Japanese themed chapter?

[Plague Angel]

I read 'Samurai' or 'Bushido' or any other historical japanese term and I am immediately ripped straight out of the 40k universe, which is not what you want when reading about an organization that is meant to exist within said universe.

 

I don't see any difference between that and reading the terms "Khan" in reference to the White Scars, or "the All-father" when reading about the Space Wolves. Though I understand the sentiment — in fact, that's the entire reason I can never, ever play Space Wolves, because as soon as I hear "All-father" I'm completely taken out of 40k, so I put the Codex down and go read actual Norse mythology instead. But I digress. Warhammer 40,000 is built upon unsubtle and heavy-handed references, like "Lion El'Jonson and the Dark Angels"; I don't think it detracts from the setting at all to include such references of our own. Saying that a Chapter follows a code called Bushido is no more intrusive than saying a Legion full of sorcerers comes from the planet of Prospero.

[NightrawenII]

First and foremost THIS IS NOT JAPAN.

:huh:

Of course this is not Japan. You don't have a planet named Japan, japanese culture and japanese terms all over place... Oh, wait. :lol:

 

I understand all your amatuer historians out there want to pick out everything that happened and feudal japan and argue until your faces turn blue but this is not japan. I simply said i would like to borrow aspects of it to give my army a theme or flavor. Certain people may want to make sly comments about whay they think is cliche and what is not and how long they waited for this day but there is a reaon cliche is cliche, it works.

The problem with your write-up is not the theme of Japan per se. It is overtheming. We had there in Liber thread about this topic, try to find it. Several members of this forum I respect raised very good points, why is the overtheming bad idea.

 

I am sorry that in your opinion it's stupid of out done but if you don't like it you don't have to read the thread it's just a game and this is just for fun.

You came here at the feets of the fluff-masters to ask for guidance... (Sorry, I couldn't resists) I give you my opinion, what I think is bad.

 

I am not trying to say that this army is 100% historically accurate, it's not supposed to me.

No one is asking you to do. In fact, I and Stazbumpa are quite off topic for some a while. :lol:

 

Nippon-koku (or Nihon-koku) is Japanese for Japan, i am aware of that, where do you think i got it from? And i could care less about your precious post or personal opinons of cliche. (see how that comes off as condesending and not helpful?)

Hmm, and how is this in line with the statement of

First and foremost THIS IS NOT JAPAN.

??? :)

 

I am aware of what ferel means and fully intended for the world to be that way. It not not unfeasable to think that the Adeptus Mechanicus would place a forge world on a planet and refuse admittance to anyone not of their occult in order to horde their secrets, and leave the rest of the world that is not useful to them untouched.

True, but they would need a food and probably other goods too. Where do you think they get it?

 

As far as modeling the chapter after the bushido that was kind of the cheif aspect that i wanted to borrow from the feudal era japan. And again i still don't want to refer to your previous post. It worked for the subarai so why wouldn't it work for my space marine chapter? The practice of the bushido is not that far removed from the same principals that every space marine chapter adhere to.

There is difference between "My chapter follow warrior-code <insert name here>" and "Look, we are samurai in space.".

 

It's like having Knights of Grail Chapter(edit: I forget - based on the planet Avalon) with the Chapter Master Arthur and 1st captain Lancelot, who both have some "problems" with Daemon Princess Guinevra.

Do you see what I see?

 

Ok so you may agree that using a unorthadox number of companies is not a good idea. But it wouldn't be the first time that a chapter had done so. and this is easily corrected.

I slightly disagree with only 12 clans, each corresponding to the 12 ancient astrological signs. The human genealogy is not monolithic structure.

 

As for the STC/forge city. I would think that a entire forge city persumebly but around a STC would not be easily moved, but then again i have never move a city before. And if a world had an over abundance of minerals, enough so that an STC was place there and a forge city built around it, i would think that the adeptus mechcanicus would want to protect it, especailly given the fact that an STC is rare.

STC is relic of Dark Age of Technology, so it was build there before the Mechanicus came. And if the Mechanicus want something protect they send Legions of Titans ans Skitarii.

[Aegnor]

I read 'Samurai' or 'Bushido' or any other historical japanese term and I am immediately ripped straight out of the 40k universe, which is not what you want when reading about an organization that is meant to exist within said universe.

 

I don't see any difference between that and reading the terms "Khan" in reference to the White Scars, or "the All-father" when reading about the Space Wolves. Though I understand the sentiment — in fact, that's the entire reason I can never, ever play Space Wolves, because as soon as I hear "All-father" I'm completely taken out of 40k, so I put the Codex down and go read actual Norse mythology instead. But I digress. Warhammer 40,000 is built upon unsubtle and heavy-handed references, like "Lion El'Jonson and the Dark Angels"; I don't think it detracts from the setting at all to include such references of our own. Saying that a Chapter follows a code called Bushido is no more intrusive than saying a Legion full of sorcerers comes from the planet of Prospero.

 

Kinda disagree with this, due to the much higher profile samurai have in popular culture. Yeah, the Great Khan rips off Genghis Khan and the All-Father references Norse mythology (although I'm betting a lot of players don't get that reference). But we haven't all seen dozens of movies, cartoons, etc about those subjects. I reckon when you reference something very well known, you have to be much gentler with the reference stick. That said, I reckon just avoiding the name itself will soften the reference a lot.

[IronFather84]

Truth be told i am not reluctant to use any of the imformation that is being posted on here. Infatct i agree with much of what is being said and am trying to add revisions to my chapter. I am not disrearding anything that is being said (other then the slights) or reluctant to use it. I actually think this is great and i was not defending my points i was just trying to state my reasoning for attempting to go the route that i was, so that as Nightrawn is trying to do, can possibly give me constructive criticism. I understand that there will be holes in my original rough draft and we are here not only to point out those holes but to hopefully feel those holes. I am wide open for any suggestions people may have. The idea of why my chapter would be this way was just a suggestion and not intended to be the "gossple of 40k" if you will. I knew that wouldn't nessasarily a great idea i was just using that as an opening so that hopefully as a community it would kinda get the creative juices flowing show to speak. So that being said again i plead at the feet of the apparent "masters of 40k fluff" of that idea sucks what would be a better idea to try. I don't want to over theme, no more so the our space mongols, space spartans, space vikings, or our space egytptians. Again i thank you again for reading and your support and hope we can work on this and fleash it out so that we can hopefully all enjoy it.

[IronFather84]

Sorry also if there are other threads concerning this i don't want beat a dead horse so to speak. I wasn't able to find any and if anyone can point me in that direction i would be greatful. sorry about the double posting.

[GooseDaMoose]

I think it's a great idea man, go for it! Can't wait to see some models!

 

I think Nightrawen is nitpicking too much to be honest, the issues he brings up aren't that important, and calling it Nippon-koku is fine. Doesn't mean it IS Japan, it's just a tad obvious. You could call it Jiraiya which is a folklore hero from Japan and means "Young Thunder" or Okami which means wolf. Or something like that; just look up Japanese mythology on Wiki and you can find something there. Like Prospero and the Sorcerors or Fenris and the Space-Vikings.

[NightrawenII]

I think it's a great idea man, go for it! Can't wait to see some models!

 

I think Nightrawen is nitpicking too much to be honest, the issues he brings up aren't that important, and calling it Nippon-koku is fine. Doesn't mean it IS Japan, it's just a tad obvious. You could call it Jiraiya which is a folklore hero from Japan and means "Young Thunder" or Okami which means wolf. Or something like that; just look up Japanese mythology on Wiki and you can find something there. Like Prospero and the Sorcerors or Fenris and the Space-Vikings.

Ok. I admit I'm opinionated in this matter, but having japanese-themed Chapter with the home-planet "Japan" is too much.

In my personal opinion, names of planets work better if there is:

- no meaning at all

- hidden and clever meaning

- inside joke

 

Btw, Jiraiya is perverted not-quite-hermit in Naruto.

 

@IronFather84

Rising Suns

Over Theming

IA: Sons of the Dragon

Please help me design an East Asian-themed Chapter, Concept art created by Muju, the renowned 40k fanartist

Samurai No Tenno, Ideas for my own Chapter.

[Stazbumpa]

The odd thing is that I hated history at school, it bored me to tears ;)

 

That's not my point. Ninja-code sets them apart because the main drive of Ninja was to return with the information at all cost and another activities deemed as dishonourable. This is clashing a lot with the principles of bushido. So even if you are/were samurai, the moment you became ninja you are disqualified from samurai class, because the morals of these two are quite different.

 

The ninja modus operandi was in addition to the samurai ethic. These castle breakers and spies were samurai up to the point where their shinobi skills were needed and that's where the ninja code, such as it was, kicked in. I disagree that becoming ninja ejected you from the samurai class simply because using spies and other deviant means of warfare was not frowned upon in feudal Japan as much as some people think, after all Sun Tzu makes great mention of them in The Art of War and this work was well read in Japan at that time. Further to this, the sengoku daimyo were big on what worked rather than what did not. Guns, for example, were frowned upon initially because it was understood quite quickly that a samurai with years of training and service behind him could be killed on the spot by a peasant armed with a bit of new technology and a weeks training. However this attitude soon changed after the full potential of guns was realised (see the Battle of Nagashino) and the samurai quickly changed their minds. So too for the ninja, a samurai may denounce the underhand techniques but no general with any sense would ignore their skills nor would he treat them as second class retainers for it.

Another point worth bearing in mind is that the bushido code is actually a 17th/18th century invention to give the out of work samurai some direction during the peaceful Edo period. It was born out of the "house laws" of the Sengoku era (1450ish to 16000 or thereabouts) daimyo which were the forerunner of the much later bushido code.

 

 

It's the same like with ronin. They are, for the most part, members of samurai class. But for any "normal" samurai they are outcasts and mongrels.

 

Absolutely, the class system amongst samurai was alive and well throughout their entire history. But even the lowest ashigaru and the scruffiest ronin were still samurai.

 

And c'mon! You are using the traitor, who betrayed his own feudal lord, as the example?

 

Yes I am ;) It illustrates that samurai could be just as disloyal as any other soldiers from any other time period or country. Kobayakawa Hideaki and his betrayal at Sekigahara is another example. His treachery effectively handed the Tokugawa clan the shogunate. However there are many more examples of uncompromising loyalty, we only have to look at Kusunoki Masashiga for an easy example. We have this image of the samurai with his sword and this set of morals, however that image is largely a result of the Edo period and the way samurai were expected to behave rather than the meat and veg of what it meant to be samurai when your life was actually on the line.

That said I think it is entirely appropriate to take them at their loyal best for the purposes of Chapter creation :rolleyes:

 

My point was that these clans, the Taira and Minamoto, established the meaning and purpose of samurai. It's not that I disagree with you, just that the imagery of samurai as we know them today has roots in these warrior-clans.

 

I agree, also the Minamoto were so highly regarded that after they established the shogunate is was an unwritten rule that nobody could occupy that post without being of Minamoto descent. Even so, it is worth pointing out that the Minamoto came to power on the back of clan in-fighting (Minamoto Yoshinaka was rival to the first Minamoto shogun, Yoritomo) and of betrayal: Yoritomo banished his more able and illustrious brother Yosh-it-sune and hounded him until he committed seppuku.

I've had to add the -'s to his name because the swear filter won't let me post without them. You're pretty much on the money with what you're saying, it's just that the western perception of the feudal Japanese military isn't always right, particularly where ninja are concerned.

 

Sorry for any boredom caused, it's just I never get chance to talk to anyone about this stuff so I appreciate the opportunity :ph34r:

[Stazbumpa]

I think it's a great idea man, go for it! Can't wait to see some models!

 

This is my opinion too. That's what this is all supposed to be about :D

 

I think Nightrawen is nitpicking too much to be honest, the issues he brings up aren't that important, and calling it Nippon-koku is fine. Doesn't mean it IS Japan, it's just a tad obvious. You could call it Jiraiya which is a folklore hero from Japan and means "Young Thunder" or Okami which means wolf. Or something like that; just look up Japanese mythology on Wiki and you can find something there. Like Prospero and the Sorcerors or Fenris and the Space-Vikings.

 

Personally, I'd rather have Nightrawen nitpicking and forcing me to think twice than not. He has many valid points and a few not so valid, I just think he isn't a fan of this particular theme (please correct me if I'm wrong Nightrawen). As for the homeworld name I think Nippon-koku will be good enough if you're sold on it, I went with Oyashima (place of many islands) as it's a bit more subtle as a name even though its completely Japanese sounding.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I think it's more that no one is a fan of over-theming.

 

It's been stated that this won't be a "Japan-in Spaaaaaace" Chapter or a "Samurai-in-Spaaaace" Chapter, so when you make overt references to Japan or Samurai it flies in the face of that.

 

Obviously, how the Chapter is constructed is up to the creater.. But taking into account how strong the themse and where you draw them from is very important.

 

I will end with part of a passage from Japanese literature that has always stuck with me, even though I cannot remember where my 12 year old self found it..

 

"The sound of the bell of Gionshoja echoes the impermeance of all things..."

[Blacklight]

The All-Father reference and the Khan references are to things that aren't front and center in modern times. Not many people pay attention to the Mongols (at least in the mainstream) and same for Nordic things. It's because of that that they work semi-well in 40k. The problem you run into with Japan and samurai is that they're a big thing, at least right now. Everyone loves ninja, everyone loves katanas, everyone knows about Japan. So when you start converting the samurai theme to 40k, it's a smack to the side of the head saying "hey, this looks a lot like Japan."

 

My suggestion would be to grab an English-Japanese translator online or something and instead of using samurai and ninja and Japan, type in a regular word and translate it to Japanese. So for example if you wanted to name a sword-wielding unit, type sword and see what comes into the translator. If that's too obvious, try sharp, razor, cut, something like that. That way the actual Japanese word you're using isn't mainstream, but still carries roughly the same meaning.

 

The other issue I see is that of language. The problem with using Japanese is that it's probably been a dead language for tens of thousands of years now. To have a chapter suddenly start using terms and words from a dead language is sort of sketchy. Perhaps instead of naming your chapter using Japanese influences, you can just allude to them? So instead of having them follow bushido, rename it and give it a 40k twist - instead of absolute fealty to the chapter master, make it to the Emperor. You can make it a samurai influenced chapter without bashing people over the head with the "THIS IS JAPAAAAAAAAN!" stick.