Mike the Zealous Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hello fellow BA players! Im building out a squad of VV with JP at the moment, and im not sure as to how i should fit them out I am going with 10 marines, and am debating whether to go 8 PW and 2 PF or should i just got with 4 PW, 2 PF? the Full kitout would be 470 points, while the 2 PF 4 PW would be 410 The list they are going to fit in is as follows Astorath 220 Librarian w/ JP 125 3 JP PW Priests 270 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF 235 10 Man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF 235 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF 235 1320 total Im really at a impasse with their squad loadout. if i go the cheaper route, i can buy Infernos for the RAS and a 5 man 1PF vanguard for a second choice. However, if i go full bore with the PW loadout on the expensive squad, i can still buy the 2nd VV squad and have 40 points left over. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 8 power weapons seems a little excessive. Maybe go with a storm sheild or 2. It would allow you to be creative with wound allocation and to eat up any lascannon or plasma shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Zealous Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 8 power weapons seems a little excessive. Maybe go with a storm sheild or 2. It would allow you to be creative with wound allocation and to eat up any lascannon or plasma shots Ah ok didnt think of that. I do have a bunch of SS lying around. Do you use VV alot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAGABOND Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I've recently started running a squad of 5 with all with Power Weapons, nice to keep a Priest closeby aswell for Furious Charge and Feel No Pain. :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I only realy play 1000 point games so no I havnt used them yet but I am in the process of expanding my list to 1500 and I will be fielding 5-10 of them in that list. There are alot of topics on VV already on this forum so you can get alot of useful information form then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashen Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I've just returned back to blood angels and in my 1200 point list I am taking to a tourney I run 5 with one powerfist. At that points level they work pretty good. I do plan to expand it to a unit of 8-10 at some stage and will probably add in 2 power weaps and maybe 2 SS. If I was you I would keep their loadout to a minimum, they will pretty much still kick most units butts when they deep strike in and charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Personally, my experience with Large Vanguards were there were rarely places to drop them and win back their points. I cut down to a smaller Vanguard, 6 guys, 3 with upgrades for 260 points. Now they can usually drop in, kill something I don't like, then anything else is bonus. My exact load out is: Sergeant with pair of lightning claws 1 Veteran with power weapon 1 Veteran with Thunder Hammer 3 Veterans with Bolt Pistol+Chainsword (1 has a meltabomb) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Here is how I'm currently running mine: Sergeant - power fist & stormshield Vet #1: lightning claw & stormshield Vet #2: lightning claw & stormshield Vet #3: lightning claw & stormshield Vet #4: power sword & bolt pistol Vet #5: power sword & bolt pistol They hit very hard on the initial drop and can soak up some enemy shooting. This is my favorite configuration when I've got the points, otherwise I just run five - power fist & stormshield + 4x power sword & bolt pistol. G :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 10 men 4 storm shields 2 thunder hammers and 4 power weapons all on different models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Zealous Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Dang thanks for the responses guys! The main reason i was thinking a 10 man squad was so i could combat squad them before i DS, because i recently read the DOA article that said the VV could be combat squadded before Deep Strike. Is that possible? Those are some nasty configurations, im thinking bout keeping the SS guys without lightning claws though, just to save points. Also, yea the priests nearby would be nasty, but im counting on Astorath's ability to give the VV furious charge off the getgo (hopefully) In addition, i also was mostly just planning the VV to drop in and murder something, then getting cut down in the next round or so, so i didnt really consider the SS at first, i was just going for pure offensive killing. The Lightning claw idea with the SS gives me some ideas though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hello fellow BA players! Im building out a squad of VV with JP at the moment, and im not sure as to how i should fit them out I am going with 10 marines, and am debating whether to go 8 PW and 2 PF or should i just got with 4 PW, 2 PF? the Full kitout would be 470 points, while the 2 PF 4 PW would be 410 The list they are going to fit in is as follows Astorath 220 Librarian w/ JP 125 3 JP PW Priests 270 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF 235 10 Man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF 235 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF 235 1320 total Im really at a impasse with their squad loadout. if i go the cheaper route, i can buy Infernos for the RAS and a 5 man 1PF vanguard for a second choice. However, if i go full bore with the PW loadout on the expensive squad, i can still buy the 2nd VV squad and have 40 points left over. Thoughts? What about... Astorath 220 Librarian w/ JP 125 2 JP PW+IP Priests 210 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF+HF 245 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF+IP 250 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF+IP 250 6 Death Company - (Bolter)x2, (BP+CCW), (BP+PW)x2, (TH+Bolter) and jump packs - 270 10 Vanguard - (PW+BP)x2, (PW+MeltaBomb)x2, (BP+CCW)x2, (BP+CCW+Meltabomb)x2, (PF)x2 - 430 =2000 Putting Death Company with Astorath on the field tends to complicate things more for your opponent than a second Vanguard. Yep you can combat squad the Vanguards on the drop. With that loadout you get the choice of two units as an even split with 5 unique models in each for wound allocation - or you can stick 4 meltabombs onto a stationary vehicle, etc. Mixing in lightning claws makes things a little better, LC+Combimelta on priest is a good loadout, swap out two PW from each grouping for a LC to further diversify, and you've got an extra 10 points to make one PF a Thunderhammer and grab an extra meltabomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Zealous Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hello fellow BA players! Im building out a squad of VV with JP at the moment, and im not sure as to how i should fit them out I am going with 10 marines, and am debating whether to go 8 PW and 2 PF or should i just got with 4 PW, 2 PF? the Full kitout would be 470 points, while the 2 PF 4 PW would be 410 The list they are going to fit in is as follows Astorath 220 Librarian w/ JP 125 3 JP PW Priests 270 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF 235 10 Man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF 235 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF 235 1320 total Im really at a impasse with their squad loadout. if i go the cheaper route, i can buy Infernos for the RAS and a 5 man 1PF vanguard for a second choice. However, if i go full bore with the PW loadout on the expensive squad, i can still buy the 2nd VV squad and have 40 points left over. Thoughts? What about... Astorath 220 Librarian w/ JP 125 2 JP PW+IP Priests 210 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF+HF 245 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF+IP 250 10 man RAS 2 Melta 1 PF+IP 250 6 Death Company - (Bolter)x2, (BP+CCW), (BP+PW)x2, (TH+Bolter) and jump packs - 270 10 Vanguard - (PW+BP)x2, (PW+MeltaBomb)x2, (BP+CCW)x2, (BP+CCW+Meltabomb)x2, (PF)x2 - 430 =2000 Putting Death Company with Astorath on the field tends to complicate things more for your opponent than a second Vanguard. Yep you can combat squad the Vanguards on the drop. With that loadout you get the choice of two units as an even split with 5 unique models in each for wound allocation - or you can stick 4 meltabombs onto a stationary vehicle, etc. Mixing in lightning claws makes things a little better, LC+Combimelta on priest is a good loadout, swap out two PW from each grouping for a LC to further diversify, and you've got an extra 10 points to make one PF a Thunderhammer and grab an extra meltabomb. Great idea! I didnt think about the DC, and with that setup that would definitely put the fear down on the table. I like it, ill have to try it in my game tomorrow. ive been wanting to use DC in my DOA list, but have held back for a while. How have the DC done for you? they look pretty nice to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 The WS5 Thunderhammer is really handy. They take a lot of heat off your RAS for the turn following your main drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Zealous Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 The WS5 Thunderhammer is really handy.They take a lot of heat off your RAS for the turn following your main drop. I bet. I look forward to using their DC nastiness against the guys on saturday. Good, my RAS tend to get primaried pretty quick on the drop, so thatll definitely play into my list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 VGV with Storm Shields are pretty much essential to a successful all DoA list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Zealous Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 VGV with Storm Shields are pretty much essential to a successful all DoA list Huh. Ill take your word for it, since im pretty much the only guy i know who runs a full DoA list at both stores i go to. Im just kinda hesistant on spending 20 points per guy if all they do is take shots for the others. Back in the SM codex before BA, i ran a 5 man vanguard with LC/SS per guy, and they didnt do well. Do they generally do better in this codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 It is to do with synergy. Depending on your opponent you can either combat squad into an even split of 2 SS, 1 TH and 2 PW per 5 man squad... or if you really need to hold something up split into 4 SS, 1 TH and then 4 PW and 1 TH. Send the SS squad in to just bog down something that you absolutely need to hold up. You are spending 20pts per model on something to not only take hits for the other guys in the squad, but to take hits for the other guys in the rest of the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Zealous Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 It is to do with synergy. Depending on your opponent you can either combat squad into an even split of 2 SS, 1 TH and 2 PW per 5 man squad... or if you really need to hold something up split into 4 SS, 1 TH and then 4 PW and 1 TH. Send the SS squad in to just bog down something that you absolutely need to hold up. You are spending 20pts per model on something to not only take hits for the other guys in the squad, but to take hits for the other guys in the rest of the army. Dang didnt even think of that. When you put it like that, it makes waaaay more sense now. Ill playtest the SS VV and the other setup in my next game, then decide how to build the squad. That sounds like alot of fun to inflict on someones units lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I haven't missed the storm shields to be honest. My Vanguard work best against stuff that has no business being in combat, like devastators, bikes, troops, etc. 65 points for a 1 wound T4 model is just too much. You had it right when you said the Vanguard drop in and murder something. Anything they do after that is a bonus. Rather than pump more points into defending the vanguard against circumstance, the extra ~6 special weapons spread through the army I reckon makes more difference. Honestly I think you should try both out. Sometimes SS are nice, but having infernus pistols on everyone is nice as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Well, by playing DoA list you are restricting your options. You are not allowing yourself Baals, Predators and Attack Bikes, so you need to use RAS with Meltaguns as your anti tank shooting. You aren't allowing yourself Terminators to hold up really hard units and present a big threat, so the VGV are needed. Personally, I would go with Dante and a Librarian with just a Jump Pack as my HQs. That allows you to take the excellent Sanguinary Guard which can cut through any infantry in the game if they get the charge and still use them as scoring troops. It also lets you get one of your RAS meltagun squads into position to slag an enemy armoured target with those 2 Meltaguns and Inferno Pistol. Honour Guard are good too. You should consider running an Honour Guard unit with 4 meltaguns and a Thunder Hammer along with Dante to assassinate heavily armoured targets. You could theoretically take out one RAS unit from your 3, take a 10 man VGV squad and a Sanguinary Guard squad with a Chapter Banner and Power Fist, swap Dante for Astorath and see how you get on with that. You should possibly have points left for an Honour Guard. That's 25 scoring models and enough versatility to deal with several different enemies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Zealous Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 I haven't missed the storm shields to be honest. My Vanguard work best against stuff that has no business being in combat, like devastators, bikes, etc. 65 points for a 1 wound T4 model is just too much. You had it right when you said the Vanguard drop in and murder something. Anything they do after that is a bonus. Rather than pump more points into defending the vanguard against circumstance, the extra ~6 special weapons spread through the army I reckon makes more difference. Honestly I think you should try both out. Sometimes SS are nice, but having infernus pistols on everyone is nice as well. Generally, thats how ive used VV in the past, but id also snipe deadly CC guys who were isolated. At first, my plan for VV was for 2 5 man squads to pop in and tie up a few frontline squads of the enemy battleline while my RAS oriented themselves on target after deepstriking in. I normally run Asto, Libby, and the priests as pairs in my RAS to make em mini deathstars, but they have that turn when they deep strike that they are vulnerable. Yea, thats what im gonna do. Im prolly picking up another box or 2 of DC marines in the future so i always can swap out options or whatnot. I really appreciate yours and SamaNagol's differing points of view, due to the fact that you both articulate valid options for the VV while still working it into a larger DoA army. Reading the DoA article that was compiled in the Blood Angels section helped, but it didnt help me determine the exact niche i wanted to fill with VV. Ill let you both know how your list worked out and the recommendations that SamaNagol set forth. Hopefully ill get in 2 games in order to try em out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Zealous Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Well, by playing DoA list you are restricting your options. You are not allowing yourself Baals, Predators and Attack Bikes, so you need to use RAS with Meltaguns as your anti tank shooting. You aren't allowing yourself Terminators to hold up really hard units and present a big threat, so the VGV are needed. Personally, I would go with Dante and a Librarian with just a Jump Pack as my HQs. That allows you to take the excellent Sanguinary Guard which can cut through any infantry in the game if they get the charge and still use them as scoring troops. It also lets you get one of your RAS meltagun squads into position to slag an enemy armoured target with those 2 Meltaguns and Inferno Pistol. Honour Guard are good too. You should consider running an Honour Guard unit with 4 meltaguns and a Thunder Hammer along with Dante to assassinate heavily armoured targets. You could theoretically take out one RAS unit from your 3, take a 10 man VGV squad and a Sanguinary Guard squad with a Chapter Banner and Power Fist, swap Dante for Astorath and see how you get on with that. You should possibly have points left for an Honour Guard. That's 25 scoring models and enough versatility to deal with several different enemies A fine idea, and one i didnt consider. That is a pretty good alternative to my normal lists, but ive generally found sang guard to be kinda medium/low in their efficacy. I have been toying around with the Honor guard and Dante though, but thatll be for when i get the models later. Luckily, i have 2 squads of sang guard for my army, so that is taken care of when i consider your version of the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Zealous Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 So i was finally able to play the new list against a SM army using 5 Dreadnoughts.... Lets just say the DC definitely got their points back and the Vanguard kicked massive tail in the name of Sanguinius! The army in general did pretty dang good, and the DC definitely worked well in conjunction with the Vanguard CS's and the main RAS push. I think the Vanguard alone chalked up 2 Ironclads by themselves, and a Tac squad/Master of the forge/Captain with help from a RAS. Thanks for the list Mezkh, its definitely a keeper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Nice to hear it the Angels took some names :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec.ops Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Why is it when anyone mentions VV people have an instant hard on for SS? (rhetorical question) If you are trying to save your VV you are using the wrong. Below, seems to be the basis of the mainstream consensus of what a good VV load out is. VV: 5xJP and 5xSS = 265 (not including weapons) Once you start to add weapons these 5 guys you start climbing into the 300’s easily. To me this is expensive and inefficient plus you also lose your +1 ATK bonus due to the SS. My question is if anyone is willing to cough up 300+ points on 5 guys then why not spend a few more points and get a deep striking Crusader filled with SS Termies. You don’t have first turn CC strike but you now have two heavily defendable threats that pack a lot of offensive power and everyone has a SS – Yay! :unsure: (sarcasm) I believe VV work best when they are cheap and their roll is understood to be suicidal. the more points spent on defense the less efficient they are and the further they drift from their original purpose. To demonstrate my VV philosophy I simply give each guy a PW and call it a day. VV: 5xJP and 5xPW = 225 Cheap and efficient If they miss their mark, sucks for me, but since they are so cheap I can field more VV and/ or RAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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