MaveriK Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I realize that fluff and game mechanics don't always co-exist when it comes to the rules. We know that, when it comes to science fiction, anything is possible! however I have seen many people on these boards argue about certain pieces of fluff that seem over the top. In order to have more of an understand with a certain fluff, I've decided to do some experimenting to see if the questioned fluff can be explained through "common sense" and with what facts and information we have. From there I will conclude whether the fluff is; busted, plausible, or confirmed (fan-boy/lazy imagination). THUNDERWOLF CAVALRY (pg 34. Space Wolves Codex) From the fluff, we are told that thunderwolves are solitary creatures. Dangerous monsters that crave out its own territories in the mountains of Asaheim. We know that, physically it can reach up as high as eight feet in height and at the shoulder. It has rows of jagged teeth, and it kills by charging at and then biting off the heads of its prey. Its primary food animals are ice trolls, giant bears, Fenrisian mastodons and anything under that size, including man. From there "common sense" can tell us that no mere human/Fenrisian born can best a thunderwolf on their own. Maybe in a group? or traps.. its plausible. But for now unconfirmed. For a wolf guard space marine.. its a different story and something I'm going to test through dice, to see if this fluff either busted, plausible or confirmed (fan-boy/lazy imagination). The only factual information we are given is in our codex. So from there, I'm going to use the basic thunderwolf cavalry stats for the thunderwolf to face up against a wolf guard stat line. I have two sets of dice, each with different colors. One representing the wolf guard on his lone hunt, to gain his elite rank withing the thunderwolf cavalry. I'm going to assume that there wont be any shooting involved from the wolf guard so I'm just going to go with basic close combat weapons, to represent him "breaking in" the solitary beast. People are more than welcome to do their own experiment with this, all you need is the codex and dice. Best out of three combats to see if its possible for an elite space marine (wolf guard) to best this piece of fluff. Post your conclusions! this should be interesting and FUN at the same time. From there we can understand more about that piece of fluff or straight out call bull on it. I will post my conclusions later in the week. I want people to try this and see what they find out on their own and post it on here. The next piece of fluffbusters will be on Lukas the Trickster being bested by a Dark Eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Remember to factor in that a TWC will not have the CA special rule as it lacks the SW rider Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalachiOfRuss Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Aren't the TWC stats given for a "combined" Thunderwolf plus a veteran Space Marine? Isn't said Thunderwolf mount cybernetically enhanced in as well? I don't think that TWC Stats = Thunderwolf alone stats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schertenleib Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Remember to factor in that a TWC will not have the CA special rule as it lacks the SW rider Why not. The Fenrisian Wolves have CA don't they? Don't have my codex ready at hand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 I like the brainstorming guys! keep it up. Just now I did a quick experiment... this is what I have so far. We can discuss and extrapolate on the results as we keep on going here. This is what I love about science and experiments, more causes and variables come up to make things more interesting and fun. I'm going off by memory here, as I don't have my codex at hand. So feel free to correct me if I made any errors. This test is with the assumed thunderwolf stat-line from the SW: codex, minus its ballistic skill. The wolf guard and thunderwolf both have an initiative of 4. Both wolf guard and thunderwolf also have a weapon skill of 4. On a charge, WG has 4 attacks. WG hits on 4+ and WG wounds on 5+ On a charge, TW has 5 attacks. TW hits on 4+ and TW wounds on 3+ (1st roll both with the charge) TW = 3 hits, does 3 wounds on wolf guard. = wolf guard saves 2 wounds, but fails 1. WG = 3 hits, does 0 wounds (2nd roll both with the charge) TW = 3 hits, does 1 wound = both make their save WG = 3 hits, does 1 wound = both make their save (3rd roll both with the charge) TW = 2 hits, does 1 wound on wolf guard = wolf guard makes his save WG = 4 hits, does 3 wounds = thunderwolf saves 2 wounds, but fails 1. This test is with the Fenrisian Wolf stat-line, proxy for thunderwolf. The only changes I made with the assumptions from the known fluff are rending, and T5. I are both 4. WS both 4 on a charge, WG has 4 attacks on a charge, TW has 4 attacks TW hits on 4+ WG hits on 4+ TW wounds on 4+ WG wounds on 5+ (1st roll both with the charge) WG = hits 1, wounds 1 = fails save TW = hits 2, wounds 1 = fails save (2nd roll both with the charge) WG = hits 3, doesn't wound TW = hits 2, doesn't wound (3rd roll both with the charge) WG = hits 2, wounds 2 = thunderwolf makes both save. TW = hits 2 + 1 rending, wounds 1 = wolf guard fails one save, excluding the rending. Alright, I think I did this right? like I said.. going off by memory here and without a codex. Anyway, we can do the math but its clear to see that it can easily go both ways depending on the dice rolls. Now we need to find an acceptable stat-line for a thunderwolf. Now outside the experiment and looking at the fluff... we know that this will be difficult task for the lone wolf guard. Looking back at the thunderwolf stat and rules, excluding the obvious variables. We know that a thunderwolf can reach its opponent from a large distance. The wolf guard and thunderwolf both strike at the same initiative, even with the other experiment of using the initiative of a fen wolf. What say you people? lets brainstorm some more! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Maybe it's more to do with passing Ld tests rather than physically subduing the thunderwolf in HtH? Something like if the wolfguard wins the first round of combat and then passes a Ld test, the wolf recognises him as the new leader of its pack? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 Maybe it's more to do with passing Ld tests rather than physically subduing the thunderwolf in HtH? Something like if the wolfguard wins the first round of combat and then passes a Ld test, the wolf recognises him as the new leader of its pack? there is an idea! i will look into this, and add it along with the results from the recent dice rolls. now looking outside the box so to speak, open scenario: wolf guard wins first round of combat. the thunderwolf therefore has two options, yeild or attack in anger. animal behavior would indicate.. if a wild animal is cornered, its allot more dangerous. would it be possible of a giant thunderwolf beast to yield from his loss? or would the animal instinct put up a good fight and react from his first loss? i'm thinking it would snap back at the wolf guard several times before your broken in. does anyone know how long it takes to break in an animal? say a wild horse or training a dog? circus animal even? just to consider if this fluff is either bull or plausible! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphus Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I always thought TWC should have two profiles...one for the marine and one for the thunder wolf, makes sense fluff/battle wise but would it work on the tabletop? I mean, while the thunder wolf is attacking the marine would also etc. On a more related note I think a Twolf would follow a space wolf out of respect of being bested. Sure in the codex it says notable senior space wolves do extreme hunting practices to assumably obtain Twolves I think they wouldn't have a breeding chamber or anything where they could be reared. And also, what sort of marines would ride them? The ones who bested the wolf or would there be specially trained marines to ride them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I just feel obligated to point out that there is a difference between "cavalry" and "Calvary". V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 I just feel obligated to point out that there is a difference between "cavalry" and "Calvary". V LOL i was too lazy to fix it, stupid iPhone auto correct --EDIT-- fixed, shine your shoe while I'm at it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I just feel obligated to point out that there is a difference between "cavalry" and "Calvary". V LOL i was too lazy to fix it, stupid iPhone auto correct --EDIT-- fixed, shine your shoe while I'm at it? Not necessary. Yeah, my iPhone pisses me off most of the time, too. Felt the need since I see it on here all of the time, and you weren't the only one in this thread. Keep up the good work, Mav. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 LOL all good, you to wolf brother! your one of my favorite posters here, also one of the good members here at the fang! CHEERS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki-LaughingDeath Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 If you are going into xenobiology here there are a few things to consider. From the nearly non-existant description of their behavior, we are going to have to make a decision as to their behavior. Are these wee beasties more like wolves or tigers? The question is most pressing because as top niche predators are they willing to concede when beaten, or are they going down swinging? An alpha wolf will concede to a stronger rival and become a lesser member of the pack, rarely will they fight to the death. Tigers on the other hand, well you bring two big wild breeding males together and you got about a half ton of fury out for blood. The description that they gave us sounds like tigers. A wolf guard sounds like he is dragging the darn thing back rather than riding it. One other thing, from the above description, these guys like bait, guess who gets the job. I am going to go off a hunch from the last codex, the wolf pelt....... Only way to get one was a precisely timed counter attack. I guess they gave the Wolf Guard the option of non lethal options so they could have a friend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Remember to factor in that a TWC will not have the CA special rule as it lacks the SW rider Why not. The Fenrisian Wolves have CA don't they? Don't have my codex ready at hand. Yes, but those are ones that are part of the VI Legion/Chapter and are a C:SW unit. This is a wild TW, not one that has been trained for close combat, but relies on its natural instincts. So I would argue that it does not enjoy the advantages of C:SW special rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmund Hammerhand Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 This is a wild TW, not one that has been trained for close combat, but relies on its natural instincts. If you have a look at the entry for fenrisian wolves in the codex, it says (and I quote) "Fenrisian Wolves are dauntless predators whose natural response to aggression is to go for the throat" As a reasoning for counter attack. You don't train overdeveloped canines for combat because humans have very little to teach to natural killers methinks. All you do is piss them off and then let them loose on the enemy. I wouldn't call counter attack a precisely timed master strike or something. It's just the tendency to charge right in instead of bracing for impact. No training required, especially not for creatures that need this strategy to survive. Fluff wise, I guess a wolf guard in power armour could crush a thunderwolf with one hand behind his back and looking the other way. I don't think there's much sense in trying to "bust" codex mythis by seeing if they actually work. Most fluff (especially in the Space Wolf codex) is written like a grand tale where exaggeration serves only to make the story more interesting. A story of how ten heroic savages hold out against uncounted thousands of creepy crawlies is much more exciting than an old wolf briefly looking up from his drink to say "Oh yeah, there was this creature thing with four arms, so I shot it and then we won" before falling back into apathy. The stories are meant to be inspiring and cool and I would say the only time you can "recreate" these tales in battle is when you roll exceptionally well, and your troops outdo themselves many times over. And that is about right because if every battle they ever fought was a heroic victory where none of the goodies died and the baddies ended up all dead before a shot is fired, then the Imperium wouldn't be in such a bad spot right now. Also I'd have to say rolling dice to solves this isn't a very good method because anything can happen, and doing a combat three times can have both sides coming out on top depending on the dice. I don't mean to shoot this idea down, though. I love pitching two characters against each other (like Logan and Papa Smurf) and just have them fight it out. But if you want to do this "muythbuster style" I'd say you would have to go all mathsy and use averages. And in that case, the model with the better stats (in this case the thunderwolf) is going to win. Thing is, if a wolf guard won every time he fought a Thunderwolf, why'd they ever rock up in terminator armour, or heaven forbid on foot? In that case the fluff would be makin' no sense whatsoever... If I could ride a mastodon-wolf-thing into battle that lets me take lascannon shots to the face with my only reaction being to give whoever shot me the finger, why would I do anything else? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaitoc Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 We still have the fact that they're large canines...Wolves or dogs backs are NOT made for riding them, it will destroy their backs! If a St.Bernard, German Shepherd or an irish wolfdog shouldn't be ridden by a 2 year old, so shouldn't thunderwolves be by a space marine with comparable size of a two year old to the thunderwolf....only that this two year old is clad in a REALLY heavy armour! If thunderwolves were all mechanical, I would buy the concept (even though bikes seems like a better idea than mechanical steeds with legs). But a large canine WILL develop back and hip problems when ridden, even if the rider is small compared to the canine! It has to do with their anatomy, and since thunderwolves both moves and looks like REALLY big wolves, they would quickly develop the same problems! Thunderwolf cavalry doesn't exist for me! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 We still have the fact that they're large canines...Wolves or dogs backs are NOT made for riding them, it will destroy their backs! If a St.Bernard, German Shepherd or an irish wolfdog shouldn't be ridden by a 2 year old, so shouldn't thunderwolves be by a space marine with comparable size of a two year old to the thunderwolf....only that this two year old is clad in a REALLY heavy armour! If thunderwolves were all mechanical, I would buy the concept (even though bikes seems like a better idea than mechanical steeds with legs). But a large canine WILL develop back and hip problems when ridden, even if the rider is small compared to the canine! It has to do with their anatomy, and since thunderwolves both moves and looks like REALLY big wolves, they would quickly develop the same problems! Thunderwolf cavalry doesn't exist for me! Biology and fluffbusting theoretical xeno biology are two very different things. These are Wolves that have "evolved" on another planet. The current codex describes them as having a physiology "more in common with a Terran rhinoceroid than a normal canine" (which may account for the "funny look" of the only available model so far :tu: ). I think it's safe to say that these beasts (which can be 8 feet high at the shoulder and on the skeleto-muscular level more closely resemble a rhino than a dog) can be ridden by a Space Marine, otherwise over the last 10,000 years they'd have phased out the practice. Anyone know if you can ride a rhino? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublindawg Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I think the idea of Marines riding wolves into battle is not to far fetched. It's not like GW is coming up with a totally new concept of a humanoid riding a wolf beast into battle. If my memory serves me correctly Tolkien had orcs riding wolves in the Hobbit, so this idea has been around for a long time. During WWI and even WWII troops used dogs as pack animals to carry supplies. Who is say that a wolf the size of vehicle like a Rhino couldn't support the weight of a Marine and power Armor. Also if said wolf has been cybernically (sp) enhanced, who's to say that the back of the wolf wouldn't be one of the first things to be improved to allow one to ride it. On that note people say if you're going to add artificial improvements to a wolf and make it more machine than beast, why not just ride a motorcycle. Last I checked a motorcycle is a lot more noisey, has to be refueled and cannot jump from rock to rock and traverse difficult terrain like an animal can. A wolf is a lot more quieter and can live off the land if needed and the environment supports it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysten Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 We still have the fact that they're large canines...Wolves or dogs backs are NOT made for riding them, it will destroy their backs! If a St.Bernard, German Shepherd or an irish wolfdog shouldn't be ridden by a 2 year old, so shouldn't thunderwolves be by a space marine with comparable size of a two year old to the thunderwolf....only that this two year old is clad in a REALLY heavy armour! If thunderwolves were all mechanical, I would buy the concept (even though bikes seems like a better idea than mechanical steeds with legs). But a large canine WILL develop back and hip problems when ridden, even if the rider is small compared to the canine! It has to do with their anatomy, and since thunderwolves both moves and looks like REALLY big wolves, they would quickly develop the same problems! Thunderwolf cavalry doesn't exist for me! Stop comparing them to Terran wolves. Wolves on Fenris are a entirely different breed of animals when compared to Terran wolves as they have been closer compared to Rhinos then conventional wolves. The fluff itself states that they greatly vary in size, from small to the size of Terran Rhinos. I believe Thunder Wolf are closer to Rhinos rather then thunderwolves. They are solidary preditors that is not something we could find on this planet. This is something hardly new as in a univerce which has demons, mutated soldiers and super advanced acient races and stagment momo cultures, riding a giantic beast is easily beliable in the grand scope of things. As for Counter attack, Wolves probably should have that since they are natural preditors, they respond to violence with more violence. Thunderwolves would throw themselves and meet strength with more strength, and that only the weaker preditor will back off first. That being said, I don't think the wolf guard would pull any punches in their hunt, traps. The Wolf probably would not have been renforced to have armor, but would still have rending. While the power weapon and fists may be better repersented by direct argumentation to the wolf, it can easily be modelled that way anyway and it's fangs and it is strong enough to perice armour. That being said, due to the increased cost attached to more wounds, ever considered a lone wolf guard would be treated in a simlar manner to a Lone Wolf? Minus much of the special wounds? Always found it strange that a Lone Wolf would lose a wound for joining a wolf guard pack Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2615889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 "Fenrisian Wolves are dauntless predators whose natural response to aggression is to go for the throat" As a reasoning for counter attack. You don't train overdeveloped canines for combat because humans have very little to teach to natural killers methinks. All you do is piss them off and then let them loose on the enemy. I wouldn't call counter attack a precisely timed master strike or something. It's just the tendency to charge right in instead of bracing for impact. No training required, especially not for creatures that need this strategy to survive. Actually, it's not so simple. For example, war dogs require a lot of preparation for combat as canines are natural scavenger/predators that prefer to work with numbers on their side. Indeed, they need to be specifically bred to reduce their instinct to skulk and make full use of all their potential to inflict maximum damage in close combat. Going for the throat is not the same as CA as the TW's attacks include its claws and ability to attack many vulnerable areas. Your quote actually provides an argument for reduced attacks when charged as it single mindedly goes for one area part of the target using only one part of its natural arsenal. Hey ho! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2616025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I think the idea of Marines riding wolves into battle is not to far fetched. It's not like GW is coming up with a totally new concept of a humanoid riding a wolf beast into battle. If my memory serves me correctly Tolkien had orcs riding wolves in the Hobbit, so this idea has been around for a long time. " There are huge white bears, savage engines of death twenty foot tail, weighing many tons. " Eh, to hell with Thunderwolf Cavalry, I want Fenrisian Bear Cavalry! V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2616057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublindawg Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm with you in wanting to see Bear Cavalry. I loved the old Grenadier models of Dwarves riding bears into battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2616090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 some good discussions here! allot to think about and consider. yes, i am a tad disappointed that the writers have subjugated us to "wolf wolf wolf" only, there are plenty of other Fenris wildlife out there like giant bears or mountain lions. I liked the chaos war mammoth forge world piece, if I had the money and time.. I was gonna proxy it as a fellblade LOL Right now, from all the colletive thinking gathered here.. I'm leaning towards a conclusion of plausible. Although to some if not most people, the fluff and idea of a thunderwolf cavalry can be seen as ridicalous, and lazy imaginative writing. I myself have no problems accepting the idea, as a unit on the table-top. If the fluff was thought-out and written nicely, I think it would be a different story. Canis on another hand, just makes things allot more difficult to swallow, especially if your trying to sell the idea of thunderwolves! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2616311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 For a while I considered some sort of "ice dragon" riding space wolf instead of a Dreadnaught, or even a predator or something so I'm good with the idea too, I just wish that as you said, Mav, the fluff should be fluffier! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2616404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olgerth Istaarn Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 "There are no wolves on Fenris", so any physiological comparison to a Terran wolf is moot. Marines on living mounts is not a novel idea. At one point, there was this thingy: Ye Olde Limitede Release Space Marine Riding Lizard, briefly available as a mail-order... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219276-space-wolf-fluffbusters-mythbusters/#findComment-2616436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.