Sanguinarian Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Much to my dismay, I keep reading how people have had their DC kited away or are afraid to use DC because they could be kited, etc., etc. I have played almost 25 games with the new C:BA and about 40-50 games with 3rd Edition and I have NEVER had my Death Company kited around the board. Because they do Rage, I try to set them behind another unit that they can generally pulverize. I have had about every result possible aside from kiting. However, I have had them march across the board for 3 turns without ever reaching their target, but only after they sliced thru 3x10 squads of DE Warriors. I know it mainly happens because most armies "castle" their deployment, but I would like more specifics so that we SONS OF SANGUINIUS CAN TACTICALLY ENSURE THAT IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN!!! So, if you have ever been led around by the nose in 5th Edition (C:BA 2010), please explain the following: WHO? (Who was your opponent?) WHAT? (What was the mission?) WHERE? (Where did you deploy your DC in relation to the rest of your army?) WHEN? (When did you lose control of DC? Explain before and after if you can.) WHY? (Why did you lose control? Moreso what could you have done differently to either make your DC more effective (if they weren't) and/or less susceptible to being kited away from the action, etc?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Eldar. Seize Ground. Alongside other rhino(s). When their rhino was popped the turn before they would have been delivered. They were led around by the nose by an empty Falcon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanguinarian Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Eldar.Seize Ground. Alongside other rhino(s). When their rhino was popped the turn before they would have been delivered. They were led around by the nose by an empty Falcon. I forgot to mention that my games played in 3rd Edition were irrelevant to this conversation since they were controllable via a Chaplain. IMHO, I believe DC are most effective if they are delivered in the 2 vehicles that are exclusive to BA: deep-striking Land Raiders and/or Storm Ravens. But since you used a Rhino, let's examine that a bit. Might you have been able to keep them in Reserves until key elements were engaged and use them as a mop-up unit or objective stealer? Knowing how fast Eldar are, that Falcon probably popped your Rhino in the rear and led you away from your advancing army, right? Thus the necessity to deliver them behind enemy lines via DSing a LR or two!?! Also, they definitely need "kite-support" to pop that pesky empty transport, which really isn't an enemy unit, but rather an enemy model. My BRB is not handy to clarify Rage rule. Being that our Rhinos are Fast, maybe keep them in hiding until the path is clear, but again, if the Falcon screamed across the board and popped you in the rear-end, you can't do anything about that except aim all HKs at that SOB!!! Thanks for the info. Next case or anyone else want to elaborate on this scenario? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 1) Vehicles are units or parts of units. Period. 2) Rage says 'closest visable enemy'. So thats any enemy- infantry, vehicle, artillery, superheavy etc. You might talk with your opponent about flyers *assuming apocalypse here* and add 12" to their distance or discount them all together if theres any other visible target. As an eldar player my suggestion would be to either 1) use shield of sanguinius to protect your vehicles or 2) pop smoke if your opponent has intelligently taken runes of warding. Of course, the best way to kill a falcon tends to be with Landspeeder Typhoons or Plasma-packing bike squads in my experience. Of course, if he had any other tanks the eldar player probly could have done the same thing with them... so you have to be careful and watch the angles. Atleast eldar skimmers are expensive! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I have one experience with DC against my mates tau that is particularly appropriate, I run a flying circus and in this particular game i was trying out dc. he set up his Broadsides and pathfinders in a tall riun on one corner of the board, realising after many games that those pathfinders are priority targets I chose to drop my DC with JP's so that the ruin was between my DC and the rest of his army. long story short my DC massacred both units in the next 2 turns then moved toward the centre of the board before my opponent declared. Now after the game my mate was saying that he wished he had a pyrahna in order to kite the DC around the board, but the thing is as I pointed out to him it wouldn't have helped. I was able to DS close enough to his other units that for his pyrahna to be able to "kite" my DC they would have easily been within charge range, 6-12', and a charge range that would have allowed me to just turn around and STILL proceed to devastate that corner of the table. The trick with DC is both target selection and in my use of them, area selection, they are also great at area denial as your opponent wont want to go near them if he doesn't have too. In short DC, particularly JP DC are AWESOME! when used as a reserve hammer unit, as youir opponent either must ignore them in favour of other targets, consentrate obscene ammounts of fire power to kill them or pick at them and hope to hold them in CC (unlikely). I proposed this use for JP DC way back when the new codex first came out and now I'm able to start gathering some experience with them and its supporting my idea so far, with one notable exception where a TH wielding DC couldnt kill 3 warriors for 3 game turns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I've only used DC once in the new codex (not counting really silly Kill Team games. DC in kill team is hilarious!). They moved forward behind a line of my vehicles to block LOS. Then a Baal predator outflanked behind me, they turned and killed it. Spent the rest of the game too far away to matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServoBadger Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I've never been a great player of this game, but... My normal Ork opponent has gotten extremely good at kiting my JP DC around the table using Deffkoptas and empty Trukks, and occasionally dumping them next to a Killer Kan or two which usually ends badly for me. The Deffkoptas with their scout move are easy enough to position as the closest enemy to the DC right at the start of the game, and then proceed to drag them all over the table - and they're cheap enough that it doesn't really matter to him if I manage to catch and kill them. If the DC DO end up in close combat with something, any empty Trukks he has will immediately converge on their location, so that the DC have to waste another turn or two getting rid of them before they can move off again. I haven't experimented with deep striking the DC, but I expect that if I did they'd become the priority target of the looted wagon with the boomgun he tends to include. Because of this I now rarely take DC, and have given their spot to the Sanguinary Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Daboarder has it right on. Plus when using DC you need to figure out at what point is taking a rhino worth the points vs just taking jump packs as well as the tactical aspect of taking a rhino. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 What's the tactical aspect of taking jump packs? Letting your DC run across the board heedless of cover towards the nearest enemy they can see AND paying a ridiculous amount of points per model? Sorry, I'm just a bit miffed after our new 'dex made taking JP Death Co. the worst decision one could make in unit selection. Anyway, I haven't used DC in a rhino since that incident. I've taken small squads in Razorbacks and once a death star Lemartes+10DC in a Raven.. my raven's usually reserved for other matters nowadays (TDA&SSLibby+AssaultTermies), though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanguinarian Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Of all the ways to deliver Death to the enemy's face, I like to reserve my Crazies in their flying Redeemer and drop them in next to their Big Brother's (DC Dread) drop-pod. Nine out of ten times it's behind the enemy's frontline which causes them to split their attack or hold back a few units as sacrificial lambs. Trust me, DC LOVES LAMB MEAT!!! And with AV14 and twin lamb-roasting FSCs, it's a force to be reckoned with. Not to mention Big Brother Shish-ka-Bob that's been tearing stuff up since Turn 1. Once the blood has been spilled and the rest of my force has engaged their counterparts, the Assault Ramp drops and my precious cargo can get their fill of blood and guts. I liken my strategy to that of LOTR:ROTK when the "undead" unleashed havoc from the docks and then cleaned up the Fields. This was the 2nd wave of attack. AFTER the horsie-people did their thing. Same tactic here. Classic Hammer & Anvil - DC being the hammer squishing the enemy against the anvil from behind or rolling up a flank! I have also found that I prefer to equip my 10 Goons with Bolters instead of Pistols (9xBG, 5xPS, 1xIP, 1xPF, 1xTH) just in case someone tries to tempt my guys out in the open. I don't miss the extra attack since my Reclusiarch gives me rerolls. It works for me and elevates the DC fear factor back to where it's supposed to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 What's the tactical aspect of taking jump packs? Letting your DC run across the board heedless of cover towards the nearest enemy they can see AND paying a ridiculous amount of points per model? Sorry, I'm just a bit miffed after our new 'dex made taking JP Death Co. the worst decision one could make in unit selection. Anyway, I haven't used DC in a rhino since that incident. I've taken small squads in Razorbacks and once a death star Lemartes+10DC in a Raven.. my raven's usually reserved for other matters nowadays (TDA&SSLibby+AssaultTermies), though. JP Death company are a LOT harder to kite moving 12" over 6" to get them into assault range of nice targets. Deepstrike+run. JP the only way to run them in a DoA army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 What's the tactical aspect of taking jump packs? Letting your DC run across the board heedless of cover towards the nearest enemy they can see AND paying a ridiculous amount of points per model? Sorry, I'm just a bit miffed after our new 'dex made taking JP Death Co. the worst decision one could make in unit selection. Anyway, I haven't used DC in a rhino since that incident. I've taken small squads in Razorbacks and once a death star Lemartes+10DC in a Raven.. my raven's usually reserved for other matters nowadays (TDA&SSLibby+AssaultTermies), though. Try DSing them behind your opponent on Turn 2 within 6-12 of a number of juicy targets, your opponent wont be able to kite you without getting closer to your DC than 6 at which point it becomes less of a kite and more of a delayign sacrifise. Oh and always take a thunder hammer for the added benefit against most vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korloth Darkwolf Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I have been running a DC only list and my opponents are very much aware of how to handle the units in Razorbacks (my 1500 point list has four TLAC/TLLC razorbacks full of DC plus Astorath and a few JPDC as a shield for him but will be changing with the introduction of a pair of Redeemers/Crusaders). I like the idea of an all DC list but know it isn't ever going to work with the units I have. They pop as many transports on turn one as they can, then position a silly unit (gaunts, barebones boyz and the like) closer to the newly visible DC than one of their combat units but so that the rage move takes them just out of range of the DC assaulting the tougher unit (like the Swarmlord, Thraka and Nobz, Dante with Sanguinary Guard etc). So I'm left with the choice of shooting the silly unit, and then only assaulting the remains of it, or do nothing. Next turn the tougher units can get the charge on me and then the advantages of DC in combat are pretty much gone. Hence why the DC list will gather some dust for a while Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I always take a TH or PF with my DC, I'm saying that JP DC are the worst selection one could make because of the cost of the pack. I was willing to pay 35pts for JP DC when they had rending and could be controlled by a Chaplain (even without the control).. but having to pay for their weapons in addition to the packs is terrible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 perhaps they are the "worst" unit in the codex but they are far from a bad unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 It happened to me once in 5th. Who - Space Marine Biker list - over 25-30 bikes happened second turn, some meltas took out the LR they were in and i charged them into assault with 2 squads of bikes, killed all but one. he ran from combat and used that one bike to lead my poor DC to the far corner of the board, just staying far enough to keep me from assault. By the time i caught and killed it, i was 3 feet away from anybody else, and it was turn 5. Since then, i have been loading them up in a stormraven and throwing them 2 feet across the board on turn one, hasnt happened since. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2610939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 What makes you say Death Company in a raider is a big benefit vs. Say Jump Pack DoA Deep Strikes or Drop Pod deep strikes both of which are highly accurate and far safer then land raiders? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2611021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I just can't stand paying 15pts per model for a jump pack on a 1 wound model, not to mention the lack of control. If I pay for a Land Raider or, even better, a Storm Raven, I'm getting something in addition to transport (albeit at a slightly higher cost). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2611023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Your DC only have to move towards a unit. They dont have to assault towards it. They don't have to Run towards it, nor are the prohibited from Running in another direction. You must be playing on some mythical expansive and empty boards in order to get kited for more than 1 turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2611158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 plus you're moving the closest model full speed ahead, and the rest are only restricted by 2" coherency. So if someone moves a Landspeeder next to you, a unit with Jumppacks can still cover a lot of ground towards a good target to assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2611187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebG Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 My DC are generally brought in via Stormraven along with a DC Dread and Recluisarch. Kiting has never been a problem but I've only a) played a couple of games with this edition and :pinch: plated slow(er) marine armies. One problem I did have last game though was (after destroying 3x Thunderwolf cav and a Thunderwolf Lord) instead of going off after Logan and him chums they raged right into the near by drop pod. They destroyed it in combat straight away then stood exposed and got shot to bits. Next turn they moved all of 1" into the next drop pod, destroyed it and, again, stood where Logan and friends could just shoot them up. Next turn I was left with no remaining DC and an imobilised Dread. He got his arms shot off then charged by Logan. That was that. So, not kited as such, but definitely distracted to their doom and something I could do nothing about! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2611311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanguinarian Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 What makes you say Death Company in a raider is a big benefit vs. Say Jump Pack DoA Deep Strikes or Drop Pod deep strikes both of which are highly accurate and far safer then land raiders? I've tried both and got shot to pieces. I prefer the shock and awe of the moment when the flying redeemer appears 6" from my dread's drop-pod and unleashes holy hell behind the enemy's line. Besides, I'm still in control of them while they're embarked. As soon as they land - DoA or DP - they're in the open with tunnel vision of death. Not bad depending where they land, but in the open nonetheless. If it results in dead bad guys then that's most important. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2611357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 What's the tactical aspect of taking jump packs? Letting your DC run across the board heedless of cover towards the nearest enemy they can see AND paying a ridiculous amount of points per model? Since it was already answered by several other posts...i will simply say...really? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2611384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Your DC only have to move towards a unit. They dont have to assault towards it. They don't have to Run towards it, nor are the prohibited from Running in another direction. You must be playing on some mythical expansive and empty boards in order to get kited for more than 1 turn. In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy. In the Shooting phase, they are free to decide whether to run, but if they do they must run towards the closest visible enemy. In the Assault phase they must always consolidate towards the closest visible enemy. So no, you don't have to assault the nearest unit, but your running and consolidating moves are out of your hands. And 35pts per model is too much. Were it 25 I might justify it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/218906-kite-proofing-your-dc/#findComment-2611409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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