The Space Wolves and Other Legions

[ODM]

I do know there's a cryptic comment in Prospero Burns about how the Wolves and Sons aren't the first time Astartes have come to blows... But that could also refer to the sibling spats between Wolves and Dark Angels.

The 'sibling spats' which hadn't taken place yet. Sure, they don't state it outright, but it's saying the Missing Legions were destroyed by other Astartes, or at least fought them, and that the Wolves were likely involved.

 

Are you sure of the timeline on this? I was pretty sure the SW and DA had serious friction during the Great Crusade, which by the time of the Battle of Prospero was winding down.

 

Just because we haven't seen it happen in an HH book doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the timeline. But then, the whole point of the HH books is to overturn what we thought we knew of the fluff.

The comment is pretty clear. Russ says it's not the first time the Wolves have been used to sanction another Legion. That's not his spat with the Lion, that's one of the missing Legions.

[Candleshoes]

The comment is pretty clear. Russ says it's not the first time the Wolves have been used to sanction another Legion. That's not his spat with the Lion, that's one of the missing Legions.

 

These are my thoughts as well and after finishing Prospero burns, I am of the opinion the Vlka Fynryka annihilated one of the lost Legions.

[styygens]

OK, so, when in doubt, I try to go back to the book. And, yep. The exact quote is:

 

"The unprecedented. Like... Astartes fighting Astartes? Like the Rout being called to sanction another Legion?"

 

"That?" He answers. He laughs, but it is a sad sound. "Hjolda, no. That's not unprecedented."

 

I'd be inclined to agree with you based on Occam's Razor. The easiest explanation for this is that the SW sanctioned some Legion.

 

But... There's a lot of wiggle room here. The quote doesn't mention the Lost Legions at all. It doesn't say how the "other Legion" was sanctioned (although it's pretty clear that sack-and-burn is the SW modus operandi). It isn't even clear that it was the SW's who did the sanctioning!

 

And since I've already dragged in The First Heretic, let's keep in mind the Ultramarines certainly taught a lesson to the Word Bearers in the opening pages of that novel. While the WB weren't eliminated, it's clear they are being disciplined by the Emperor.

 

I don't really expect GW to ever clearly explain what happened to the two Lost Primarchs/Legions. They'll certainly drop hints all over the place, but they don't want a resolution because it's more fun to speculate. I happen to like the idea that the Primarchs were sanctioned and the Legions were somehow disbursed. It's easier for me to imagine disposing of two people (even demigod-like beings) than hundreds of thousands of superhuman warriors. It would be much easier to purge history if the Legions go willingly. Just my $.02, and nobody else needs to like it.

 

BTW, I also sourced my confusion about the sparring between the SW and Dark Angels... The two Codices don't agree precisely on the timeline. The SW Codex sets the brawl during the Horus Heresy, while the DA Codex describes the exact same events, but sets it during the Great Crusade.

 

I dunno. I'll argue fluff to a point, but GW changes it all the time. I'm probably in over my head already. Who cares, I like to paint little men and read the books. I think we can all agree on that!

[Balthamal]

Personally I'm inclined to agree that the Wolves did indeed break one if not both of the lost legions. In addition to the quote posted above by Styygens, there's actually another quote from Russ that goes something along the lines of "I always seems to get the dirty jobs." While it could mean that the 6th Legion were used for particularly violent and aggressive missions it should be remembered that every single Astartes Legion was deployed to utterly annihilate any resistance encountered. The Legions were given nothing but the dirty jobs so any reference to that should be taken against what is standard for the legions anyway.

 

Just for the sake of argument, what could a dirty job be when compared with unleashing shock legions such as the World Eaters or Blood Angels or even the Night Lords who were effectively sanctioned terrorists. Something on the order of wiping out your own would certainly be a dirty job when compared to that IMO

[A D-B]

I haven't finished reading First Heretic yet, but at the reference I found, it sounded much more like the two primarchs were somehow "disciplined" and subsequently lost, but their legions were not lost but absorbed. Which sounds like the legion Astarte were relatively blameless.

 

I actually thought this was an elegant ret-con explaining what happened to the legions.

That's not what happened. That's just a few Word Bearers who have a grudge against the Ultramarines for quite a while making up wild conspiracy theories. It is definitely not a retcon. Just the author having some fun teasing the readers.

 

If I'd known people would really believe it was a hint, rather than several soldiers joking, I'd never have written it. I genuinely had no idea people would take it as fact. Most of the other HH references to the Lost Legions (especially in Prospero Burns) are spoken with an air of truth. In The First Heretic, in that scene, it's blatantly just some soldiers even admitting they know it's just a rumour.

 

EDIT:

 

Let's compare.

 

You have a Space Wolf categorically saying that his Legion has punished other Legions before, in that such an event "is not unprecedented" in Prospero Burns. I can completely see why readers will attribute that to the Lost Legions.

 

But the Word Bearers in The First Heretic are plainly saying it's just a rumour that would explain the Ultramarines' insane size, and they suspect it might be true. They have no evidence. It's a possibility, but I was careful not to make it a statement.

[Legatus]

If I'd known people would really believe it was a hint, rather than several soldiers joking, I'd never have written it. I genuinely had no idea people would take it as fact.

I believe Gav Thorpe had said something similar about the controversial bit in "Angels of Darkness". It was a spontaneous idea he had and thought would be cool for the character to say, but it was never actually intended to retcon Jonson into an almost-traitor. But pretty much everyone took it at face value. But then the same happened with "Legion" and "Lord of the Night". And apparently the Space Wolves are the Emperor's executioners now. Specifically made to destroy other Space Marine Legions.

[styygens]

I haven't finished reading First Heretic yet, but at the reference I found, it sounded much more like the two primarchs were somehow "disciplined" and subsequently lost, but their legions were not lost but absorbed. Which sounds like the legion Astarte were relatively blameless.

 

I actually thought this was an elegant ret-con explaining what happened to the legions.

That's not what happened. That's just a few Word Bearers who have a grudge against the Ultramarines for quite a while making up wild conspiracy theories. It is definitely not a retcon. Just the author having some fun teasing the readers.

 

If I'd known people would really believe it was a hint, rather than several soldiers joking, I'd never have written it. I genuinely had no idea people would take it as fact. Most of the other HH references to the Lost Legions (especially in Prospero Burns) are spoken with an air of truth. In The First Heretic, in that scene, it's blatantly just some soldiers even admitting they know it's just a rumour.

 

EDIT:

 

Let's compare.

 

You have a Space Wolf categorically saying that his Legion has punished other Legions before, in that such an event "is not unprecedented" in Prospero Burns. I can completely see why readers will attribute that to the Lost Legions.

 

But the Word Bearers in The First Heretic are plainly saying it's just a rumour that would explain the Ultramarines' insane size, and they suspect it might be true. They have no evidence. It's a possibility, but I was careful not to make it a statement.

 

A D-B;

 

Thank you for The First Heretic. I've enjoyed several of your other books as well; particularly your take on the Night Lords.

 

If this was your intent, then that's good to know and I'm very willing to take it as the final word.

 

On the other hand, I'm sure you've already encountered situations as an author in which things you write take on some life of their own. So I guess my question is...

 

Is GW tightly controlling the fluff? What happens if some other BL author takes up the suggestion you've dropped as I did? As I mentioned earlier, I think this neatly explains how two legions can be neatly expunged without the same hullabaloo the Horus Heresy caused: the two primarchs are sanctioned, but at least one legion -- shamed, but perhaps blameless themselves -- is absorbed into the Ultras. Now there's a mystery: what could a Primarch do that would alienate the Emperor and his own Legion? Perhaps this would also explain why Gulliman was eager to split his legion, to segregate the gene-seed of the outsiders into their own chapters.

 

I don't ever get too tightly wound-up about fluff. It changes too easily, and that's actually part of the fun for me. I don't usually even get into fluff arguments, but this suggestion about the Lost Legions really caught my interest. I'm a little sorry I caused this trouble, but thank you for taking the time to clear it up.

[eaglefists13]

Just want to point out that the book implies that the Wolves were quite a large Legion as well - their status as executioners could simply be that they had the numbers to crush a smaller Legion, especially when combined with their utter ruthlessness.

 

Russ' whole comment on each Primarch and Legion being designed for a different role definitely makes sense, and in that regard Angron and the World Eaters would probably be considered more as the shock troops fighting the enemy head on, rather than as the guy who chops off traitorous heads.

 

I really didn't get a 'Wolves are better than everyone else vibe' from this book, just that they had a peculiar mindset that lends itself to certain dirty jobs. Honestly, it's a much nicer bit of fluff than obese, drunken, faux-Vikings running around saving damsels and beating aliens to death with chicken drumsticks.

This quote would imply that they would be effective against only a tiny number of the Legions so makes no sense, couple this with the fact that the thousand sons are very small legion, they need the sisters and custodes though the former a lot more so the whole idea makes little logical sense.

[eaglefists13]

What if it was the Ultras or Luna Wolves that went rogue, being a fan of Space Wolves I see no way that they could overcome these 2 legions. All we know is that Russ was the only brother Primarch who beat Horus in a duel something which the Lion got close too.

 

This could imply that they were real badasses, but then Russ couldnt beat the Lion in a fight, Russ being the stronger and the Lion being the faster and ended up in a daylong snooze.

I couldn't even see the Wolves taking on the Fists/Warriors who defensive capabilities would of been immense and i would see them struggle immensely against the Blood Angels.

 

I think they were used to sanction with or without the help of other legions( maybe that why the Ultras got the influx?? as the wouldnt fit into the wolves structure??) and ended up typecasted, maybe Russ personally took down the "rogue" Primarch whilst Gulliman handled the Legion itself. Don't see why the Emperor didnt do it but maybe that why when he dropped in on Lorgar the warning was implicit and done with the Ultras in tow. Aluding too but not saying "watch it".

 

Some logic in there but leaps and bounds but then maybe that the point and why its so popluar.

[voi shet magir]

being a fan of Space Wolves I see no way that they could overcome these 2 legions.

 

If, in a world without law or decency, your neighbor refuses to stop blasting jungle music at 4am every Sunday and Tuesday, endangering your frail newborn’s hearing, you have multiple extreme options for favorably amending the situation. You might cut his power, steal his speakers, hold his dog hostage, or preemptively set fire to his car at 3:45am. In any case, you would have effectively and seriously won. Space Wolves would straight up kill him, regardless of the risk to themselves or the extreme overkill.

 

You are treating the role of executioner as a straight up fight. It is true that most legions should be able to fight another legion more or less to a standstill; the difference is what winning means to each legion, which most of the time cannot be described as execution. Only a minority of conflicts, fictional or real, have been or resulted in the complete annihilation of an antagonist’s military, much less the population it represents. Conventional militaries like the Guard have military objectives like seizing and defending territory, populations and resources, or destroying industrial and military capacity that threaten their influence on those things. Combat with opposing forces is an incidental cost of accomplishing that control, and if their objectives are secure the Guard is not excessively burdened with their enemies’ existences. Marines are oriented directly toward defeating enemy forces, be that in the field, on a specific and coincidental objective, or the enemies’ otherwise valueless refuges. In the same way, the Legions all have different ideas about what it means to have won a conflict.

 

Ultras have this idea that if they can control strategic deployment options and relevant infrastructure, that the enemy will not be able to sustain its forces in the long term or complete successful operations in the short term. If there are three covert Legions which operate in similar ways, they still have distinct goals. The Night Lords attempt to cause dysfunctional behavior in the enemy, like responding to illusory threats and failure to detect actual ones. They remove their enemies’ trust in its external senses, and in this way can still effectively terrorize an enemy whose troops are completely unfeeling. The Alpha Legion also attempt deception, but the senses they attack are internal ones; the enemy in this case is equally unable to coordinate its forces, but this time because its knowledge of their activities is inferior to the Legion’s. The Raven Guard are less similar, because they attempt to engage only crucial targets, so while the traitor Legions attempt counterintelligence to misinform the enemy, the Raven Guard are occupied only with gathering direct intelligence to inform themselves.

 

World Eaters and Space Wolves exercise extreme brutality, but to separate ends. Even when loyal, World Eaters’ preoccupation was the primal rule by which Khorne empowers himself. They undo their enemies by putting posing mortal danger. That seems obvious and universal to armed conflict, but that simplicity is the point of the cardinal primordial vices to which four of the legions would succumb. When the enemy is so immediately threatened by chain-axes, its sole agendum is survival, and pressed at so close to that edge of survival it can contemplate neither its original military objective, nor simple maneuvers to maintain its integrity as a fighting body. World Eaters would not appropriate the Olamic Quietude’s weaponry the way the wolves did, because the chain-axe is enough, once carnage prevails their enemy has been defeated, alive or dead.

[Captain Idaho]

If I'd known people would really believe it was a hint, rather than several soldiers joking, I'd never have written it. I genuinely had no idea people would take it as fact. Most of the other HH references to the Lost Legions (especially in Prospero Burns) are spoken with an air of truth. In The First Heretic, in that scene, it's blatantly just some soldiers even admitting they know it's just a rumour.

 

No way, just keep doing what you do best and damn the fanboys and their speculation! Whilst I understand it's not always nice to be mis-interpreted (oh the indignant rage of those poor mis-understood souls!) I think as an author you shouldn't have to worry about people "not getting it" when making a cool story. It's not your responsibility some people might not be able to read in any more depth than literal black and white text.

 

:tu:

 

As an aspiring writer myself (if you forgive that oft used cliche), I can vouch for my comment above; it does indeed hurt when someone doesn't get what you are trying to get across. You get that sinking feeling and paranoia that you have failed. Of course if your writing is obscure to the point of being incomprehensible, then you need to rain it in a little, but I'm pretty sure I speak for many people when I say that you (A D-B) are skilled enough to not have a worry in that department.

 

***Edit***

 

Sorry for the patronising post, just read that back and it reads pretty damn arrogant! I'm at work at the moment so trying to sneak in a post to get my meaning across (oh the irony) is difficult!

 

Just trying to say; keep up the good work and I understand the consternation you have reading the black and white assumptions from people.

 

;)

[eaglefists13]

The above post is patronising and arrogant, but your opinion is that...your opinion.

As you so kindly mentioned the diametric black and white you have to understand that like your opinion that you hold dear, and you should, that there exists the opposite and it should be belittled or derided as shouldn't the posters.

 

My belief or lack of is my castle, and as the Marines in question are questionable this automatically means their statements are false??

Now we know ADB has contibuted greatly to this post with his inside knowledge of being THE author, and that his intentions may of been mistaken, but two facts are there to have.

 

1. The Ultra's are massive in size much more so than word Bearers, who try and put it on something other than recruits(they must know of the many planets in the Ultramar system so recruiting from a greater source and probably faster and easier than most as the Ultra's society is based upon an aspirant type system from birth)

2. The Ultra's did all of sudden get bigger, this was not ruled out by ADB only that the rumour for the size increase.

 

And to add to the mix ADB did say at the bottom of his post "its a possibility"...............

So "fanboys" how is it that mid crusade the Ultras all of sudden get bigger, noticably?

 

 

The process to become a marine by the Dark Angels is getter refined down by Luther to 24 months, so even with the methods which would of been inferior by any other legion this would of meant steady influx at intervals around 3-5 years.

 

By putting in "its a possibility" it keeps the debate open.

[Captain Idaho]

What's your problem?

 

I clearly apologised because I couldn't get my meaning out as clearly as I intended at the time of making that post, and rather than be false and remove it when others may have read it already, I added an amendment to it.

 

The arrogance I referred to was the assumption my own feelings (and concerns) when I'm writing were applicable to other authors, when they probably aren't always. The patronising element was I mentioned it without explaining that was how I felt and not how he feels so it therefore read as if I teaching him, which as I explained it wasn't my intent.

 

Re-read the tone and you can see I even mocked myself!

 

Read below:

 

Whilst I understand it's not always nice to be mis-interpreted (oh the indignant rage of those poor mis-understood souls!)

 

And what are arguing about? I was saying that I support his creative flair and would enjoy to keep seeing enigmatic comments etc in his story. Isn't that what you just said you want? Open possibility?

 

Sheez. :o

[Legatus]

two facts are there to have.

 

1. The Ultra's are massive in size much more so than word Bearers

The reasons for which were explained back in 2nd Edition.

 

 

2. The Ultra's did all of sudden get bigger

They didn't "suddenly" get bigger in the original fluff, but since that is what this new Black Library novel says it is probably what most people will now assume. In the original fluff, the Legion started steadily growing after Guilliman had been put in command, thanks to his excellent recruiting doctrine and thanks to the fact that the Ultramarines suffered fewer casualties in their battles than any other Legion.

 

We are not told exactly when Guilliman had been found, but it probably wasn't 2-3 years before that exchange between the Word Bearers. The Crusade lasted for 200 years in it's entirety, so he could have taken a few decades to grow from regular size to more than twice that. The Word Bearers themselves were supposedly much larger than other Legion, second only to the Ultramarines, and they 1) did not have the resources and recruitment methodology of the Ultramarines, and 2) suffered more casualties than the Ultramarines. If you think about it, they are probably the last Legion that should find the size of the Ultramarines puzzling.

 

Word Bearer: "We are the secoond largest Legion. But the Ultramarines, who recruit from eight entire systems and have very secure supply lines, and who suffer the least casualties during their engagements, are even bigger then us. How can this be?"

[Marshal Rohr]

BL did retcon the order the primarchs were found in. And if Johnson was found fairly late in the Crusade, then naturally Guilliman would have too, given it was so far from Terra.

[Hergrmir]

I haven't finished reading First Heretic yet, but at the reference I found, it sounded much more like the two primarchs were somehow "disciplined" and subsequently lost, but their legions were not lost but absorbed. Which sounds like the legion Astarte were relatively blameless.

 

I actually thought this was an elegant ret-con explaining what happened to the legions.

That's not what happened. That's just a few Word Bearers who have a grudge against the Ultramarines for quite a while making up wild conspiracy theories. It is definitely not a retcon. Just the author having some fun teasing the readers.

 

If I'd known people would really believe it was a hint, rather than several soldiers joking, I'd never have written it. I genuinely had no idea people would take it as fact. Most of the other HH references to the Lost Legions (especially in Prospero Burns) are spoken with an air of truth. In The First Heretic, in that scene, it's blatantly just some soldiers even admitting they know it's just a rumour.

 

EDIT:

 

Let's compare.

 

You have a Space Wolf categorically saying that his Legion has punished other Legions before, in that such an event "is not unprecedented" in Prospero Burns. I can completely see why readers will attribute that to the Lost Legions.

 

But the Word Bearers in The First Heretic are plainly saying it's just a rumour that would explain the Ultramarines' insane size, and they suspect it might be true. They have no evidence. It's a possibility, but I was careful not to make it a statement.

 

Well, firstly let me also add my compliments to TFH. Definitely one of the best of the HH lot, though to be fair there's a lot of competition.

 

Secondly, I'm a firm proponent of de-throning Authorial Intent in art :P . So yes, you may have meant it as a joke, but the interpretation that popped into my head was that although the Word Bearers didn't really think that the Ultramarines absorbed leftovers, they both had convinced themselves that it might have been a possibility. I'm not terribly interested in proofs-in-universe, as a cursory examination of our own beliefs show that there are lots of things we'll kinda cling to without firm evidence. To me, that made the Word Bearers more believable as characters. We all have these shadowy pseudo-beliefs lurking about in our heads somewhere.

 

And not to mention, the possibility that that happened is delicious.

[Captain Idaho]

BL did retcon the order the primarchs were found in. And if Johnson was found fairly late in the Crusade, then naturally Guilliman would have too, given it was so far from Terra.

 

As an Ultras player I would like this to be true, seeing as he liberated more worlds than any other Primarch (yet to be changed by BL), but given the fact most were equal I don't really see this working. He can't be that good, as he has similar resources to most Primarchs (the Word Bearers in particular).

 

Personally I don't believe distance from Terra had much to do with the speed of Primarch recovery. Caliban was relatively close to Terra in comparison to Baal or other worlds, yet was found late in the Crusade.

 

Do we know that he was found late, by the way? I can't seem to find the information?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Personally I don't believe distance from Terra had much to do with the speed of Primarch recovery. Caliban was relatively close to Terra in comparison to Baal or other worlds, yet was found late in the Crusade.

 

Do we know that he was found late, by the way? I can't seem to find the information?

 

I'd like to see an actual listing of the order in which they were found. The only solid information I know is that Perturabo was found before Angron, and that Alpharius was found last. I used to theorize that the Legion numbers were the order in which thery were found, but that doesn't seem to be the case in reality. :devil:

[Captain Idaho]

There are some duductions we can make, for example, Fulgrim was the mentor of Curze, so was found before him. Magnus was in Curze's dream about the Emperor I believe, so he was obviously there before him also.

 

I can't remember where I read, but there was evidence that Guilliman was one of the earlier Primarchs?

 

I would love a more definite time line though, as it would supply so much food for thought regarding motives, outlook and success.