Horus Heresy Discrepancies

[augustmanifesto]

Just for fun, I was wondering if we could compile a bloopers thread for the HH series. Where do the novels contradict themselves or otherwise not make sense?

 

To start off, the location of Imperial Fist First Captain Sigismund comes to mind. In Flight of the Eisenstein, Dorn returns with his veteran companies to Terra and orders Sigismund to lead to remainder of the Legion to the Istvaan system. Then, in Mechanicum, while on Terra with only four veteran companies, therefore presumably before the rest of the Legion returned from Istvaan, Dorn order Sigismund to Mars. ???

 

additions?

[Cyrox]

Legion sizes

 

Its been in the fluff for years that Space Marine Legions were approx 10,000 strong, with a few legions slightly above or below that by a few thousand. The only difference was the Ultramarines who had swelled to nearly 250K Marines, hence why they were to give rise to the most successor chapters

 

The HH books have altered the numbers somewhat, but so far its been inconsistant

[isilvra]

Thousand Sons and Emperors Children fleets both called 28th expedition.

 

Horus’s height: In one bit he is a head taller than an Astarte’s, in another he has to kneel to look one in the eye.

[Clewz]

One that really bugs the hell out of me (even though its a really little thing) is that in Fallen angels the Sons of Horus are still in the white Luna Wolves colours.

 

Also there's Ravens Flight where Corax is equipped differently to how he is in Fulgrim and First heretic

[Aegnor]

The only really serious one that literally threw me cOmpletely out of suspension of disbelief and really upset me so far was in Flight of the Eisenstein, when Garro met Dorn. Now in Horus Rising we see Dorn speaking with Loken and learn that Dorn personally recommended Loken for the Mournival. It stuck in my mind because it was one of the coolest bits of the whole damn book.

 

Fastforward to FotE, Garro mentions Loken and Dorn says "Loken, who's Loken" and has to check with Sigismund that he's an honourable man.

 

:P

[obs0l3te]

The entire Prospero Burns book doesn't fit. Well written but doesn't place.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Also there's Ravens Flight where Corax is equipped differently to how he is in Fulgrim and First heretic

 

You do realise that in the beginning of Ravens Flight it mentions that his jump-pack and lightning claws got damaged in the crash, so he leaves them there, bringing his other weapons with him?

[Necris]

I have one

 

In Nemesis Spear is a pariah a creation of the Cullexus to make the ultimate pariah... yet he's bonded to a daemon, how does that work?

 

Also Iota keeps getting called psyker is that just a POV of the others not fully understanding the pariah nature or a mistake?

[Aegnor]

Re Spear

He was a black pariah experimented upon by the Culuxus, but was meant to have been destroyed when they realized how dangerous he was. Somehow he wasn't destroyed, and subsequently Erebus found him and gave him the daemonskin. Making him into the creature we saw in Nemesis was a two stage process.

[Necris]

I got that about spear but he's still a pariah (The Ultimate Pariah is the masters are to be believed) surely having anything even warp related attached to him would be impossible

 

which is what I didn't get as I though pariah's were anti psyker/anti daemon

[Aegnor]

Ah, sorry. Get what you mean now. Hmmmm...

 

Dark magicks son. Dark magicks moste foule. :D

[Cypher441]

Well here's my 2p on sorting some descrepancies.

 

1. Sigismund is sent with the legion to investigate Garro's claims Horus was a traitor, taking much of the legion with him. He investigates, finds the claims are true, and then returns to Terra and informs Dorn. Dorn sorts out a counter-attack (dropsite) while the events of Mechanicum occur. It is stated in Mechanicum that the Imperial Fists only need to secure a few particular forges, those in charge of the production of armour, weapons and munitions for the Astartes, hence the small Imperial Fist force sent to Mars with Sigismund.

 

So essentially Sigismund came back, and a small force was sent to Mars because that is all that needed to be sent.

 

But to me, Mechanicum raises the question of: So what happened to Mars in the 7 years between the outbreak of the Heresy and the siege of Terra? The Imperium really let it sit there on Terra's doorstep for that long in blatant support of Horus? Hmmmm. Anyone got an answer?

 

2. Legion sizes got retconned. Personally I think the change is better, it makes it that little bit more believable to say the crusade was won with a couple of million marines rather than a couple of hundred-thousand. Sort of.

 

3. Corax's loadout. Despite my constant insistance that Horus used two lightning claws, not a mace, I have to admit that all the Primarchs had lots of weapons and equipment to wage war with. Even though Corax's jump pack and claws are damaged during the dropsite massacre, it is not unreasonable to presume he had a few other pieces of wargear lying around.

 

*edited because I mixed my books up, oops*

[augustmanifesto]

re: your Sigismund attempt:

 

nah, not buying it. Why would Sigisimund have returned either a) and the rest of the Legion returned with him and then departed elsewhere without him or Dorn, leaving only four veteran companies? ;) sigisimund returned alone?

 

neither makes much sense, especially since the Schism occurs so shortly after Istvaaan III that news of the heresy is just reaching Mars. It would have been impossible for a return voyage to Istvaan to have been made in that time, especially with the Warp Storm and such.

[Cerelius]

Legion sizes

 

Its been in the fluff for years that Space Marine Legions were approx 10,000 strong, with a few legions slightly above or below that by a few thousand. The only difference was the Ultramarines who had swelled to nearly 250K Marines, hence why they were to give rise to the most successor chapters

 

The HH books have altered the numbers somewhat, but so far its been inconsistant

 

 

in the early edition of the game, namely Epic the Legions where 100k+ or so, then it got retconned down to 10k+ and is now back up to the original idea+

[Cypher441]

re: your Sigismund attempt:

 

nah, not buying it. Why would Sigisimund have returned either a) and the rest of the Legion returned with him and then departed elsewhere without him or Dorn, leaving only four veteran companies? :D sigisimund returned alone?

 

neither makes much sense, especially since the Schism occurs so shortly after Istvaaan III that news of the heresy is just reaching Mars. It would have been impossible for a return voyage to Istvaan to have been made in that time, especially with the Warp Storm and such.

 

Well if you go by the fluff as it stands, it is likely that most (if not all) the Imperial Fists Legion that went out to Isstvan with Sigismund returned to Terra. They, along with Dorn and Sigismund didn't go anywhere, they stayed on Terra and fortified it, and that's been the basic premise of Imp Fist fluff for a long time. Like I said, only four companies went to Mars, not because that was all that the Legion had available, but because only four companies were required to secure the forges needed on Mars and bring back the armour and weapons.

 

Remember too, time flows strangely in the warp, and we don't have much to go on about the length of time between Isstvan 3/5. So it is entirely plausible for Sigismund to go to Isstvan and back in the time available. By the time Horus contacted Mars to get the Mechanicum on his side, Sigismund is back on Terra with the legion, and Dorn has ordered the 7 legions to Isstvan V.

[Crimson Fisting]

I think the way people behave in the whole HH series doesn't really make much sense. We know in 40,000 the Imperium and its citizens have reverted back to a very baroque, gothic, 'dark age' way of thinking about the universe, but in 30,000 when the Emperor still walked amongst mankind peoples mentality should be more enlightened, more science fiction, less dark fantasy so to speak, yet we still have things steaped in convoluted ritual and whatnot. Does this make sense, or does it just seem like I'm rambling. Basically, what I'm saying is the mentality of the Imperium in 40K is the way it is because there's been 10,000 years of oppression and regression to lead to the dark age it's become, but the BL authors write the Imperium of 30K as not being much different.

[Aegnor]

Disagree with that. Did you have any specific examples? Generally people are notably firmly optimistic about humanity's ability to build a better future. There's an element of emerging from darkness, where a lot that was known has been forgotten during the Age of Strife, but also a faith that they can rebuild or do it better.

[koran]

Im not 100% that its a discrepancy but I was always under the impression that Abaddon did not use a form of lightning claw until after he took Horus's...

[Clewz]

I think the way people behave in the whole HH series doesn't really make much sense. We know in 40,000 the Imperium and its citizens have reverted back to a very baroque, gothic, 'dark age' way of thinking about the universe, but in 30,000 when the Emperor still walked amongst mankind peoples mentality should be more enlightened, more science fiction, less dark fantasy so to speak, yet we still have things steaped in convoluted ritual and whatnot. Does this make sense, or does it just seem like I'm rambling. Basically, what I'm saying is the mentality of the Imperium in 40K is the way it is because there's been 10,000 years of oppression and regression to lead to the dark age it's become, but the BL authors write the Imperium of 30K as not being much different.

 

 

I don't think it ever changed its just the people at the the top of the pile like the Emperor saying its a golden age. If you look at the what the crusade actually does, i.e, wiping out cultures and knowledge because they don't fit the imperial ideal, then its quite clear to see. Its not quite the star trek approach is it

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

A D-B put it best: at its core, the Imperium is founded on a lie.

[augustmanifesto]

re: your Sigismund attempt:

 

nah, not buying it. Why would Sigisimund have returned either a) and the rest of the Legion returned with him and then departed elsewhere without him or Dorn, leaving only four veteran companies? :lol: sigisimund returned alone?

 

neither makes much sense, especially since the Schism occurs so shortly after Istvaaan III that news of the heresy is just reaching Mars. It would have been impossible for a return voyage to Istvaan to have been made in that time, especially with the Warp Storm and such.

 

Well if you go by the fluff as it stands, it is likely that most (if not all) the Imperial Fists Legion that went out to Isstvan with Sigismund returned to Terra. They, along with Dorn and Sigismund didn't go anywhere, they stayed on Terra and fortified it, and that's been the basic premise of Imp Fist fluff for a long time. Like I said, only four companies went to Mars, not because that was all that the Legion had available, but because only four companies were required to secure the forges needed on Mars and bring back the armour and weapons.

 

Remember too, time flows strangely in the warp, and we don't have much to go on about the length of time between Isstvan 3/5. So it is entirely plausible for Sigismund to go to Isstvan and back in the time available. By the time Horus contacted Mars to get the Mechanicum on his side, Sigismund is back on Terra with the legion, and Dorn has ordered the 7 legions to Isstvan V.

 

Actually, the old fluff, i.e. what's printed in Visions of Heresy, explicitly states the rest of the Legion had not yet returned when Imperial Fists Veteran Companies were deployed to mars. Further, in Mechanicum, i.e. the new fluff, Dorn laments only having four veteran compnies so, as a matter of fact, that was all that were available.

 

The only possible saving grace is "time flowing strangely in the warp." I suppose we could retconn what happened, but according to the old fluff, the Fists force travellingt to Istvaan spent most of its time in real space, trying to find a way to penetrate the warp storms. Similarly, in the new fluff, Dorn in Eisenstein notes his trip back to Terra was taking an unexpectedly long time because of the Warp Storms, undermining the viability of the above retconn. Even if we go with your retcon, there is still the issue of why Dorn and Sigismund would be with four companies and leave the rest of the legion effectively unattended. (Dorn made clear in Eisenstein that he prefers to have Sigismund in command of the Legion in his absence, afterall).

 

So, in other words, it seems like your explanation, while creative, is a bit gasping-at-straws ^_^

 

but maybe I'm thick headed

[Cypher441]

Well, whatever the location of the rest of the legion in that time, and the reasoning for that location, without the amount of time between Isstvan III and the events of Mechanicum being known, Sigismund can be placed on Terra/Mars, it's just a question of how long it took him to get there whether he came back with the rest of the legion or not.