trefenwyd Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Well, the topic title and description says it all . . . but I'll repeat here. My bikers turboboost 24". A foot-slogging IC then moves 6" and into coherency with the bikers. On my enemy's shooting turn, do I get a 3+ cover for the unit or not? Potential interpretations: 1. When a footslogging IC joins the unit, the unit loses the turboboost special rule, and the save that goes with it, regardless of whether they already turboboosted or not (RAW, the USR no longer applies) 2. When a footslogging IC joins the unit, the unit loses the turboboost special rule, but because they already turboboosted before the IC joined, the unit DOES get its cover save (RAW the unit is unable to turboboost as long as the IC is joined, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get the cover save from previous turboboosting) Assuming #2 above, some further potential issues: 1. A unit must move more than 18" to receive the cover save. The bikers did, but the IC did not. What counts as "unit move"? (I know this has been talked about in forums before, but still not quite answered to my satisfaction) Some people say that each model must move 18", some say that the "unit centroid" must move 18" and others say that at least one model must move 18". Does the fact that the IC only moved 6" reduce the "unit movement" to 6" and thus negate the cover save? 2. Since cover saves are taken as a "majority rules" rule per pg 22 of the BRB, the IC also benefits from the 3+ cover of the biker squad. Seems a little weird, but pretty straightforward. From a "what makes sense" standpoint, I'd play that the bikes (and thus the IC) do retain the 3+ cover - after all, a 10-man biker squad moving 24" isn't any harder to hit just because it ends its turn next to a character. I can see that being argued both ways with the rules though. Thoughts? Thanks, Trefenwyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I would say it would be a simple case of different saves within the unit. The bikes have met the requirement for the turboboost save as long as they end their move the required distance from the starting point. The bikers would have the 3+ cover save even if joined by the IC, the IC however would not get the cover save. Thats my view on it anyway, no doubt others may disagree or be able to cite RAW that will support their argument. Unfortunately I'm at work and so unable to quote rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I would say it would be a simple case of different saves within the unit.The bikes have met the requirement for the turboboost save as long as they end their move the required distance from the starting point. The bikers would have the 3+ cover save even if joined by the IC, the IC however would not get the cover save. Thats my view on it anyway, no doubt others may disagree or be able to cite RAW that will support their argument. Unfortunately I'm at work and so unable to quote rules. This is about how I interpret it, as well. Saves are rolled after allocation, soit's perfectly acceptabel for the IC to have a 4+ cover save, while the bikes have a 3+ cover save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 That's probably hwo I'd do it too. The bikes don't lose their 3+, but the character doesn't gain it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 In the details...is their a restriction on when a IC can move into coherency with a new unit? For example, we know it can ONLY be done in the movement phase. I do not have my BRB at work (LOL)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trefenwyd Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Yes, the IC would have to join the bikes after they moved, but in his movement phase. Regarding separate cover, pg 26 of the BRB specifically states that you take majority cover, and in case of a tie, best cover. There are only a few exceptions to this rule (monstrous creatures with a retinue: MC doesn't get a cover, retinue does). I agree that it makes sense not to give the IC the 3+ cover, but it seems pretty black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Yes, the IC would have to join the bikes after they moved, but in his movement phase. Regarding separate cover, pg 26 of the BRB specifically states that you take majority cover, and in case of a tie, best cover. There are only a few exceptions to this rule (monstrous creatures with a retinue: MC doesn't get a cover, retinue does). I agree that it makes sense not to give the IC the 3+ cover, but it seems pretty black and white. What page? 26 is talking about multi-wound models and units, not multi-save models/units. And mentions nothing about majority..anything. The only page with anything reasonably close to this is 22, which deals with units actually being in/out of actual cover, needing the majority that are in or out to be determined not their individual save values. Units with differing saves (no actual cover required) do not go by the majority. 'Majority saves' was a 4E thing, if at all. Saves are now handled on a model by model (or group by group, in teh case of complex units) basis. The squad will have thier own 3+ while the IC retains his 4+. And just where is this 'exception' dealing with MC's and retinues? If it's mixed in with more models, it's part of the unit, and thus goes by the unit rules for determining cover saves (I.E. if half or more of the unit is actually in cover, then it too is considered to be as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trefenwyd Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 You're right, I was referring to pg 22. Don't have the BRB with me at work - will post when I get home, but I agree that armor saves are based on individuals - cover saves are for the unit as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Saves from actual cover are, yes. But there's no 'cover' providing these saves we're debating, but special skills or devices that work like them and so are called 'cover' saves. One requires terrain to actually be there, the other does not. p22 deals with the physical stuff. Will wait for the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan VK Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+ to represent the difficulty of hitting such fast-moving targets. BRB page 76 When any part of the target model’s body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover. BRB page 21 If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves. BRB page 22 An IC may join a unit that moved using the Turbo-Boosters USR, but only the models in the unit that moved using the Turbo-Boosters USR gain the cover save. The IC does not gain a ‘majority’ cover save as the unit is not ‘in cover’. The IC does not deny the unit the save granted by the Turbo-Boosters USR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trefenwyd Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Hmmm . . . I've always thought that the pg 22 entry "if half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover" equated to "if half or more of the models in the target unit get a cover save". I'm still not convinced I'm wrong, but it seems that the majority (or those who are replying anyway) interpret the "in cover" to literally be terrain, illustrated nicely by Dan VK's post above. Are we all in agreement that if that IC had the stealth USR, the bikes would then get a 2+ cover per the latest FAQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 There is a difference between being in cover and getting a cover save. Being in cover may grant a cover save, but there are other ways of getting cover saves as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Are we all in agreement that if that IC had the stealth USR, the bikes would then get a 2+ cover per the latest FAQ?Haha, I would have to agree with that...good thing that would only happen in team games as no SM IC has Stealth...I think... I also agree that the cover save generated by the bikes does not mean they are "in cover." As said, there are various ways to generate a cover save without being in cover, such as speed saves for bikes and vehicles, smoke launchers, going to ground, psychic powers, etc. Thus, with the unit of bikes not being in cover, they don't benefit from the "majority" line on page 22. Now, if they were also in cover after their move, the character would then benefit from a cover save, but it wouldn't be the bike's 3+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 no SM IC has Stealth...I think... Some SW ICs can get Stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I thought there was something in the rules preventing ICs from joining a unit that had turbo boosted? Of course saying that now It sounds dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trefenwyd Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 @ Seahawk, Yeah, the whole reason for the thread was that I was thinking of running SW IC with Stealth in a razor (at forward deployment edge), who pops out and joins the turbo-boosted bikers turn 1 (who are formed in a 'T' shape with the forward element 24" away and the rear element only 6" or so past my forward deployment after boosting), then leaves and rejoins the razor turn 2. It'll give the bikes a 2+ cover for the turn, after which they'll be in cc and not needing cover anymore. I think everyone agrees that's legal, but the IC gets no cover save, based on our debate/interpretation of the rules. Unless anyone has any more input, thank you all for the back and forth, and maybe I'll post in tactica if I ever end up using this tactic. Trefenwyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ahh...:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hmm, an interesting tactic. I must say, though that you'd better have a lot more ready to back them up in assault on turn 3. They may not even last that long! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trefenwyd Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Oh, 2 wolf lords, a wolf priest, 10 bikes, an attack bike, and a wolf guard? Baked up by triple-vindy, I think they'll last all game...if I can manage to somehow maneuvre a 15-man bike unit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Space Wolves don't cap out at 8 bikes per squad (before attachemtns of ICs and attack bikes), like Codex Marines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Ahh, I see. Your entire army IS a bike squad. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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