Sternguard, not the same ol' stuff

[LardO'Blood]

I dont understand why you would want to add a unit to your army with the intention of it having no synergy to the rest of your army. You not adding Pedro or Lysander to the list just to support the one sternguard squad. Their presence on the battle field effects your entire army by giving them stubborn, enhanced cover, more scoring options ect. It the 1 + 1 = 3 theory. All units in your army should work well together and should be able to bring something beneficial to the table not just stand alone and hope for the best.

 

 

I see NO reason why a special character is needed to make sternguard a worthwhile additon in an army. Heck Pedro AND Lysander change the entire makeup of the army, some players don't want that and have sternguard to operate as a solo unit (so no attached character), but as something that synergises in a list! Sternguard come with enough options that you can tailor them quite a bit to what roles you want them to fill, they are rather a superior unit in that sense. They can work very well alongside both those characters (and lets face it, if you're taking pedro, you're taking sternguard) but by no means would i say that sternguard are lacking without such characters around.

 

Sternguard are the best single Infantry unit in C:SM.

 

As mentioned above they have a number of benefits; one of which wasn't mentioned is the fact they have access to cheap Heavy Weapons.

 

Sterguard are the closest, with the possible exception of the attached HQ units, you can get to the versatility of something like Wolf Guard.

Agreed 100%. You can really use them for whatever you want. Play test away to see what you like.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

How much should we ever spend on sternguard? At 250 points they're already pricey!

 

I was thinking of 10 men, heavy flamer, heavy bolter, 3 combi-meltas and a powerfist as a 10 strong unit, that sound like an ok unit?

[DarkGuard]

If you go over 350pts then they are getting way expensive..... Your squad looks similar to how mine is run, though I would suggest you take out the heavy bolter and put in another heavy flamer. With the meltas and flamer you're going to want to get close with that unit, so another heavy flamer (or even just boltgun) would benefit more than a heavy bolter ever will. My squad, is 9 men, power fist, 2 heavy flamers and 4 combi-meltas in a Rhino accompanied by a Librarian and it works well.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Sounds pretty solid DarkGuard!

 

Reason I had the heavy bolter was really for that whole combat squad possibility, one unit moves forward assaulting, the other sits back and blows out as much firepower as possible. Though 2 heavy flamers sounds pretty fun, now as with most sternguard gear...where to find them!?

 

 

Sternguard put me off with the 250+ price tag, but I would like to make a unit down the line. I expect that most would happily give all 10 men combi-meltas with maybe a combi flamer or two built in for a pretty deadly squad (It does actually sound kind of fun and not too major at (only!) a 50 point increase for all that combi-goodness, but I quite like the idea of a couple of combis and some heavies as a general purpose squad that can pick up some slack if other units fall down.

 

I love the idea of sternguard, decent in melee, decent wargear, can be generalist or specialised, improved with special characters, able to ride in rhinos or razorbacks or drop pods. They sort of blend tacticals, assault marines and devastators nicely....more or less they are the epitome of our marines!

[DarkGuard]

If you wanted the possibility to combat squad them than a plasma cannon would be a better idea, maybe two with the other half all carrying combi-meltas or maybe 3 combi-meltas and 2 combi-flamers. And I used Terminator heavy flamer parts for my Sternguard heavy flamers, just cut them off below the elbow, did the same to a bolter power armour arm, and stuck it on with plastic glue. Then use the other bolter arm and put it below the 'handle' on the heavy flamer, and you've got an easy to see and not mistake heavy flamer! Amazing weapons, and I like the fact that a power armoured unit can take them. Fantastic for an all comers army, as they'll destroy light infantry, and put wounds on heavy infantry. They do struggle against Terminators and MCs though, but in that case you have 8 hellfire rounds backing you up, and you can allocate hits to the flamers first.

[Grizzly_bear]

If I may add my own little input.......Me and a friend played a 5000pt joint game....against orks and Chaos marines, between us both we had 30 sterngaurd....it was an objective based game, I fielded Pedro And he feilded Lysander as our HQs with both having chappys in support, now, out of 30 sterngaurd we only lost 8 and took out 20 chaos marines, a dread, LR, 15 korne berserkers, 30 boys and 20 nobz.....lysanders bolter rule was used for 2 turns which took out the CM and beserkers.....then when my stergaurds got into combat with The orks along with kantors rules they battered the orks.

 

And just still sat on the objective....whilst kantor, Lysander and 15 termies went around as a mass unit and battered everything in their path....

 

Hehehehehe BaoOoM

[Race Bannon]

I can't find it ... Lysanders bolter drill works for all bolt weapons (i.e. Heavy Bolters) right?

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Yup it lists:

 

Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Bolters

 

 

How small can sternguard be in order to be effective?

 

Is it ever viable to run 5 man squads with a few combis and a heavy? Or does it really need at least 7-10 men or more?

[DarkGuard]

How small can sternguard be in order to be effective?

 

Is it ever viable to run 5 man squads with a few combis and a heavy? Or does it really need at least 7-10 men or more?

 

I have often wondered this recently, and I believe the answer lies in how you want to use them, and how your equip them. Now the prime purpose of Sternguard IMO should be anti-infantry. Just look at their bolters, you'll see what I mean. Now in a big squad they aren't as reliant on flamers to get multiple hits as they have lots of bolt shots. In small squads however, this changes, as you've only got about 10 bolt shots. Therefore, I believe that if you want them to take out infantry you always need a heavy flamer in small 5 man squad. This means you can hit 4-7 infantry with the template, and still get 8 bolt shots. Then if you want add a couple of combi weapons, maybe 3, but leave a guy unupgraded so you can take a couple of hits on him. I wouldn't run a power fist though, too small. Then load up in a transport of choice, and there you go.

 

The other option, of course, is the 5/6 man squad with two heavy weapons, normally plasma cannons but sometimes lascannons, and shooting out of the top of a Rhino (or good cover), this can be a good squad as well.

 

However, these small squads are support squads, and should be used as such. Don't expect them to successfully spearhead an attack, you just don't have the numbers!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yup it lists:

 

Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Bolters

 

 

How small can sternguard be in order to be effective?

 

Is it ever viable to run 5 man squads with a few combis and a heavy? Or does it really need at least 7-10 men or more?

 

I think this depends on how they're being employed. If they're riding around in an APC splashing things with meltas or combi-weapons, you can probably get away with 5-6 guys. They don't have as much survivability once they're dismounted, of course, but that's true for any of our units. If they're in a defensive role or being drop podded, however, I think you're going to want to max out on models to give them the highest possibility of surviving through the torrents of fire and assaults that they're likely to face.

[Kazehana]

The first thing to remember is that these guys are NOT Tactical Squads.

 

When you put points towards Tactical Squads you aim for one thing; a full, 10-Marine unit with a Heavy Weapon, Special Weapon, and Sarge with a (Insert weapon here). Even if you fully intend to Combat Squad them, that is your only choice; a single 5-Marine Tac Squad in your list is absolutely useless without the options.

 

However, the Sternguard are different. Rather than a huge, 10-Veteran squad you intend to Combat Squad, why not make that squad two 5-Veteran squads?

 

Pros include;

1) Prices stay absolutely the same (The first 5 Veterans cost the exact same as the second 5)

2) Both squads then get an equipped Sarge.

3) You can buy an extra Veteran to fill up a Razorback - you now have 12 Sternguard instead of 10, and two Razorbacks to provide fire support and mobility to both squads!

4) The best of all - two extra cheapo heavy weapons!

 

A 10-Veteran squad that you combat squad to have 2 Vets w/ Lascannons or whatnot sit back and fire away can be 2 5-man Veteran Squads; one with the 2 Heavy Weapons, one with 2 Meltaguns/Flamers/Plasmaguns to help them assault/pop tanks (Seriously, one Vet with a Meltgaun is almost the same price as one with a Combi-Melta - the difference is, it isn't a one shot, so you can direct it at anything that comes their way. Tell me a Hellfire or Dragonfire Round is more useful than a Meltagun shot, range be damned.)

 

Honestly I see absolutely no point in ever buying a large Sternguard squad if you intend to combat squad them; the only time I can ever, ever see that happening is due to list restraints wherein you bring 2 Dreads or Term squads, or one of each. And I'd probably choose these guys over either if I had to.

 

Honestly, the biggest part of the Sternguard, in my opinion, is that their staggering versatility is open to them regardless of how many are in the squad.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

...a single 5-Marine Tac Squad in your list is absolutely useless without the options.

 

Er... No.

 

Such a unit can suffice as a sacrifical goat, albeit not the cheapest you could manage.

[Kazehana]

Granted. I also don't like sacrificial goats, and even so you could still take a 10-man squad, get the free Heavy Weapon, combat squad 5 bolter Marines, and send them forward. You get your 5-man sacrifice, and still get a scoring unit with free heavy sitting at a home objective. This isn't taking into account the free special, too.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I like sternguard, but they seem a support unit anyway, not a spearhead unit. After all we're paying for those special ammo bolters, which work well with some of the heavy weapons. The 2 attacks to me seem like something worthwhile for a full squad, but not something the squad is going to be used for without assault weapons

 

I like the idea of 2 small sternguard units though, with heavies.

[Phlegon]

I have had great success with a 6 man unit w/ 2 heavy flamers 4 combi meltas and a sgt w/ a power fist. I group them with a libby in a rhino an they support my tacticals.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Is that because the sternguard use flamers and ammo thin out enemies they fight, so that even in melee the enemy is manageable for a small sternguard unit? Or do they still struggle when fighting in such short range?

 

I take it the combis are for added punch to vehicles and tough enemies.

 

And would you say the libby boosts their survival a lot?

 

 

Getting quite into the idea of running sternguard now ;)

[DarkGuard]

I can answer the part about the Libby, and he never adds survival for my Sternguard. He's too fragile with only two wounds and power armour, and no choice of a invulnerable save unless in Terminator armour, it means I don't want to give him wounds. Instead, the Libby rides with the Sternguard, but only rarely gets out, preferring to either Null Zone or Avenger from inside the Rhino. The Sternguard do the work outside themselves, only getting help from the Libby through Null Zone if they need it (like Vengeance rounds on Thousand Sons). I'd imagine the rest of it is more or less spot on.

 

Recently, I've started using Vulkan again, and so he runs with a 5 man Sternguard squad with two heavy flamers and threee combi-meltas in a Razorback. While this unit didn't do anything first game (pinned when Razorback blew up, I roll 12s for Ld10 pinning tests), in the second game they killed a Necron Lord (before he got back up), and helped to kill off another unit which led to phase out. If I continue using Vulkan I look forward to seeing what these guys can do, as what he's done to my combi-flamer, flamer, multi-melta squads is horrible for the enemy :).

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Sounds weird for the libby to sit in the rhino from a soldiers point of view

 

* Come on librarian (insert name) the enemy awaits!

& Actually im feeling a bit peaky, you go, i'll just sit in here and take some paracetamol!

 

 

But vulkan sounds like a fun partner for the sternguard ;)

[DarkGuard]

Well with all that concentrating the poor guy is bound to have headaches. You don't want to add to his pains by making him dodge bullets and listen to explosions and battle cries do you? :wallbash:

 

And yes, Vulkan, is an excellent partner to flamer/melta Sternguard, and boost the rest of your army. However, in low point games your trade off is Combat Tactics, psychic defence and Null Zone, plus 90pts, so you need to decide whether thats worth it. Unlike the Libby though you can take him out the Rhino, as he can provide some meaningful CC support for your Sternguard.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I quite like Vulkans powers, I just find him a little too....convenient? I dunno, its something about the way hes always cropping up thanks to the fact he improves our best anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons, to the point that they can probably cover everything in between, whilst packing a formidable fighting profile for actually not too many points. It sounds silly to dislike the plethora of good things about him, but he almost seems to put himself a cut above the other special characters.

 

I plan on running Calgar and his Honour Guard (some day...over the rainbow..) I doubt Calgar would make the unit as powerful as vulkan can, but perhaps if he rolled with them, he could chomp his way through a heck of a lot of stuff and make them harder to take out in a fight..(its also why i asked about small units, Calgar and co aren't gonna be leaving many points free)

[bladeofdeath3]

I run sternguard in either 3 types of squads, long range anti-tank, short range anti-tank, and anti-heavy infantry.

 

The long range anti-tank squad consists of 5 men with 2 lascannons. I have found this the most efficient way to get 2 lascannons in 1 squad. I find it a waste to put lascannons in tactical squads since they shine best when they're mobile and getting up close and personal. While it is cheaper to put 2 lascannons in 2 tactical squads, it requires 2 squads to shoot at the same target if the 1st lascannon doesn't do the job. Also, missile launchers are free and are more than capable of taking out lighter armor. It is a very cheap squad and if they knock out a heavy tank, they can easily make their points up.

 

The short range anti-tank squad is a 10 man unit with 2 melta guns and a whole lot of combi-meltas and a power fist. They sit in a rhino and drive up to heavy armor and destroy it or come down in a drop pod. If I can spare the points, I will run 8 combi-meltas in that squad (that's right, the sarge has a combi-plasma). I found they work fairly well, but it is a fairly expensive unit. What is good about combi-weapons is that you keep your special ammo. They're very versatile and can handle a myriad of situations.

 

The anti heavy infantry squad is like the short range anti-tank squad, but instead of combi-meltas and meltaguns, there's combi-plasmas and plasma guns. The only difference is that the sarge doesn't have a combi-plasma, as I don't want him to die on an overheat and lose the powerfist. They work fairly well at knocking down terminators, etc etc. I put them in a drop pod most of the time and destroy heavy units. You should see your opponent's face after his expensive terminator unit goes up in smoke to a bunch of sternguard veterans.

 

Sternguard squads are very versatile units, but they do have their limitations. Without Kantor, they can't hold objectives, and in large numbers they are very expensive. While they are decent at anti-infantry, it's not worth it to bring them just to hunt infantry. That's what tactical and devastator squads are for.

[Xeonic]

Since you mention devs, I have to rant. Sternguard do slmost everything devastators do, but *better* for about the same points cost.

Sternguard 5 man with 2 lascannon = 155

Devastator 5 man with 2 lascannon = 160

Devs can spam HBs or other low end weapons cheaper of course, a 5 man squad with 4 ML is only 150.

It's worth noting at this point that for far less than the costing of a 5 man 2 HB devs you can just take a dakka pred and get an AV13 pillbox with complimentary autocannon as well.

 

The only way devastators are superior to sternguard are when fielded with 4 of a given heavy weapon(and thus either no ablative wounds or being fairly expensive), just because sternguard cannot pack as many missile launchers into a single FoC, which is as it should be since they're a quality over quantity thing, sternguard provide better fire support at range as a 5 man squad, with a discount on heavy weapons, but only being able to take two. Of course, on the same merit, a lascannon costs them what a ML costs devastators.

Of course the sternguard have the advantage within 30" vs soft targets as well thanks to uber bolter ammos(also one of the reasons I said plasma cannon would go well with anti personnel sternguard, both potent, and mesh fairly well with 30" bolter range!). Given that devastator equivalents in most of the marine books(including chaos space marines IMO) are superior via special rules and/or re-costing, in our book they are IMO a fairly non competitive second string choice(shame because they are so fluffy and cool).

 

Back on topic: I'm not sure I'd ever give my sarge a combi-plas and powerfist, even giving yourself chance of losing that fist is bad IMO(I'm bad with plasma on my fistysarges though!).

In fact, I'm not sure sternguard are the best unit to be spamming plasma in(plus rolling seperate to hit rolls for every model as per the BRB rules on rapidfire overheats is moderately aggravating), but the idea of getting 10 models to rapidfire combi-plas is appealing to me...

 

On the note of using multiple 5 man sternguard set up to do a specific task, you can economize on your precious elites slots(go ahead, tell me they're not precious!) by merely taking a 10 man unit with 2 heavy weapons and combat squadding down a into a 5 man unit with a sarge, 4-5 combis and a rhino, and a 5 man unit with two heavies in cover. This way you could take a pair of dreads, or any variety termies, a humble and overlooked Techmarine or even *gasp* Legion of the Damned, without much in the way of negative effect(the close specialized squad would cost 10-15 pts more with combis instead of actual specials)much to the same effect. Yes, two 5 man units of sternguard cost the same points, but the Elites slots at least for me, are hotly contested. It is also worth noting as you said that the sarge is costed the same as the rest of the veterans, but he has the same statline and wargear so that's not really shocking to me. Obviously the actual specials would be more beneficial in certain circumstances of course.

[DarkGuard]

The one reason why I wouldn't take a 10 man Sternguard with heavy weapons and combis, then combat squad them chucking combis in a Rhino/Razorback and heavies in cover is surmised in two words: heavy. flamers. If I didn't love heavy flamers so much I'd do that if I wanted a cheap Devy squad and a fast reaction force while keeping my Rifleman Dreads, but I firmly believe that heavy flamers, like combi-meltas, are one of the best upgrades on Sternguard because they help expand their damage potential against infantry, while combi-meltas allows them to take down tanks.

 

But that's my views, and I daresay other people do use Dev varients and just combis to good success. Personally though, unless I was in a proper competitive environment, I'd use Devs if I wanted a Dev squad, not Sternguard. To me, keeping Sternguard towards the back of your lines, spraying covering fire seems so mundane and such a waste, and I'd rather be getting my hellfire rounds and heavy flamers within range.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Any 2 models can take a heavy right? Does that mean even the sarge could sneak a lascannon and a powerfist in? >.> Would be an......interesting combo..

 

I like the way this convo is going, its helping explore just how versatile the unit is. We can make it an assault unit, a heavy support unit, or something in between...

[Arkios]

Negative, only two "Veterans" can take special and/or heavy weapons, and the "Space Marine Sergeant" is technically not a "Veteran". However, the Sergeant ALONE has access to special close combat weapons, the Plasma Pistol, and Melta Bombs.

 

Also note, ANY model (veteran or sergeant) has access to 5 point combi-bolters (and lolstormbolters).