Does painting require skill or talent?

[Brother_Ovis]

To keep things short - do you think that painting minis requires some special 'artistic' talent or skill to develop? I mean decent tabletop quality, not some GD winners of course*. I dare say that explaining your poor painting performance with lack of some God-given talent is just plain laziness. With access to so many tutorials and guides all over the internet there is no excuse for 'not knowing how to'. To get good results from the get-go you only need two things - a basic knowledge of painting techniques (available EVERYWHERE) and patience to keep things clean and neat.

 

What's your take?

 

*But in my opinion even these are available to everyone, it's just a matter of experience and hard work.

[winterdyne]

Truly sublime examples require innate talent, but that's always the case. But we're talking serious 'oh, that's art' pieces there.

[BlackSpike]

You ask the question, and then answer it yourself with "of course everyone can paint!"

Not everyone's skills/talents/patience lies in the same area.*

Using phrases such as "plain laziness" and "no excuse" is not really starting a debate, but more like flaming. Have you had a bad experience with lesser-skilled painters?

 

For decent table-top quality, practice is needed. Lots of it, for some people (me!). Less for others.

Tutorials are good for informing you of techniques, but actually putting it into practice means picking up a brush, and not putting it down until you get it right!

I do think most people can paint to acceptable table-top quality, if they want to put the time and effort in, and i sometimes do despair at the low level of painting I see, wanting to cry out "If you bothered to pick up a brush, why didn't you bother to open you eyes while using it?!?", but beyond that, each to their own. :lol:

 

I don't paint to make each model a GD Winning work of art, that will stand up to examination under a microscope.

I paint to make my army look quite nice when on the table, a few feet away.

 

I'm never going to paint a GD Winner.

I don't have the patience to learn the techniques for that level of detail, and I don't have the artistic temperament/creative flair needed. Maybe I could learn them, eventually, but I have other things to be doing (Not laziness, prioritising my time.)

 

*One of my other hobbies is Mathematics. I don't think everyone could cope with Euclid's Elements, even with lots of patience and hard work. Some people struggle to keep up with the relatively simple maths needed for 40k! Would you consider it laziness not to be able to MathHammer a multi-assault of complex units?

[Br0ther Rafen]

I think it is a skill to be developed over time, and that it requires a great deal of patience to paint masterfully, and that talent does have a place, but overall it is skill and practice.

[WookieeGunner]

Honestly I think it is a mix of both. But then I think in a scientific manner, so to me what other people call talent I often call biological improvements. For example, I have astigmatism and have large hands, so it is harder for me to hold a brush and see the small miniatures then someone who has perfect eyesight and smaller hands. Now does that give them more "talent"? Depends on how you define it, but it does mean that with equal practice they are more likely to be better than me so by extension more talented.

[Brother_Ovis]

You ask the question, and then answer it yourself with "of course everyone can paint!"

 

No, I asked what YOU think about it, and then stated what I think.

 

Using phrases such as "plain laziness" and "no excuse" is not really starting a debate, but more like flaming. Have you had a bad experience with lesser-skilled painters?

 

Sorry if it feels like flaming to you, I just tend to express my opinions in somewhat decisive manner, people often think it's offensive... Sorry about that. As to the lesser skilled painters - yes, you can call it bad experience, seeing a sloppily painted opposing army definitely subtracts from my gaming pleasure.

 

i sometimes do despair at the low level of painting I see, wanting to cry out "If you bothered to pick up a brush, why didn't you bother to open you eyes while using it?!?"

 

Yes exactly, that's what I'm talking about. If you're not a 5-years old with no real eye-hand coordination, it shouldn't be a problem for you to paint some simple colour scheme on a marine neat and clean. I'm not talking about blending, layering or some microscopic edge highlights, but a neat, even paint job all over a mini, without overlaps, splashes etc. I mean, at the entry tabletop level it's glorified colouring pages :lol:

 

I don't paint to make each model a GD Winning work of art, that will stand up to examination under a microscope.

I paint to make my army look quite nice when on the table, a few feet away.

 

So do I.

 

I'm never going to paint a GD Winner.

I don't have the patience to learn the techniques for that level of detail, and I don't have the artistic temperament/creative flair needed. Maybe I could learn them, eventually, but I have other things to be doing (Not laziness, prioritising my time.)

 

So do I.

 

*One of my other hobbies is Mathematics. I don't think everyone could cope with Euclid's Elements, even with lots of patience and hard work. Some people struggle to keep up with the relatively simple maths needed for 40k! Would you consider it laziness not to be able to MathHammer a multi-assault of complex units?

 

I don't think it's exactly the same. As I said above, I'm talking about an introductory level painting.

[UltraRich]

For me I think its a mix of the two things too.

I look at minis I painted a year ago and the paint is slapped on thickly, there are mould lines, Ive missed detail etc etc.

I remember looking at them and looking minis on this board and thinking mine are as good as them.

Its only now a year in where I actually "see" the things I missed (daft things like rivets, armour joints and other details) that make a model pop when you pick them out.

 

If you have the desire to paint well it takes practice and also boards like this where you can post a mini and let people critique which in turn makes you a better painter. I think you need a level of artistic talent to know which colours go well together but this can be learnt over time.

 

You have to enjoy it too. Ive burnt out on minis where Ive just wanted to finish them and cut corners. If you enjoy it then you can tell in the minis you produce.

 

I paint but I dont play. If I did there is no way Id be able to field an army at the speed I paint so I dont think its lazyness on some players part I think they are painting to a standard they are happy with. As long as all the minis are the same colour and can be identified on the table then theres no issue.

 

Just my 2p worth.

[God Of War]

Neither actually.It just takes a good deal of repetition to perfect your technique.

[BlackSpike]

Brother Ovis: OK, maybe I came across a bit harsh. I apologise.

 

Yes, simple 'colouring by numbers' paint jobs, not going over the lines, to produce 3-colour table-top quality is a technique that anyone can learn.

Even me, with my ham-fists, unsteady hands and lack of colour co-ordination! ;)

 

I tend to make up for not being a better painter with interesting conversions.

(My main army is Orks, and it lets me really mess about with Kustom builds, gubbins and stuff! People concentrate on my strange ideas, adequately painted, rather than on my lack of GD-Winning technique!)

 

UltraRich: Yes, this is the sign of progress; what you thought was adequate, you now see as inferior! :( I look back at my early work and cringe!

And peer-review, constructive criticism, is very useful for improving.

 

It took me a year to get my DeathWing ready for the table! A combination of coming up with ideas, slow, painstaking painting/modelling, and periods of ennui means I have only had the chance to play them once! I still love the models I ended up with, though!

 

I don't think people start on a level playing field. Some have previous experience, or 'natural talent', or 'instinctive ability', whereas others (me) have to work hard to to grasp anything beyond the basics.

 

Practice, practice, practice! You may never win GD, but you'll be a lot better than when you started! :)

[Stolid Fox]

Like anything there are a number of factors. My uncle got me into RPGs and Table Top Gaming and he had a medical issue that gave him severe shakes (and I mean severe... when we dined out he had to ask for the drink to not be filled all the way so he wouldn't spill it); so obviously the effort it would take for him to get even a middling level of skill is far and above what it would take me. Because of that I sometimes look at the models he left me and am sincerely impressed because if you couldn't tell how much he had to struggle to get the details in, it actually inspires me to keep trying.

[Commander Sasha]

Precluding medical disabilities, I do still think that different people have different practice-to-results curves; everyone will improve with practice, but with big hands, bad eyesight, and a rock-climbers' 'strength at the cost of dexterity', my painting will never get to be great. My sister, who can do a masterpiece with a ball-point pen, would need a massive amount of training to be as good a climber as me.

 

After 4 years, I have got to the point where my colour-by-numbers painting is good; my best pieces look good to a non-player, but I don't highlight, and I use washes because I can't shade or grade.

 

For my painting to take the next step up, I need a tutor to sit with me and tell me what I'm doing wrong; I know the theory on highlights, I've watched the tutorials on Youtube, but mine still come out like No Parking lines on the shoulderpads.

 

I spin Poi; books can give you ideas, videos can help more, but nothing beats another person standing in front of you saying "you keep getting hit because your elbow's too high", etc.

[MagicMan]

With the new washes, tabletop quality is easily easily achievable.

 

 

I picked one up at Christmas (devlan mud) and i find myself slapping it on everything. I can skip whole stages of shading/layering for an almost as good finish.

[captain sox]

Painting use to be the part of the hobby I disliked. I never thought I'd get any good at it, but I kept at it. I think that I am a decent table top painter, but I have a lot to learn if I want to take it to the next level. The 3 best things to do are: 1. Thin your paints! Use several light coats rather than one thick one. 2. Brush selection. I don't use an airbrush, and I probably never will. I hand paint everything, even tanks. I've learned which brushes to use when, and it really helps. I have about a dozen brushes I can select from, and more than likely I'll be using most on any given mini. 3. Just jump in! I always say to myself (or my cat if she is watching) "Well, I'm ready to ruin all that hard work!" then I proceed to do something new... like a using a wash, or painting eyeballs. Usually I'm not disappointed and end up learning something new!

 

If you have lots of spare bits, practice with those to try different things too. I don't aspire to be a GD painter, just a good tabletop quality, and that suits me just fine!!

 

Most of all, just have fun! This is our hobby aftetr all!

[Seahawk]

As to the lesser skilled painters - yes, you can call it bad experience, seeing a sloppily painted opposing army definitely subtracts from my gaming pleasure.

I think this may be the first obstacle. To expect everyone to have a painting standard that at least matches yours (whether yours is good, okay, or ugly) could be expecting too much. Personally, I find it pleasant just to see a fully painted army coming at me, whether it has shading, or blobby, or whatever, as there are sooo many unpainted armies hitting the tables these days. If looks like it belongs in the universe I'm happy. If they have showcase pieces to look at then great, if not then great. I'm not looking at their minis (or mine) from 1 foot away all the time, so the distance makes up for any failings.

 

What does being able to paint require? At it's basics, skill. As kids we all (or most of us) made finger paintings. We all can do it, but when you reduce the scale it become difficult for some for a wide variety of reasons. Some don't have the fine motor controls, or eyesight, or whatever. Some can be corrected through practice (and thus it becomes a skill) or technology, but some simply can't.

[LardO'Blood]

I can't paint troops well because I just don't have the patience and there usually isn't pose variation, but I can make HQs look nice if I set my mind to it. I also have shakyish hands and bad eyesight (Hence the failure at coloring books...), so it is hard for me to paint details. I am sure I'd do better if I actually went and got a brush that can do details (I currently have two, one is slightly smaller then an earbud plug...) and bought some more paints so I can do flesh and stuff, but I just don't have the cash right now.

Painting is one of those things that practice makes perfect. In my collection, if you arrange each model in a tactical squad from best to worst, the best model will be the second to last one I painted (I always tend to rush the last one), and the worst will be the last model or the first model. It also requires a drive, if you don't have a motivation to paint them, you will be able to see it in the finished model. HQs are fun to paint, they have lots of little bits and bobbins. So naturally, my HQs look better then my troops. I paint troops so they are just good enough to look nice from 2-3 feet away.

[Vindicatus]

You forgot one important quality when listing skill or talent.

 

 

That would be passion.

 

You can be skilled at something, or have a natural talent for something, but unless you have the passion about it to apply those skills or natural grace to whatever it is you're doing, it's always going to come out half-assed. Something you care about deeply is something you're going to put a lot of effort into, trying to master it. That lends it's hand to skill; if you're really that flamed up about wanting to make something JUST right, then you're going to take the time to figure out how to do it, and as it has been said before, keep trying until you get it right.

 

Granted, if you have a natural affinity for something, it's more than likely you're already passionate about it because of it, but that's debatable. Could be that you just haven't found your niche yet.

 

You really have to love what it is you're doing in this hobby to spend countless hours hunched over a figure barely taller than your thumb is long, trying to get that one highlight on a scar just right.

 

Either that, or you're a masochist, in which case I provide soccer-style kicks to the junk for a nominal fee.

[Brother_Ovis]

I assume that being on a miniatures wargame forum I can expect everybody here to be at least a little passionate about their hobby :)

 

One thing to clarify - I'm not talking about masterpieces or showcases, I'm talking about a neat, decent, clean paintjob. IMO the one thing that separates a miniature that pleases the eye from the eyesore is the neatness. A simple, 3 colour paintjob done neat and clean will always beat something done with a myriad advanced techniques but none of them right on-the-spot. And to achieve neat and clean look all you really need is patience to do things without rushing, waiting for your paints to dry, taking time to correct mistakes etc. Do that and you can't go wrong. If you're not really good at something - don't do it on a ready piece, practice first on a spare. Bought a new wash - try it first. Read about blending - try it first. Never tried drybrushing - don't jump with it on your army commander, see how it works on some piece of plastic. In Poland we have this saying: "Don't wear new shoes to a wedding", which really tells it all.

[Vindicatus]

In response, I'm also going to add this:

 

Everyone starts somewhere. Whether they've never touched a brush in their entire life, or they've been an artist for years, in many cases this is the first time they've touched a brush to a model. Skill takes time to accumulate, and having someone distastefully sneering at them from across the table because they hedged a colour or two isn't going to get you many repeat-games.

 

In my town, the vast majority of the people who play are college aged, with some of the highschoolers getting into it as well. What with academics, the piss-poor economy, I rarely expect to face off against an army that's anything but black primer because of the sheer amount of time required to master these things. I honestly don't care either way. Well painted armies mean that I should probably make friends with them and see how they did it, or where, and people who are attempting to I try to befriend to see if I can pass off some of my knowledge to to help them out, get them started with some ideas that they can develop naturally on their own.

 

Yes, I've got a bit of pride in what I do, and I enjoy the compliments my army gets me, but I'd rather share in that pride with others and help them up to that standard than stand on top of that lonely mountain looking down on everyone else.

 

 

Note : The above isn't meant to be inflammatory, but just a personal view. Someone with skill giving these just-starters a cold shoulder and a cocked eyebrow is much more likely to get them to give up on putting in effort to painting than someone who has a grasp giving tips to help them improve.