their devastators to far more devastating (Ahh, I love puns) effect than the Blood Angels, equipment, and access to it, will play a major role. Items like the Dreadnaught, Tactical Dreadnaught Armor (Terminator Armor), and even things like plasma weapons are rare enough that they are in high demand by the Astartes, and the supply certainly isn't enough to meet the demand. As such, new chapters are quite likely to be low on supplies of these things, certainly not have them in abundance unless they've been stealing them from other chapters/looting (Marines Malevolent), as first founding chapters with close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus can't even get a full supply (Iron Hands).

 

So yes. A later founding chapter could be more skilled than a first or second founding chapter in their chosen theatre of war, but it is limited by certain constraints.

[Marshal Rohr]

How would a Chapter using attack bikes since their inception make them better than a Chapter who uses them since.... oh yeh.. their inception? All Chapters use the same equipment, and the tactics for the equipment dont magically change with the color of their armor. A White Scar serving 100 years as a Biker will have the same knowledge and experience as an Ultramarine who has also spent 100 years as a biker. Its ridiculous to think otherwise, as it is ridiculous to think that a chapter will come out of their founding with some kind of fetish for one piece of equipment.

[Venerable Brother Pelinore]

How would a Chapter using attack bikes since their inception make them better than a Chapter who uses them since.... oh yeh.. their inception? All Chapters use the same equipment, and the tactics for the equipment dont magically change with the color of their armor.

 

Not all chapters are codex-adherant, and even those that are are sometimes choose to ignore various parts of it. The Space Wolves choose to ignore virtually the whole thing for example (Their company makeup is the one that springs to mind first), the Black Templars large portions (Having no scouts, very large prediliction for close combat, etc.) and the tactics for the Chapters we are exposed to most certainly do show alot of variation, even with the same equipment. Example: Assault marines with Jump packs...the Blood Angels use them to close the distance alot faster, allowing them to show their mastery of close combat, while the Salamanders will more often use them to support their firing line.

 

 

A White Scar serving 100 years as a Biker will have the same knowledge and experience as an Ultramarine who has also spent 100 years as a biker. Its ridiculous to think otherwise, as it is ridiculous to think that a chapter will come out of their founding with some kind of fetish for one piece of equipment.

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/...097&start=1

 

The series of articles detailed by Games Workshop suggests that they believe each of their chapters have a 'fetish', as you put it, for a particular style of warfare, and the equipment that helps them achieve it, or just a piece that helps establish the fluff for the chapter (Salamanders and flamer/melta weapons).

 

There are various fluff stories that re-inforce this. 'As much as it pained them as White Scars to leave their bikes behind, they had no choice.' Quoted from Cover of Darkness by Mitchel Scanlon in Legends of the Space Marines.

 

While it makes sense that two Astartes serving the same amount of time as a Biker would have a similar level of knowledge and experience, regardless of Chapter, how often will an Ultramarine spend 100 years as a biker? The bike isn't really a standard mission piece for the chapter is it? How often will an Ultramarine really get as much on-bike time as a White Scar?

 

----

 

I tend to think of them as the historical entities they're often based on. Each of them used equipment that was often quite similar in make (Time period and quality not withstanding), even if it looked quite different, yet they all had vastly different tactics for using said equipment, and I think the Astartes Chapters do a good job of representing that. The White Scars do an excellent job of emulating the horse warfare of Genghis Khan, while the Ultramarines take the more balanced approach to battle that the Romans did.

[Marshal Rohr]

How would a Chapter using attack bikes since their inception make them better than a Chapter who uses them since.... oh yeh.. their inception? All Chapters use the same equipment, and the tactics for the equipment dont magically change with the color of their armor.

 

Not all chapters are codex-adherant, and even those that are are sometimes choose to ignore various parts of it. The Space Wolves choose to ignore virtually the whole thing for example (Their company makeup is the one that springs to mind first), the Black Templars large portions (Having no scouts, very large prediliction for close combat, etc.) and the tactics for the Chapters we are exposed to most certainly do show alot of variation, even with the same equipment. Example: Assault marines with Jump packs...the Blood Angels use them to close the distance alot faster, allowing them to show their mastery of close combat, while the Salamanders will more often use them to support their firing line.

 

Both tactics you describe are standard doctrine for the application of assault squads. For missions that require it they stay behind the firing line, jumping into breaches forced by the enemy assault and closing them. On the other hand you have assault squads being used as a spearhead unit to fix the enemy in place. Both tactics would be SOP, per mission requirements, for ALL chapters. No one chapter is going to have a 'special move' tactics that only they know.

 

 

A White Scar serving 100 years as a Biker will have the same knowledge and experience as an Ultramarine who has also spent 100 years as a biker. Its ridiculous to think otherwise, as it is ridiculous to think that a chapter will come out of their founding with some kind of fetish for one piece of equipment.

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/...097&start=1

 

The series of articles detailed by Games Workshop suggests that they believe each of their chapters have a 'fetish', as you put it, for a particular style of warfare, and the equipment that helps them achieve it, or just a piece that helps establish the fluff for the chapter (Salamanders and flamer/melta weapons).

 

The 10th Mountain Division devotes significant training time to mountain operations, yet still fights standard combat missions. Then 101st is Air Assault, yet still fights standard combat missions. The Ranger Regiment spends significant amount of time perfecting Light Infantry Tactics and SOF support missions, yet still can be counted on to perform the same mission that could easily be tasked to any other light infantry outfit, with varying degrees of expertise.

 

All that says from GW is that culture and tradition dictate that the Chapters mentioned devote additional training time to a certain aspect of warfare. No where does it mention they do this to the exclusion of all else. Also, it would be ridiculous for the White Scars to commit 100% of their force to every battle mounted on Bikes, as terrain and enemy will always play a factor in what the unit requires to complete the mission.

 

Now, what we have never read, but would make sense, is that White Scars ride to battle on their bikes, dismount and form into Standard Codex Squads, fight their battle, and mount up and move out.

 

There are various fluff stories that re-inforce this. 'As much as it pained them as White Scars to leave their bikes behind, they had no choice.' Quoted from Cover of Darkness by Mitchel Scanlon in Legends of the Space Marines.

 

Written by an author who buys into the same flawed preconceptions as yourself. It isn't wrong, it just isn't logically how a Astartes force can operate without cherry picking their missions.

 

Say the Imperial Fists commit to a Crusade. Just because they arn't besieging something doesn't mean they wont fight battles that arnt sieges. The same with White Scars, they wont sit out any sieges just because riding bikes against a wall does less than nothing.

 

While it makes sense that two Astartes serving the same amount of time as a Biker would have a similar level of knowledge and experience, regardless of Chapter, how often will an Ultramarine spend 100 years as a biker? The bike isn't really a standard mission piece for the chapter is it? How often will an Ultramarine really get as much on-bike time as a White Scar?

 

Any Astartes from any Chapter could perform a specific duty for an indeterminate amount of time. There is no set time limit to be promoted to a battle company.

 

I tend to think of them as the historical entities they're often based on. Each of them used equipment that was often quite similar in make (Time period and quality not withstanding), even if it looked quite different, yet they all had vastly different tactics for using said equipment, and I think the Astartes Chapters do a good job of representing that. The White Scars do an excellent job of emulating the horse warfare of Genghis Khan, while the Ultramarines take the more balanced approach to battle that the Romans did.

 

Those same historical entities combat doctrine, equipment, and tactics were are dependent on the enemies they fought, the time period, and technology available.

 

The Firing line was popular until the beginning of last century, but when the machine gun and other high casualty producing weapons were invented it became useless. Same thing with mounted cavalry. It evolved into the modern day armored units.

 

If I base a Chapter on Napoleonic England, and had them fighting from firing lines, they would never win a battle.

[Ecritter]

The 10th Mountain Division devotes significant training time to mountain operations, yet still fights standard combat missions. Then 101st is Air Assault, yet still fights standard combat missions. The Ranger Regiment spends significant amount of time perfecting Light Infantry Tactics and SOF support missions, yet still can be counted on to perform the same mission that could easily be tasked to any other light infantry outfit, with varying degrees of expertise.

 

A great argument, but completely flawed.

 

Take the 10th for instance, all army divisions practice some type of mountain operations but you'd have to admit that the 10th would be better at it then the standard army unit. In the same way all army units practice para operations, but the 101st are experts at it. I'd like to see you deny that. Rangers are also better at their speciality then the standard combat unit.

 

Your own argument disproves itself. Specialist are better at what they do then standard be-all units. As a veteran I've seen it every day.

[Venerable Brother Pelinore]

I believe we are getting slightly off-topic, but I do like the discussion.

 

Both tactics you describe are standard doctrine for the application of assault squads. For missions that require it they stay behind the firing line, jumping into breaches forced by the enemy assault and closing them. On the other hand you have assault squads being used as a spearhead unit to fix the enemy in place. Both tactics would be SOP, per mission requirements, for ALL chapters. No one chapter is going to have a 'special move' tactics that only they know.

 

You are correct, that no-one chapter is going to have 'special move' tactics that only they know (Unless it's pertaining to a piece of equipment that only they have, like the Blood Angels and their Baal Predator). However, what I was trying to say, and it appears I didn't do a very good job of, was that certain chapters favour some tactics to the exclusion of others, like those I listed. The Black Templars eschew ranged combat for melee when it's possible, so they 'can make sure the enemy is dead', in the words in the Black Templar Creed. The Blood Angels will charge into the enemy in a beserk fury, in the grips of the Red Thirst.

 

They will have ranged support, and they will use standard tactics often, but as with any force, any player of strategic games, they will have their 'go-to' tactics that they use before anything else, even if another tactic may have been a better choice in that situation. These are represented in the codices by the special rules for the chapters, such as Descent of Angels, the rule that allows your flamers/meltas/Thunder Hammers to be master-crafted (name escapes me right now) that Vulkan allows you take, etc.

 

The 10th Mountain Division devotes significant training time to mountain operations, yet still fights standard combat missions. Then 101st is Air Assault, yet still fights standard combat missions. The Ranger Regiment spends significant amount of time perfecting Light Infantry Tactics and SOF support missions, yet still can be counted on to perform the same mission that could easily be tasked to any other light infantry outfit, with varying degrees of expertise.

 

All that says from GW is that culture and tradition dictate that the Chapters mentioned devote additional training time to a certain aspect of warfare. No where does it mention they do this to the exclusion of all else. Also, it would be ridiculous for the White Scars to commit 100% of their force to every battle mounted on Bikes, as terrain and enemy will always play a factor in what the unit requires to complete the mission.

 

Now, what we have never read, but would make sense, is that White Scars ride to battle on their bikes, dismount and form into Standard Codex Squads, fight their battle, and mount up and move out.

 

Actually, on that very page it does list they use a mobile force, not just bikes, but infantry loaded in razorbacks etc. Given an open field, a wide variety of Chapters will run with it and take a variety of tactics, at least based on the fluff we've been exposed to.

 

The White Scars will mount up into a mobile force, largely on bikes but possibly into Razorbacks and the like as well, and fight in that style. The Salamanders on the other hand, would take alot more static approach, utilising alot of tactical and devastator squads with heavy armored support, maybe even the vaunted Firedrakes.

 

I do agree however that they would be efficient in the other arenas of combat, and would not train in one to the exclusion of all others. White Scars would be efficient on foot, although whether or not they would be the equal (As a general rule) of a Blood Angel or another 'assault-orientated' chapter with a blade is debate-able, they certainly would be skilled to the level expected of an Astartes. However, even if the possibly better tactic was to join in close combat, would the White Scars Strike Force join in the assault, or use their bikes/mobility? I'd bet on the latter. Even if it doesn't make the most sense in a military sense, and I'll admit, it doesn't always, while the Astartes are a highly trained military unit, they're also deeply mired in tradition, and it takes alot to break them from that (Look at how much it took for the Ultramarines to make a slight deviation from the Codex Astartes.)

 

Any Astartes from any Chapter could perform a specific duty for an indeterminate amount of time. There is no set time limit to be promoted to a battle company.

 

You are correct. But how likely is it that a member of a chapter without a strong prediliction for mounted combat will have their scouts/battle-brothers spend 100 years 'in the saddle' so to speak? It's certainly possible, as there's no limit to how long they can serve as a member of a certain squad, but unlike a Devestator, or an Assault Marine, or even just a regular Tactical marine, as you pointed out, bikes aren't practical in every mission, or even alot. So, unless you really -want- to bring bikes along, how often are you going to do so?

 

Those same historical entities combat doctrine, equipment, and tactics were are dependent on the enemies they fought, the time period, and technology available.

 

The Firing line was popular until the beginning of last century, but when the machine gun and other high casualty producing weapons were invented it became useless. Same thing with mounted cavalry. It evolved into the modern day armored units.

 

If I base a Chapter on Napoleonic England, and had them fighting from firing lines, they would never win a battle.

 

The Imperial Guard seem to like their firing lines :mellow:.

 

You are correct, of course. They were based on technology, enemies and the time period. The same so for the Astartes....although alot of their tactics were written 10,000 years ago. Games Workshop have taken ancient cultures from our history and spliced their combat tactics with those of the Astartes into something believeable, if you give them a little leeway, and don't expect them to follow the progression of the modern military.

 

A bike charge with underslung meltaguns piloted by armored superhumans with chainswords and bolt pistols? I think that may work :P.

[Marshal Rohr]

The 10th Mountain Division devotes significant training time to mountain operations, yet still fights standard combat missions. Then 101st is Air Assault, yet still fights standard combat missions. The Ranger Regiment spends significant amount of time perfecting Light Infantry Tactics and SOF support missions, yet still can be counted on to perform the same mission that could easily be tasked to any other light infantry outfit, with varying degrees of expertise.

 

A great argument, but completely flawed.

 

Take the 10th for instance, all army divisions practice some type of mountain operations but you'd have to admit that the 10th would be better at it then the standard army unit. In the same way all army units practice para operations, but the 101st are experts at it. I'd like to see you deny that. Rangers are also better at their speciality then the standard combat unit.

 

Your own argument disproves itself. Specialist are better at what they do then standard be-all units. As a veteran I've seen it every day.

 

It was meant to support that even given the preferences of certain Chapters, it all revolves around mission specific training. If the Ultramarines devoted time to it they would be as good as White Scars. However, they dont and as in canon White Scars are masters of bike mounted warfare. That doesn't mean that its all they do all the time, as they would if they were carbon copies of the cultures they are based on.

 

It was meant to both agree with VBP's post and at the same time support my own argument that 'specialization' is dependent upon training time, something a new chapter would likely not do, given their youth. If a Chapter spends all their time from day one to become bike specialists to the degree of the White Scars then they will lack a strong base in the other areas of standard marine operations. Likely at some point in their history the White Scars (probably the adopting of the Codex) the reorganization also included extensive retraining. Additionally, the White Scars of the Great Crusade likely preferred bike mounted ops, and used such operations to supplement more tradition tactics, they were not solely bike focused as IA:WS suggests.

 

I believe we are getting slightly off-topic, but I do like the discussion.

 

Both tactics you describe are standard doctrine for the application of assault squads. For missions that require it they stay behind the firing line, jumping into breaches forced by the enemy assault and closing them. On the other hand you have assault squads being used as a spearhead unit to fix the enemy in place. Both tactics would be SOP, per mission requirements, for ALL chapters. No one chapter is going to have a 'special move' tactics that only they know.

 

You are correct, that no-one chapter is going to have 'special move' tactics that only they know (Unless it's pertaining to a piece of equipment that only they have, like the Blood Angels and their Baal Predator). However, what I was trying to say, and it appears I didn't do a very good job of, was that certain chapters favour some tactics to the exclusion of others, like those I listed. The Black Templars eschew ranged combat for melee when it's possible, so they 'can make sure the enemy is dead', in the words in the Black Templar Creed. The Blood Angels will charge into the enemy in a beserk fury, in the grips of the Red Thirst.

 

While both examples are true, they are dependent upon the 'flaws' of both Chapters. The Templars are singularly focused and the Blood Angels have a genetic flaw that forces them into the situations you describe. The way I see it, while in close combat both Chapters would outperform other chapters, the methods they use to reach close combat will be the same as everyone else. For instance the Black Templars use two tactics the majority of the time: Orbital Assault and Mechanized Assault.

 

In mechanized warfare it can be argued the Templars will adopt something of a 'knightly' aspect to their tactics. They will wait for allied forces to open an opportunity and thunder through the opening guns blazing and chainswords revving. I can also see the Templars using Orbital Assault as more than a tool for surgical strikes and enemy chain of command elimination, instead using it as an airborne assault directly into the heart of the enemy. Though, both tactics could and are also used by all other Chapters.

 

They will have ranged support, and they will use standard tactics often, but as with any force, any player of strategic games, they will have their 'go-to' tactics that they use before anything else, even if another tactic may have been a better choice in that situation. These are represented in the codices by the special rules for the chapters, such as Descent of Angels, the rule that allows your flamers/meltas/Thunder Hammers to be master-crafted (name escapes me right now) that Vulkan allows you take, etc.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing that some chapter dont excel in certain areas, it is canon that they do. What I am arguing is A) a new chapter will likely be unable to reach such a level without sacrificing portions of their 'basic' marine abilities and :( even with such preferences and skills they must still be able to perform the 'basic' marine operations or be obsolete, like the tactics of the cultures they mimic.

 

[

quote name='Marshal2 Crusaders' post='2609610' date='Jan 8 2011, 12:14 AM]The 10th Mountain Division devotes significant training time to mountain operations, yet still fights standard combat missions. Then 101st is Air Assault, yet still fights standard combat missions. The Ranger Regiment spends significant amount of time perfecting Light Infantry Tactics and SOF support missions, yet still can be counted on to perform the same mission that could easily be tasked to any other light infantry outfit, with varying degrees of expertise.

 

All that says from GW is that culture and tradition dictate that the Chapters mentioned devote additional training time to a certain aspect of warfare. No where does it mention they do this to the exclusion of all else. Also, it would be ridiculous for the White Scars to commit 100% of their force to every battle mounted on Bikes, as terrain and enemy will always play a factor in what the unit requires to complete the mission.

 

Now, what we have never read, but would make sense, is that White Scars ride to battle on their bikes, dismount and form into Standard Codex Squads, fight their battle, and mount up and move out.

 

Actually, on that very page it does list they use a mobile force, not just bikes, but infantry loaded in razorbacks etc. Given an open field, a wide variety of Chapters will run with it and take a variety of tactics, at least based on the fluff we've been exposed to.

 

The White Scars will mount up into a mobile force, largely on bikes but possibly into Razorbacks and the like as well, and fight in that style. The Salamanders on the other hand, would take alot more static approach, utilising alot of tactical and devastator squads with heavy armored support, maybe even the vaunted Firedrakes.

 

I agree that when those two chapters are presented with such a tactical situation they will do exactly as you describe, but I also believe (in my opinion of course, which is really all my posts are) a newer chapter will not act similarly because they have not been 'raised' to do so, which was the point of the OP, unless I am mistaken.

 

I do agree however that they would be efficient in the other arenas of combat, and would not train in one to the exclusion of all others. White Scars would be efficient on foot, although whether or not they would be the equal (As a general rule) of a Blood Angel or another 'assault-orientated' chapter with a blade is debate-able, they certainly would be skilled to the level expected of an Astartes. However, even if the possibly better tactic was to join in close combat, would the White Scars Strike Force join in the assault, or use their bikes/mobility? I'd bet on the latter. Even if it doesn't make the most sense in a military sense, and I'll admit, it doesn't always, while the Astartes are a highly trained military unit, they're also deeply mired in tradition, and it takes alot to break them from that (Look at how much it took for the Ultramarines to make a slight deviation from the Codex Astartes.)

 

I agree with this, however my desire for realism forces me to believe that tradition is as much a weapon as their bolters. And sometimes you need something with a little more punch or a little more speed, if that makes sense.

 

Any Astartes from any Chapter could perform a specific duty for an indeterminate amount of time. There is no set time limit to be promoted to a battle company.

 

You are correct. But how likely is it that a member of a chapter without a strong prediliction for mounted combat will have their scouts/battle-brothers spend 100 years 'in the saddle' so to speak? It's certainly possible, as there's no limit to how long they can serve as a member of a certain squad, but unlike a Devestator, or an Assault Marine, or even just a regular Tactical marine, as you pointed out, bikes aren't practical in every mission, or even alot. So, unless you really -want- to bring bikes along, how often are you going to do so?

 

Given that a reserve marine in any chapter spends most of his time training instead of fighting it really just depends on his deployments. While the scenario I described is highly unlikely, it was meant to reinforce my previous argument that training equals specialization.

 

Those same historical entities combat doctrine, equipment, and tactics were are dependent on the enemies they fought, the time period, and technology available.

 

The Firing line was popular until the beginning of last century, but when the machine gun and other high casualty producing weapons were invented it became useless. Same thing with mounted cavalry. It evolved into the modern day armored units.

 

If I base a Chapter on Napoleonic England, and had them fighting from firing lines, they would never win a battle.

 

The Imperial Guard seem to like their firing lines :D.

 

You are correct, of course. They were based on technology, enemies and the time period. The same so for the Astartes....although alot of their tactics were written 10,000 years ago. Games Workshop have taken ancient cultures from our history and spliced their combat tactics with those of the Astartes into something believeable, if you give them a little leeway, and don't expect them to follow the progression of the modern military.

 

A bike charge with underslung meltaguns piloted by armored superhumans with chainswords and bolt pistols? I think that may work :).

 

Well in the instance you described they would suffer from the same problems as cavalry in WWI. Charging a heavily dug in enemy will result in high casualties. However, facing off against an Ork armored column they would prevail, as seen on Armageddon. Bike mounted combat is purely for use on wide open fields of conventional warfare, and given that most combat operations for marines are in space, cities, and environments that regular humans can't survive, bikes likely can't be used in all such environs and the Chapter would have to fight like everyone else.

 

Again, all of my arguments are purely how I see the 40K universe and my attempts to reconcile them with realistic expectations and abilities. For instance I think Space Marines have to make use of other aircraft than Thunderhawks and Tempests to maintain air superiority and fleet security, instead of constantly relying on the Imperial Navy. Also, while the argument fails when used to justify the highly unlikely, realize just because we havn't heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Ecritter]

My mistake then, sorry.

[Marshal Rohr]

As another argument about tactical preferences and strategies.

 

 

Think about how each Chapter recruits and trains their members. For this first part I will use two wildly different examples: the Ultramarines and the Black Templars.

 

The Black Templars lack much of the unit designations of Codex chapters, no devastators or scouts. Instead, when an aspirant is recruited it is done at an accelerated pace. He completes the trials and spends only two or three years at a Chapter Keep receiving the basic marine training to supplement their already formidable skill, while being tested for geneseed compatibility. The Ultramarines, on the other hand, select recruits from warriors who have spent everyday of their lives since age six studying tactics, strategy, patrolling, marksmanship, and any other conceivable military skill. When they are selected they come into it with far more knowledge and skill than a typical Black Templar aspirant, but likely lack the same actual experience. The Agiselus barracks is one of the best military training institutions in the entire Imperium, and the students come out as capable as the best of the Imperial Guard.

 

The Black Templars adopt a vicious sink or swim approach, if a neophyte dies, then he was unworthy. Only those who survive long enough are worthy. A Neophyte as opposed to a scout is thrown into missions no chapter would risk their future in. A Neophyte will accompany his master on savage boarding missions, into the heart of enemy defences, and the fiercest close combats anywhere. By the time he is ready to be gifted with the Black Carapace, he has seen combat that no other scout can claim to have seen, and survived it. An Ultramarine scout will have spent years perfecting conventional warfare operations, long range surveillance missions, sabotage missions in space hulks and hive ships, and other special operations that no Neophyte would ever experience. By the time he is ready to receive his Black Carapace, he is beyond even the skill of the best of the Imperial Guard and the ultimate warrior. However, his first taste of that true combat will only come years later, as even with his power armor he is eased into the furious battles that only space marines can survive, while a Neophyte will have been in those since being apprenticed to his master.

 

The Ultramarines method influences their doctrines and warfare, an Ultramarine will look at all available options, while a Black Templar will only see a few. These few options are where the Templar excels, and as such will succeed as he has his whole life with the Chapter.

 

It is less a matter of flexibility and instead a matter of training. A Black Templar will have prepared his whole life for the mind-rending ferocity of typical space marine engagements that an Ultramarine wont see until he has spent many years in power armor. And with this experience it wont be foreign to him to commit overwhelming force where an Ultramarine will look for alternatives. The Ultramarine will, in all likelihood, be able to end more battles with less overt warfare, but that isnt what the Templars are about, and dont consider that a flaw.

 

Now for the second part.

 

I have been looking into the Fire Angels, a new chapter with a preference for armored and mechanized warfare. As such I have gone out and secured some books by famous tankmasters like Guderian and Patton and even got my hands on a book about armor tactics and capabilities which I am very much enjoying. But back to the Fire Angels.

 

If a relatively new chapter is going to have a preference for a certain way of warfare it is going to be because of external forces at play, like the Fire Angels possessing a world that can turn out Rhino-chassis vehicles in incredibly high numbers. This surplus of armored vehicles lent the chapter the ability to engage in such warfare over and over again, and two mellennia later they have made names for themselves as tank masters.

 

Now to get to this level the Fire Angels will have had to done considerable amount of training with local IG and PDF forces, since the main enemy of the Predator will be the Leman Russ and its variants. Since a Space Marine Chapter doesn't have access to such vehicles they will liekly have had to spend alot of time training with outside forces.