If Loken came back as a dreadnought.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

He might do better without it. ;)

[Ju'kosian]

If they follow the plot from the Collected visions book then Tarik would be alive, I remember him being depicted as a chaos commander.

So who knows, he might have sold his soul to chaos in his final moment..

Grulgor got ressurected too..

 

The deathguard dreadnought that they could use to get Loken in, is Huron-fal, he had a little crack in his armour or something like that..

Presumed if the chassis did not receive further damage in the battle's after the Virus bombing And the orbital bombardements after that..

Rylanor was guarding some shelter, and probably got Tarvitz and the rest in before the orbital bombardment.. or during.. doesn't matter much,

they are probably in there.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

If they follow the plot from the Collected visions book...

 

Then the Justaerin Terminators belong to the Emperor's Children.

 

That book, whilst delightful for the most part, has some major inconsistencies because it was released before the HH series was planned, so you can't use that a basis for an argument.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Jesus.

 

On a more unofficial note, at my very first Horus Heresy meeting, I said that it looked far too conclusive - that Loken coming back was cool as hell, but would seem unrealistic, because of the way his last scene had been written. Surviving those odds looked unrealistic.

 

However, the fact is that he's alive. Dan never wanted him dead, and that's all there is to it.

 

I have been wondering about this. Now that you have had time to think more and even write some of the HH stuff, has your thoughts on this changed?

 

As some one who thought he lived from early on, i have felt that there was LOTS of hints this would be true. Most people ignored / chalked it up to bad editing or writing. For others the foreshadowing flew over their head. I have spent MANY hours arguing that Loken and others could /did live. I under stand that Dan Wanted him to live so he will but i wonder. Do you feel that enough has been done to make it a good story? Could you maybe point to what you feel was the best bit of foreshadowing on this point? Here are the ones that come to me now..

 

1) Loken had two fights with Lucius. They each won one. This begs for a tie breaker. If Loken died there could not be one.

 

2) Loken on two occasions talks about the immortality of the Astartes. Once in a vision when he joins the Mornvaul, the other when his remebracer asked him about it. To me this was a sign that he would live for a LONG time. I felt he would answer this question with his long life. To have this much talk from him about this and then have him die on Istvaan III would be a waste. Seems like the kind of thing that would not make it out of editing. Also to the point of the thread, to live a long time as a dreadnought is nothing special.

 

3) To me, many/ most of the HH books seem to be written from the perspective of Survivors. When i read and reread Horus Rising, i got the feeling from the first lines that this was a story being told long after they happen. The kind of story you can not tell if you are dead.

 

There are others but as has been said before, we have talked about this at length. I just really wish we could talk more about what Loken will do Next and get past the IF he will make it.

 

The deathguard dreadnought that they could use to get Loken in, is Huron-fal, he had a little crack in his armour or something like that..

Presumed if the chassis did not receive further damage in the battle's after the Virus bombing And the orbital bombardements after that..

Sorry but that would be a deal breaker for me. Huron-fal set his reactor to self destruct. After Ullis Temeter got his men into bunkers he an Huron-fal took their own lives so that Horus would not have that honor. The resulting explosion could be seen from orbit. Even all the kings horses and all his men could not put Huron-fal back together again......

[Cyrox]

Guys, :cuss leave it now

 

He is alive. Its been confirmed

 

Lets wait and see how they bring him back

[Captain Juan Juarez]

He is alive. Its been confirmed...

 

That doesn't make it right...

[Pulse]

It doesn't make it wrong either.

[lee265]

It makes it Power armour, in a space marine book. woo-hoo so original.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It doesn't make it wrong either.

 

It does, in my opinion.. But then it's only my opinion and no one cares *cue violins*

[Kazehana]

The problem is you're arguing a futile argument, for even if the whole site itself went up in arms over Loken being alive, or dead, the outcome would remain unchanged. The discussion of whether he's alive or dead is as good as over now that official confirmation of his status has been given; all that's left is to discuss the how, and what he may accomplish yet.

 

You could say that it's because nobody cares about your opinion, but that's a very selfish way to look at it.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Actually, 55,000 people all saying, "Die, Loken, die!" would be quite interesting. I actually think it might affect later books considering the fraction of consumers we represent added to the other people crying out. But again, that would take about 55,000 people.

[lee265]

well to come back to life my bet is that raylanor was guarding a hangart. the craft in there probably wasn't capable of warp travel since there wasn't a navigator with so they eithor join up with the retreating loalist from what was it istavan V, or dorn sent a group to discover what happened there. Given Loken was confirmed as Alive by A D-B who states that it felt kinda final he might have some prosthetics added to him but I doubt he will be a dreadnaught. He still has to have a third fight with luscious and it would be cheap if he was in a machine designed to kill vehicals and ignor troops.

[Ashe Darke]

Actually, 55,000 people all saying, "Die, Loken, die!" would be quite interesting. I actually think it might affect later books considering the fraction of consumers we represent added to the other people crying out. But again, that would take about 55,000 people.

That's assuming that Loken dying is worth compromising what they have planned. If they feel people would be happier with their plans instead of him dying then I doubt they would, not that I think they would anyway. The fact is they know what we don't, and that is what is in store for him. If they know that what they have planned is fricking awesome then it's pretty easy to ignore people complaining. I have faith in them handling it well.

[lee265]

Actually, 55,000 people all saying, "Die, Loken, die!" would be quite interesting. I actually think it might affect later books considering the fraction of consumers we represent added to the other people crying out. But again, that would take about 55,000 people.

That's assuming that Loken dying is worth compromising what they have planned. If they feel people would be happier with their plans instead of him dying then I doubt they would, not that I think they would anyway. The fact is they know what we don't, and that is what is in store for him. If they know that what they have planned is fricking awesome then it's pretty easy to ignore people complaining. I have faith in them handling it well.

 

I continue to loose faith in there ability to do anything other then make the primarchs look silly and marines nearly invincible that can't seem to use near invincibility to actually help the imperium conquer it enemies.something about this powerr armour out of the situation just doesn't sit right.

 

55,000 people saying no would probably get them not to do it do to the amount of money that represents. That said even me hating it will probably check it out so He will probably live givin it was confirmed he will.

 

And I say he won't be a dreadnaught because the still has to win the tie between him and lucious.and the fight with the remaning mournival members will be less dreadnaught with super armour kicks ass and more underling wins.

[Ashe Darke]

55,000 people not liking it doesn't necessarily mean a drop in sales by 55,000. Battle For the Abyss was a bit crap in my opinion but that didn't stop people from buying it and the other books afterwards. For a series that is now repeatedly getting into the NYTs best sellers list I can't see them caring.

 

Battle For the Abyss is the only book where I've seen anything I'd consider ridiculous to be honest. The primarchs have to be flawed for the heresy to happen and they will feel emotions in extremes far greater than humans so is it surprising that they argue. Their feuds have been in the fluff for ages, it's nothing really new. I'm curious as to what you mean by making the primarchs look silly.

 

The real question is how can you judge what is best for the character when you don't know the full picture?

[lee265]

Full picture or not if there not killing him there is forshadowing about a repeat with the surviving mournival member and lucious wich seems to fit with astarts V. astartes not astartes V. Dreadnaught. Also not knowing the full picture means I go by what I can speculate and feel. I feel that they are pulling power armour for him so why not bring him back as astartes not dreadnaught wich I see as 2 diffrent things since dreadnaughts are essentially machines run on astartes brain like titans.

 

My real thought is if they wanted a tank to do the dirty work of killing them one would have run over the others.

 

I do feel this drops my opinion of Mr. Abnett a little since one of the things I found unique in one of his series was the unfearing killing of characters.

 

And its possible for Loken to be a dreadnaught when he comes back but In my opinion it's not how It'll be done. I could see it happening but there are questions to ask about it happening.

 

1) What would it add?

2)How did he stay alive on the planet without medical attention if he was wounded badly enough to be intured in one?

3)If one was available on the planet they are very complex mechanisums how did that in and of itself not kill him (how many times could he have died and lived like he was superman)?

 

As to the Primarchs looking silly I mean these are supposed to be the greatest leaders just behind the emperor, however A lot of them seem like they have the self control and emotional state that makes a 2 year old look mature. The feuds well they make sense because if you had that much millitary might at your vcommand and take down a tank and walk away do you not see ego's at play. We see similar in history, however the primarchs just feel very Imature in a lot of cases even my favorite Primarchs.

 

Just my opinions of course.

[Ashe Darke]

I have to say I have no desire to see Loken come back as a dreadnought. I don't have my copies of the the first 2 books any more so all this stuff about Loken vs Lucius is new to me (didn't spot it first time around or I can't remember) and I can't go back and look assuming it's in one of those two, I've not been paying attention. I have no care for the idea either, I just like the fact he is still alive although I'd rather Tarvitz be the one we're being told is still alive.

 

Regarding Loken surviving the crush, there's a lot of things to consider. For a start it's a piece of fiction and secondly real life lowly humans have survived buildings collapsing on them and they didn't have enhanced physiques and power armour. Sure it's rare but it's not improbable him surviving. Admittedly most people who have a building collapse on them don't get bombed afterwards but we have no idea how much debris is above him etc. I imagine he's in a relatively safe little pocket in the rubble. Flukey yes, but this is still a work of fiction.

 

As I've said the feuds have around for ages, I'm guessing your problem is with how they have been depicted? I've seen a lot of people complain about Magnus and Lorgar but to me they had to be portrayed that way to fit in with existing fluff. It's been a while since read some of the older books, are you on about scenes like when the primarchs meet before Isstvan III? I'm struggling to picture the specific bits you might be on about. The thing is supposed to be reality aren't always the same thing although I did first wonder why Horus even listened to daemons and gods and why wasn't he strong headed enough not to fall for it. But the fluff says he did so the only things you can conclude are Chaos is faaaar more manipulative than I imagined or they can't be perfect as we thought. The fact that these are warp powered(arguably) beings that were scattered across the galaxy mid-way through their development process and that probably doesn't help keep them stable and cool headed. Most of it is probably chalked down to ego though.

 

I always liked the fact that Dan had the balls to kill people off, take Eisenhorn for example. But in this case he didn't write Galaxy in Flames so can you blame him for someone doing something they shouldn't have with his character? It would be like someone doing the last Eisenhorn books and killing off Nayl, Dan had plans for him elsewhere but someone else put the chop to him. Now that has added a very dramatic hiccup to his plan which would have been rather different had been doing it.

[lee265]

Well as far as loken he already survived a virus bombing that is supposed to kill all life to the point it can it through inanimate objects to acheive its goal. then a seige of far supirior numbers and now we as readers are asked to digest him living through a pounding from another astartes and then a building being dropped on him.

 

Its not specific bits that make me feel that way about primarchs its the Idea that theywere aware of the warp entities and followed bald faced lies and even though they were to be the leaders of men the only thing they seem to be able to do is listen to xenos ( the hated enemy), Warp spawned lies, and destroy there home planets.

Opps forgot get pissed when there told to stop something do it more.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

what i cant wrap my head around is just how serious you are taking the life of a fictional, genetically enhanced superhuman.

 

did i think that Loken died in the series? yes.

do i think bringing him back from where he was left seems off? yes.

 

am i going to obsess and debate over it after 2 of the authors tell me he is alive? no. its their world, we just visit.

 

WLK

[Cyrox]

what i cant wrap my head around is just how serious you are taking the life of a fictional, genetically enhanced superhuman.

 

did i think that Loken died in the series? yes.

do i think bringing him back from where he was left seems off? yes.

 

am i going to obsess and debate over it after 2 of the authors tell me he is alive? no. its their world, we just visit.

 

WLK

 

+1 Great post <_<

[Aegnor]

Yeah +1. Bemused at how the fact he had two duels with Lucius which were split somehow means he couldn't be killed off for good. Not sure whether that's grasping at straws or confusing what you'd like with what is actually happening. Reckon Mr. Abnett would be a bit disappointed if what people have taken away from the discussion about marines not knowing what is a natural life span for them, and the duel between Loken and Lucius is that "Loken's going to go best out of 3 with Lucius" and live a long life. I thought he was making some serious points there about the Astartes worldview myself.

 

Kinda makes me hope that if they do bring him back, he doesn't fight Lucius anyway, just to be perverse.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

what i cant wrap my head around is just how serious you are taking the life of a fictional, genetically enhanced superhuman.

 

did i think that Loken died in the series? yes.

do i think bringing him back from where he was left seems off? yes.

 

am i going to obsess and debate over it after 2 of the authors tell me he is alive? no. its their world, we just visit.

 

WLK

 

I'm not obsessing or debating.. As far as I'm aware I've made three - now four - posts in this thread; one that disproves the notion Saul Tarvitz escaped on the Eisenstein and that others to say that I find Loken still be alive to be a hideously stupid idea.

 

I'm not obsessed, but I am well aware I now sound really defensive <_<

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Yeah +1. Bemused at how the fact he had two duels with Lucius which were split somehow means he couldn't be killed off for good. Not sure whether that's grasping at straws or confusing what you'd like with what is actually happening. Reckon Mr. Abnett would be a bit disappointed if what people have taken away from the discussion about marines not knowing what is a natural life span for them, and the duel between Loken and Lucius is that "Loken's going to go best out of 3 with Lucius" and live a long life. I thought he was making some serious points there about the Astartes worldview myself.

 

Kinda makes me hope that if they do bring him back, he doesn't fight Lucius anyway, just to be perverse.

 

 

Waaaaay back before A D-B said Loken was going to live on, i was arguing that i thought he would. Before Dan hinted Loken was not done, i was searching for signs that might hint there was more Loken story to be told. Every step of the way there have been those who thought i was a crazy fan boy and "Grasping at straws". To keep my hopes up i had to dig real deep into the story. I felt that if Loken was really going to live then the Authors most have planted Easter eggs in their work that only afterwords would most be able to look back on and say. " Wow I missed that i guess." Most still seam to think the points i bring up is crap but most never have any better reasons. Most just say. " That Sucks." We all now know its true but still few seem willing to even look to see if there were any hints.

 

The 2 duels don't mean that Loken can not be killed, just that there is a lot more story that could be told. To me having them in the story means that their duels were a important part of the HH. A series of duels that end in a 1-1 tie with out a tie Breaker is weak. Now add that both live on years afterwords and fight on the opposite side of the biggest War man has record of and they still don't settle it is even Weaker (please don't say.. (Maybe Loken joins the bad guys"). To some maybe the duels were just a foot note in the HH. Not to me. I see the single most influential moment in one of the most infamous villains the Empire has ever known. I don't think that one or both would not try to, given the chance, settle the score. Given who was there to watch the duels i think it was one of the most interesting events so far.

 

You might be right that the authors were " making some serious points there about the Astartes worldview". Dose that mean that it could not also have been used as foreshadowing of the Long life of the one considering the point? He did it on more then one occasion. Dose that not mean that it was a important stream of thought? Am i the only one who sees the importance?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

At the risk of being a bit "out there"

 

We know what happens to Lucius and we know what happens to those who are unlucky enough to kill him.

 

Perhaps Loken goes up against him on Terra, kills Lucius and becomes the first poor bastard to be transformed into Lucius after killing the Slaanesh-protected nutter?

 

Would make for awesome irony.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

At the risk of being a bit "out there"

 

We know what happens to Lucius and we know what happens to those who are unlucky enough to kill him.

 

Perhaps Loken goes up against him on Terra, kills Lucius and becomes the first poor bastard to be transformed into Lucius after killing the Slaanesh-protected nutter?

 

Would make for awesome irony.

 

Except we already know who the first one was. He's named in Lucius' Codex fluff. Unless Loken loses, their meeting would make utterly no sense.

 

Edit - snarkiness removed because I don't need to vent my incessant rage as an off-topic rant.