Lady_Mournival Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 So I was reading through Prospero Burns and well it made me ponder many a thing. Near the end of the book Hawser is talking to Leman Russ and he mentions that it's their (the Space Wolves')first sanction of another legion, and then Russ says that it's not, and throughout the book it's hinted at that's the only reason they exist; to take down other legions. is it me or does this imply that the Wolves were also employed against the "lost" legions? "Space marines are inherently tough, but the Space Wolves are particularly dangerous; they are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal and it begs the question why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? and that would be to take down another legion." ~ DAn Abnett, A Thousand Sons & Prospero Burns book trailer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 *shrugs* Ultimately, there isn't enough there to say for sure. I can't say I'm a fan of the idea, I think it's a little daft and I got the alternate impression from A Thousand Sons that it was "just" the Emperor and the Primarchs who had "sanctioned" the two lost Legions. When Magnus talks to Mortarion about the last time all the Primarchs gathered, it seemed to hint towards the Lost Legions, or so I thought. I don't really buy into the idea that the Wolves were that much better than all the other Legions or that much more dangerous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2613655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
isilvra Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Simple. Wolves did one. The Primarchs and emperor did the other. The lightning tower audio book does say the incidents were separate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2613744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas9521 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I havent read the book yet(i like the subject but not so much the author) but did watch the trailer.I immediately thought um,why does he say that when i can think of the world eaters and night lords as being even more ruthless,savage and brutal.If this is the case maybe the emperor saw himself having to take down a lot of legions.Shame two of them decided to take down the big cheese himself:( Have to agree with pious,never been able to see one legion being better than any other one.Just different character to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2613777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatox Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Isn't it also hinted that the lost legions were disbanded and absorbed into the Ultramarines?... Meaning the wolves wouldn't have had anything to chew on Malatox Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2614197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
styygens Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Isn't it also hinted that the lost legions were disbanded and absorbed into the Ultramarines?... Meaning the wolves wouldn't have had anything to chew onMalatox Yes. I just caught that hint in The First Heretic. Although the characters mention this is just a rumor even among the Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2614204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 So I was reading through Prospero Burns and well it made me ponder many a thing. Near the end of the book Hawser is talking to Leman Russ and he mentions that it's their (the Space Wolves')first sanction of another legion, and then Russ says that it's not, and throughout the book it's hinted at that's the only reason they exist; to take down other legions. is it me or does this imply that the Wolves were also employed against the "lost" legions? "Space marines are inherently tough, but the Space Wolves are particularly dangerous; they are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal and it begs the question why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? and that would be to take down another legion." ~ DAn Abnett, A Thousand Sons & Prospero Burns book trailer. Actually, Mr A-D-B himself addressed this issue on this very board. "But where Prospero Burns is concerned, it's what the Wolves think about themselves, and not exactly an objective truth. I do agree it's presented in terms that are fairly hard to argue with, but with a knowledge of the setting - like Lord Caerolion mentioned - the Wolves really aren't any more ferocious or capable of anything more than several other Legions. I think it'll look better with hindsight, when we have novels of several Legions all considering themselves the most punishingly badass." The Wolves may CONSIDER themselves all uber badassy, but its largely in their own heads. They are no more or less savage than, say, the World Eaters or the Night Lords. They do not exist only to take down other Legions. They exist in the manner they do because the Big E actually gave alot of leeway in how Legions operate, just to long as they don't break specific tenants he sets down, such as sorcery usage and overt religiosity. And for whatever reason the lost Legions had to go. The First Heretic seems to mention that it was not just the Wolves involved in taking down the lost legions, but several working in tandem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2614346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Aye this reminds me Curze and how he said he was the Emperor's weapon, his guy-who-goes-too-far for when he needs someone like that, and that the Emperor sanctioned this behaviour. Yet none of the other primarchs know about this and he even gets called in for questioning by the Emperor for doing those things. Granted Curze was a bit crazy and so Russ's word is probably more reliable but still this has a very similar feeling to it and you can't quite wonder if maybe Russ has taken something the Emperor has said and interpreted it how he wanted i.e. I'm the Emperor's personal executioner, when he needs something to take out other legions he needs me, 'cause I'm hard, YEAH :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2614649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I don't think it would be fair to say that a particular Legion is better than the rest. I mean sure the Space Wolves were pretty badass but as mentioned earlier the World Eaters and Night Lords really seem even more dangerous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2614755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Night Lords use terror to cause the enemy to run away so the enemy needs to feel fear. Considering Astartes apparently know no fear their edge is kinda lost. I think the best example of NLs at work is in LotN where Sahaal is cutting down fleeing humans. That is how they get their vicious reputation, by chasing those that they scared away. Pretty much in game terms, forcing enemies to fail morale and then sweeping advancing them. I can't really see marines falling back from the Night Lords. Now the World Eaters are a vicious bunch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2615022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Night Lords use terror to cause the enemy to run away so the enemy needs to feel fear. Considering Astartes apparently know no fear their edge is kinda lost. I think the best example of NLs at work is in LotN where Sahaal is cutting down fleeing humans. That is how they get their vicious reputation, by chasing those that they scared away. Pretty much in game terms, forcing enemies to fail morale and then sweeping advancing them. I can't really see marines falling back from the Night Lords. Now the World Eaters are a vicious bunch. Yes, but STUPID. Or rather, self destructive would be a better term. At least, once Angron took over. Yeah I always wondered about that with Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Raven Guard against other Astartes. Seems like they would be most effective against Non-Astartes enemies, ones with infrastructure to infiltrate and morale that is more affected by fear. mind you, they wouldn't be totally useless, as hit and run is still largely effective and all are good at that...just...less effective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2615463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 You're assuming that the Night Lords, with their tactics of overkill, would even get into a straight fight with other Astartes. My guess? Hit hard with nukes, causing many casualties and creating nuclear winter. Once vision is greatly reduced without auto-senses, drop EMP bursts and EM flares, to knock out electrical lighting, cut communications, and ruining any auspex/autosenses the enemy Legion may have. Drop Night Lords, and let their innate night vision give a vast edge in awareness, allowing the Night Lords to outmaneuvre their near-blinded enemies. Primarily target what communication and power stations may still be active. Attack, kill the revered heroes, and retreat, leaving the battle brothers to wonder how they can truly fight back when Ancient X didn't even manage to put up a fight. Capture and defile Legion relics/geneseed. Do everything possible to goad the enemy into despair, if not actual fear. They may not know fear, but lets see how they handle being surrounded by an enemy that they can't see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2615528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Night Lords use terror to cause the enemy to run away so the enemy needs to feel fear. Considering Astartes apparently know no fear their edge is kinda lost. I think the best example of NLs at work is in LotN where Sahaal is cutting down fleeing humans. That is how they get their vicious reputation, by chasing those that they scared away. Pretty much in game terms, forcing enemies to fail morale and then sweeping advancing them. I can't really see marines falling back from the Night Lords. Now the World Eaters are a vicious bunch. Yes, but STUPID. I wasn't saying they were a more suitable candidate, just more so than the NL regarding marine-on-marine action. You're assuming that the Night Lords, with their tactics of overkill, would even get into a straight fight with other Astartes. My guess? Hit hard with nukes, causing many casualties and creating nuclear winter. Once vision is greatly reduced without auto-senses, drop EMP bursts and EM flares, to knock out electrical lighting, cut communications, and ruining any auspex/autosenses the enemy Legion may have. Drop Night Lords, and let their innate night vision give a vast edge in awareness, allowing the Night Lords to outmaneuvre their near-blinded enemies. Primarily target what communication and power stations may still be active. Attack, kill the revered heroes, and retreat, leaving the battle brothers to wonder how they can truly fight back when Ancient X didn't even manage to put up a fight. Capture and defile Legion relics/geneseed. Do everything possible to goad the enemy into despair, if not actual fear.They may not know fear, but lets see how they handle being surrounded by an enemy that they can't see. ^ Mmmm delicious! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2615815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 It could be mindsett as well it might be that out of all the Legion the SPace Wolves may be the only Legion who would wipe out another without a seconds throught or even questioning why. Now the Night Lords and World Eaters are savage but Konrad may not have been willing to have wiped out the Emperors Children and likewise Angron may have respected Horus so much they he could not do it either. Whereas Russ could still respect others but when given an order he would carry it out without seconds thought, no matter what the order was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2615829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Just want to point out that the book implies that the Wolves were quite a large Legion as well - their status as executioners could simply be that they had the numbers to crush a smaller Legion, especially when combined with their utter ruthlessness. Russ' whole comment on each Primarch and Legion being designed for a different role definitely makes sense, and in that regard Angron and the World Eaters would probably be considered more as the shock troops fighting the enemy head on, rather than as the guy who chops off traitorous heads. I really didn't get a 'Wolves are better than everyone else vibe' from this book, just that they had a peculiar mindset that lends itself to certain dirty jobs. Honestly, it's a much nicer bit of fluff than obese, drunken, faux-Vikings running around saving damsels and beating aliens to death with chicken drumsticks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2615910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Exactly. There is a difference between 'better than everyone else' and 'more suitable for the job'. It just happens to make them look very cool in the process. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
styygens Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The First Heretic seems to mention that it was not just the Wolves involved in taking down the lost legions, but several working in tandem. I haven't finished reading First Heretic yet, but at the reference I found, it sounded much more like the two primarchs were somehow "disciplined" and subsequently lost, but their legions were not lost but absorbed. Which sounds like the legion Astarte were relatively blameless. I actually thought this was an elegant ret-con explaining what happened to the legions. But it has some interesting implications on the gene-seed of the legion reputed to have absorbed the other legions. I do know there's a cryptic comment in Prospero Burns about how the Wolves and Sons aren't the first time Astartes have come to blows... But that could also refer to the sibling spats between Wolves and Dark Angels. I don't think it necessarily meant something as apocalyptic as the scourging of Prospero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Just want to point out that the book implies that the Wolves were quite a large Legion as well - their status as executioners could simply be that they had the numbers to crush a smaller Legion, especially when combined with their utter ruthlessness. Every other source says they were one of the smallest. Russ' whole comment on each Primarch and Legion being designed for a different role definitely makes sense, and in that regard Angron and the World Eaters would probably be considered more as the shock troops fighting the enemy head on, rather than as the guy who chops off traitorous heads. That's not particularly annoys me, at least. It's the fact that apparently the Wolves are too nasty to be allowed to exist, and it's only their role as executioners that makes the Emperor hold back on having them destroyed. The problem is that the World Eaters and Night Lords have done much, much worse things, yet the Emperor seems to have been fine with them (yes, the Night Lords were going to be sanctioned, but only over Haunter attacking Dorn, not their tactics). How does the Emperor justify their existance? "Well, I can't destroy the Wolves, because they're my executioners, and I can't destroy the World Eaters, because they're my out-of-control genocidal maniacs." I do know there's a cryptic comment in Prospero Burns about how the Wolves and Sons aren't the first time Astartes have come to blows... But that could also refer to the sibling spats between Wolves and Dark Angels. The 'sibling spats' which hadn't taken place yet. Sure, they don't state it outright, but it's saying the Missing Legions were destroyed by other Astartes, or at least fought them, and that the Wolves were likely involved. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Mournival Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Just want to point out that the book implies that the Wolves were quite a large Legion as well - their status as executioners could simply be that they had the numbers to crush a smaller Legion, especially when combined with their utter ruthlessness. Every other source says they were one of the smallest. If you don't mind, I would like to know these sources. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm at work, but I believe it's the Space Wolves Index Astartes that states it, plus the fact that they weren't that affected by the Heresy, and only made 1 Successor Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I haven't finished reading First Heretic yet, but at the reference I found, it sounded much more like the two primarchs were somehow "disciplined" and subsequently lost, but their legions were not lost but absorbed. Which sounds like the legion Astarte were relatively blameless. I actually thought this was an elegant ret-con explaining what happened to the legions. That's not what happened. That's just a few Word Bearers who have a grudge against the Ultramarines for quite a while making up wild conspiracy theories. It is definitely not a retcon. Just the author having some fun teasing the readers. The problem is that the World Eaters and Night Lords have done much, much worse things, yet the Emperor seems to have been fine with them (yes, the Night Lords were going to be sanctioned, but only over Haunter attacking Dorn, not their tactics). Angron was chastised for the use of psycho surgical implants, but he continued to use them for his Legion anyway. Night Haunter was not summoned to Terra because of attacking Dorn, but because of destroying his own home world and then proceeding to cut a bloody swathe through the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
styygens Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I do know there's a cryptic comment in Prospero Burns about how the Wolves and Sons aren't the first time Astartes have come to blows... But that could also refer to the sibling spats between Wolves and Dark Angels. The 'sibling spats' which hadn't taken place yet. Sure, they don't state it outright, but it's saying the Missing Legions were destroyed by other Astartes, or at least fought them, and that the Wolves were likely involved. Are you sure of the timeline on this? I was pretty sure the SW and DA had serious friction during the Great Crusade, which by the time of the Battle of Prospero was winding down. Just because we haven't seen it happen in an HH book doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the timeline. But then, the whole point of the HH books is to overturn what we thought we knew of the fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
styygens Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I haven't finished reading First Heretic yet, but at the reference I found, it sounded much more like the two primarchs were somehow "disciplined" and subsequently lost, but their legions were not lost but absorbed. Which sounds like the legion Astarte were relatively blameless. I actually thought this was an elegant ret-con explaining what happened to the legions. That's not what happened. That's just a few Word Bearers who have a grudge against the Ultramarines for quite a while making up wild conspiracy theories. It is definitely not a retcon. Just the author having some fun teasing the readers. Well, I don't know. And I know you don't know. All we do know is, the author inserted a new conspiracy theory for us to argue about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Well, I don't know. And I know you don't know. Since earlier background (Codex Ultramarines for example) explained specifically why the Ultramarines grew to become the largest of the Legions I would say a conspiracy theory uttered by a Word Bearer does not have enough weight to be considered a retcon. So I in fact do know the "official" background. (If such a concept still exists.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I really didn't get a 'Wolves are better than everyone else vibe' from this book, just that they had a peculiar mindset that lends itself to certain dirty jobs. Honestly, it's a much nicer bit of fluff than obese, drunken, faux-Vikings running around saving damsels and beating aliens to death with chicken drumsticks. Oh, it was there, Hawser at one point claims that no Astartes individually is better than the Rout one-on-one and that they can make other Astartes feel fear. It definitely was't true, but it was there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/#findComment-2616872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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