Space Wolf: Fluffbusters (Mythbusters)

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Fellow Wolves, I have had an epiphany!!

 

I will have Thunder Wolves, just not cavalry, instead there will be the glorious wolf guard who thought it was a great idea being lead(read as DRAGGED) by his loving pet!

 

I was not about to give this voice last time I wrote, but now after reading more, I think this is closer to true. I believe that the Thunderwolves used as companions are not wild born, but domestically raised. The more I think of how nature is what it is and resists the change wrought by the hand of man. I don't know how many of you are aware of the attempt to domesticate wolves in the former Czech republic, but it failed. The wolves even though raised from pups were what they were and incapable of recognizing the dominance of their masters. In the end all the cubs were returned to a wolf sanctuary.

 

Another explanation is this. All the Primarchs were created with differing abilities and stolen before they came to maturation. Russ landed in the wilds of Fenris and was adopted by an Alpha Female who raised him. During the time he was with the Wolves, Russ was still growing and maturing, what is to say that part of his strength was not a genetic adaption, think osmosis of what was around him. This is passed down in some of his sons stronger than in others which allow these examples to go into the wild and find a rapport with the Wolves of Fenris and establish a pack with them. Ours is the only chapter that creates the Wolf men when things go wrong during the implantation of the Canis Helix. What other chapter sprouts monsters like ours? And where did it come from?

[Demonslayer]

Fluff wise, I guess a wolf guard in power armour could crush a thunderwolf with one hand behind his back and looking the other way.

 

I always thought, just like when they were recruited, they went naked, its not a true trial if they have all there fancy goodies with them.

 

I waiting for the first Space Wolf army that will look like a circus:)

 

Dragons= Landspeeder

Ice Trolls= Dreadnoughts

Mammoths= Tanks

 

Thats all I can think of right now :lol:

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

Actually, it's not so simple. For example, war dogs require a lot of preparation for combat as canines are natural scavenger/predators that prefer to work with numbers on their side. Indeed, they need to be specifically bred to reduce their instinct to skulk and make full use of all their potential to inflict maximum damage in close combat.

 

Thing is, the wolves aren't bred. A dog only turns into a fluffy cuddly thing because that's the way people treat their dogs. If you make them fight from the beginning, course they're going to be not very fluffy at all. But the Space Wolves just go out and smack the alpha wolf of a pack and the rest of the bunch follow whoever killed the alpha male instead. They're way too old to be trained for anything. Same for Thunder wolves. They don't live in packs, for starters, they live by themselves so there isn't any pack mentality. And secondly, they're fully grown, and trying ot teach a dog thats a couple of months old something completely against it's instincts is difficult at best, with a fully grown one it's hopeless. That thunderwolf has its fighting style sorted, and there ain't no one whos going to change that.

 

Going for the throat is not the same as CA as the TW's attacks include its claws and ability to attack many vulnerable areas. Your quote actually provides an argument for reduced attacks when charged as it single mindedly goes for one area part of the target using only one part of its natural arsenal.

 

How does it provide an argument for reduced attacks, if GW used it as an argument for extra attacks?

Also you'd have to consider that "going for the throat" isn't necessarily just that, but rather a kind of poetic way of describing how a wolf reacts to aggression. When fighting an enemy in armour, the throat is also one of the very few viably targets for your attacks anyway, so even if "going for the throat" was interpreted literally, it'd provide enough reasoning for getting CA as opposed to not getting it because someone is preparing to defend themselves rather than charging in.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Thing is, the wolves aren't bred. A dog only turns into a fluffy cuddly thing because that's the way people treat their dogs. If you make them fight from the beginning, course they're going to be not very fluffy at all.

 

My point - dogs have to be bred to fight. Both they and wolves are not assault predators in their natural state by scavengers.

 

But the Space Wolves just go out and smack the alpha wolf of a pack and the rest of the bunch follow whoever killed the alpha male instead. They're way too old to be trained for anything. Same for Thunder wolves. They don't live in packs, for starters, they live by themselves so there isn't any pack mentality. And secondly, they're fully grown, and trying to teach a dog thats a couple of months old something completely against it's instincts is difficult at best, with a fully grown one it's hopeless. That thunderwolf has its fighting style sorted, and there ain't no one whos going to change that.

 

A lot of deductions there from quite limited fluff - for example, if they are loners then how can they operate as a pack of up to five in C:SW? Does it mention that all the TWs are fully grown when selected?

 

How does it provide an argument for reduced attacks, if GW used it as an argument for extra attacks?

 

They don't - hence berserk attack is compensated by the reduced WS on BCs. Furious charge would be more representative of the description of how TWs fight

 

Also you'd have to consider that "going for the throat" isn't necessarily just that, but rather a kind of poetic way of describing how a wolf reacts to aggression. When fighting an enemy in armour, the throat is also one of the very few viably targets for your attacks anyway, so even if "going for the throat" was interpreted literally, it'd provide enough reasoning for getting CA as opposed to not getting it because someone is preparing to defend themselves rather than charging in.

 

How can you be certain that the language is poetic and not an accurate description of how canines actually fight. Canines do 'go for the throat' unless otherwise trained.

 

Regards,

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

I know dogs have to be bred, or at least held in a way that turns them into fighters. But fenrisian wolves seem to be taking a drastic turn towards being grey sabretooth tigers. An apex predator is most definitely not a scavenger, yet the codex says that on fenris, wolves are one of the most advanced kinds of predators around. It also mentions the huge variety of wolves on fenris. What I'd deduce from this is that there are scavengers and there are sabretooth tigers. And the space wolves presumably take a liking to the ones that try to bite the enemy's head off while he's still alive.

 

I assume that TW can operate in packs because they've had the bejeezus beaten out of them once before by their riders and decided that it might be a good idea to do as they're told lest it happens again. I just don't see a way that monstrosities like that can be taught anything. Although if the wolf guard goes and kid... err, wolfnaps them while they're pups, that would explain how he can win the fight :) Presumably a limited amount of training is possible, but I would also assume that the wolves are captured when they're loners, therefore developed far enough to have learned how to survive, and by then they can hardly be taught anything (if there is any similarity to dogs at all).

 

They don't - hence berserk attack is compensated by the reduced WS on BCs. Furious charge would be more representative of the description of how TWs fight

 

I don't quite see how the bloodclaws come into this... but they do use it in the rules for the fenrisian wolves. What I quoted is the exact reason why they gave fenrisian wolf packs an extra attack (well, countercharge). We don't know what thunder wolves would be like on their own, so the only assumption we can make (although it is indeed a very flawed one, considering thunder wolves seem to be another species entirely) is that there are some similarities, like the tendency to take the initiative and bite the threat's head off before it can do the same.

 

Of course I'm not certian that this is merely a poetic expression, and I am aware that that's what canines do, but considering that wolves are supposed to be reasonably intelligent, I assume that they are able to change tactics when they work out that whatever they're doing isn't working. I just think we can't interpret that statement completely literally, but I don't claim to know what they meant there, its just the way I choose to interpret it.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I guess we'll just arguing about the price of fish anyway, little brother.

 

Have a good week :)

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

I guess we'll just arguing about the price of fish anyway

 

Fish is expensive, but you have a point.

 

little brother

 

little... I was once, but then I got better. I don't know anyone who connects the word "little" to me now :D

[TiguriusX]

Actually, it's not so simple. For example, war dogs require a lot of preparation for combat as canines are natural scavenger/predators that prefer to work with numbers on their side. Indeed, they need to be specifically bred to reduce their instinct to skulk and make full use of all their potential to inflict maximum damage in close combat.

 

Thing is, the wolves aren't bred. A dog only turns into a fluffy cuddly thing because that's the way people treat their dogs. If you make them fight from the beginning, course they're going to be not very fluffy at all. But the Space Wolves just go out and smack the alpha wolf of a pack and the rest of the bunch follow whoever killed the alpha male instead. They're way too old to be trained for anything. Same for Thunder wolves. They don't live in packs, for starters, they live by themselves so there isn't any pack mentality. And secondly, they're fully grown, and trying ot teach a dog thats a couple of months old something completely against it's instincts is difficult at best, with a fully grown one it's hopeless. That thunderwolf has its fighting style sorted, and there ain't no one whos going to change that.

 

 

I strongly disagree with the natural disposition of a dog v. wolf discussed above.

 

Dogs have been selectively bred for hundreds of years. Certain traits and behaviors are gone from domesticated dogs that simply can't be trained out of wolves.

 

Dogs are "fluffly cuddly" because they have been bred to be predisposed to that. There have been plenty of documentaries on people obsessed with wolves that go into detail on the differences.

 

I own english bulldogs. Famous for their good natured disposition. Yet not too long ago these were pit fighting dogs bred for the sole purpose of baiting bulls to prepare them for market. The breed was selectively bred to remove aggression and retain good disposition.

 

Wolves have had no selective breeding to remove unwanted traits. That is the primary difference even if you get a wolf pup and raise it from scratch you can't predict what will occur. This is what usually gets the wolf obsessed owner killed. He views and treats it as a domesticated dog instead of a wolf.

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Dogs have been selectively bred for hundreds of years. Certain traits and behaviors are gone from domesticated dogs that simply can't be trained out of wolves.

 

Actually dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years, more likely tens of thousands of years. The domestication process is actually quite fascinating. There is a study started in Siberia, using silver foxes and they selectively bred the least aggressive and most curious foxes for domestication, then they bred the most vicious and aggressive foxes as a control group. The end result is that the ones selectively bred started to enjoy the company of humans and displaying more colors and body types, where as the control group remained sable foxes, no changes in attitude, color or body type.

 

Here is a link for anyone interested.

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/fe...ox-experiment/1

 

That is one of the theories as to how wolves became dogs. There were wolves who were comfortable living in proximity with humans and eventually man was able to get his hands on the most sociable of these wolves and the rest is history. If you take a wolf that is aggressive and frightened it will breed wolves, if you take a wolf that is sociable and curious and breed it eventually, you will get dogs. I am waiting for somebody to do the same Silver Fox experiment using wolves. Domestication is a complex and highly selective process, and as with many natural experiments, there are going to be genetic throwbacks who will come up with that wild aggressive genome.

[Valerian]

Dogs have been selectively bred for hundreds of years. Certain traits and behaviors are gone from domesticated dogs that simply can't be trained out of wolves.

 

Actually dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years, more likely tens of thousands of years. The domestication process is actually quite fascinating. There is a study started in Siberia, using silver foxes and they selectively bred the least aggressive and most curious foxes for domestication, then they bred the most vicious and aggressive foxes as a control group. The end result is that the ones selectively bred started to enjoy the company of humans and displaying more colors and body types, where as the control group remained sable foxes, no changes in attitude, color or body type.

 

 

Somebody has been watching Nova.

 

V

[MaveriK]

interesting add-on from the updated SW: FAQ more things for us to consider.. "Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5. This is because the

Toughness value represents both the Toughness of the Space Marine and the Toughness of the Thunderwolf (which is, if anything, more impressive than even a

member of the Astartes)."

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Yeah I caught a glimpse of it on Nova, but I got more interested and did some more digging.....wanted to get the wife one for a pet :D They are not for sale however :(

 

Besides I have been a history buff for years and one of the things that has always popped up is the fact that dogs are the first domesticated animal. Scientists think that they have been domesticated for around 10000 years. Remains have been found in ancient burial sites predating written history and once writing comes into play well then things get a little less murky. Written records indicate that there were hounds used to hunt Gazelle by Assyrian and Babylonian rulers not to mention the bronze plates. There were mummified remains of hounds found with Egyptian Pharaohs.

 

But that has nothing to do with xenobiology(love how my spelling program consistently tells me this is not a word) or the original math behind the fluff busting. I take part of the blame when it comes into a discussion of dogs domestication from wolves.

 

Valerian you also forgot http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/do...roduction/1273/

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

little brother

 

little... I was once, but then I got better. I don't know anyone who connects the word "little" to me now :D

 

It's a Nordic thing ...

[hendrik]

have you considered lowering the thunderwolf his attacks, since in it's current statline the rider wouldn't do any close combat work.i'd say it has to be lowered by at least 2!;)

[Wulf Vengis]

We know from the new Errata and FAQ that the stats of the TWC are modified to represent the combined stats of the TWM and the Wolf Guard rider. So in my tests I have modified the stat line of the TWM to show its abilities before being broken in.

 

TWM: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld6 Sv5+

 

In my test the Wolf Guard is ambushed by the superior hunting skills of the Thunder Wolf.

 

Test 1

Round 1: The TWM makes a quick assault but fails to land any hits. The WG counters and lands a grazing blow but the TWM shrugs it off.

Round 2: The TWM lands quick hit and feeds on the succulent meat within the WG armor for hours.

Victor: Thunder Wolf

 

Test 2

Round 1: The TWM charges in hard, the WG turns to face and raises for the counter. The jaws of the TWM tear the head from his shoulders. There is no time to counter-attack.

Victor: Thunder Wolf

 

Test 3

Round 1: The TWM leaps from hiding catching the WG completely off guard, striking two hits but failing to penetrate the armor of the lone astartes. The WG swings his chainsword stiking a deep wound the beasts side. The TWM knows when its beaten bares its neck for the dominant fighter.

Victor: Wolf Guard

 

We see in this scenario that the TWM seems to be the superior warrior.

[MaveriK]

We know from the new Errata and FAQ that the stats of the TWC are modified to represent the combined stats of the TWM and the Wolf Guard rider. So in my tests I have modified the stat line of the TWM to show its abilities before being broken in.

 

TWM: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld6 Sv5+

 

In my test the Wolf Guard is ambushed by the superior hunting skills of the Thunder Wolf.

 

Test 1

Round 1: The TWM makes a quick assault but fails to land any hits. The WG counters and lands a grazing blow but the TWM shrugs it off.

Round 2: The TWM lands quick hit and feeds on the succulent meat within the WG armor for hours.

Victor: Thunder Wolf

 

Test 2

Round 1: The TWM charges in hard, the WG turns to face and raises for the counter. The jaws of the TWM tear the head from his shoulders. There is no time to counter-attack.

Victor: Thunder Wolf

 

Test 3

Round 1: The TWM leaps from hiding catching the WG completely off guard, striking two hits but failing to penetrate the armor of the lone astartes. The WG swings his chainsword stiking a deep wound the beasts side. The TWM knows when its beaten bares its neck for the dominant fighter.

Victor: Wolf Guard

 

We see in this scenario that the TWM seems to be the superior warrior.

great work! and very interesting results.

[TiguriusX]

Also adds value to the WG that survive to return with a TWM

[Wolf Lord Zarnac]

I've always thought that the space wolf did caught the TW in his test, before he had finished being given all the organs and things that make him a true space wolf. Shouldn't you take into account that the Wolf Guard would have like Mark of the Wulfen, since he'd be more beast than man at this point?

[TiguriusX]

I've always thought that the space wolf did caught the TW in his test, before he had finished being given all the organs and things that make him a true space wolf. Shouldn't you take into account that the Wolf Guard would have like Mark of the Wulfen, since he'd be more beast than man at this point?

 

Why would you think that? P.34 of our codex says senior members do it and it may be an initiation rite for Wolf Guard.

[Wulf Vengis]

Welcome back to Fluffbusters. Tonight weve been busting Thunder Wolf Cavalry fluff and so far weve seen that if the Thunder Wolf gets the charge it will win approximately 2 out of 3 times. Now for this next experiment were going to see what happens if the Grey Hunter gets the charge. Well be using the same stat lines as in our previous tests to keep things consecutive.

 

Test 1

Round 1: The WG charges in fastbefore the TWM is even aware of his presence and connects twice, the beast shrugs off the first but the second drawing first blood. The TWM stikes back landing one good blow, but the WGs armor protects him. The TWM stands its gorund against this strange threat.

Round 2: The WG swings wildly failing to hit the TWM. The TWM fails to penetrate the Wgs armor yet again. The two opponents square off and lock eyes.

Round 3: The WG strikes hard but the TWM narrowly dodges the attacks, and counters but the WG matches its speed and avoids the attacks.

Round 4: The WG is unable to land any blows , and the TWM takes advantage of its foes mistake and rends through its armor gutting the marine instantlyt.

Victor: Thunder Wolf

 

Test 2

Round 1: The WG leaps in to attack but the TWM is ready and launches itself at the marine. The WG chainsword digs deep into the TWMs neck as the TWs jaws tear the head from the marines shoulders.

Victor: DRAW

 

Test 3

Round 1: The WG attacks but is met by the equally prepared TW. The WGs chainsword strikes three times but fails to do more than anger the beast. The TWs counter however is far more effective and the TW feasts on the marine.

Victor: Thunder Wolf

 

So as we can see the Thunder Wolf once again proves to be the better hunter. Id have to say this fluff is BUSTED. But feel free to run your own tests at home and send us your results.

[MaveriK]

Huzzah! :D MMM.. this puts something into question now, so those wolf guard that failed. Their gene seed need to be collected right? so how would a Wolf Priest fair up against a thunderwolf since he would be invading thunderwolf territory! interesting. These test and results do say allot, and I agree with what wolf brother TiguriusX said about wolf guard, it says allot about a marine who can win over a thunderwolf.

[Quillen]

Guys put it into fluff perspective.

 

The Wolf Gaurd has the feel of another wolf to them. We think like them and have sences like them. You're making into a beat down to control one.

 

A new wolf can enter a pack. He can even de-throne the alpha, thou it's rare.

 

Our Wolf gaurd goes out seeking a mount. He see it and they size each other up. Some mounts might instictively follow with no fighting what so ever. Wolves do this in the pack. They sence the power and ability and insticnt takes over and they submit.

 

Some might think they are the Alpha and you will have a fight. Once he starts losing he will bare his throat, and he gats a mount. If it's a pack one takes the alpha out and his Battle bothers find wolves in the pecking order they could use for mounts.

 

As to why take them, it's a great choice. Wolves are quieter then bikes. Can fight on thier own. Can heal minor damage on their own. Can travel places man made vehicles can not go. Can never run out of wolf gas. Anything meaty will make a meal for one. And I imagine they can help hunt for food for you too. Just like we use dogs when hunting now. I love my hounds.

 

So I see it as a wolf walks into thier pack. Takes over and picks a mount.

[Wolf Lord Zarnac]

QUOTE (Wolf Lord Zarnac @ Jan 18 2011, 03:43 PM)

I've always thought that the space wolf did caught the TW in his test, before he had finished being given all the organs and things that make him a true space wolf. Shouldn't you take into account that the Wolf Guard would have like Mark of the Wulfen, since he'd be more beast than man at this point?

 

Why would you think that? P.34 of our codex says senior members do it and it may be an initiation rite for Wolf Guard.

 

Sorry, I was confusing it with the fluff on pg. 10. my bad

[Schertenleib]

As to why take them, it's a great choice. Wolves are quieter then bikes. Can fight on thier own. Can heal minor damage on their own. Can travel places man made vehicles can not go. Can never run out of wolf gas. Anything meaty will make a meal for one. And I imagine they can help hunt for food for you too. Just like we use dogs when hunting now. I love my hounds.

 

 

This is why I think Saga of the Hunter should be available to IC's on TWMs. I can understand not being able to sneak around in TDA, but a Thunderwolf should be able to do it naturally. :lol:

[hendrik]

As to why take them, it's a great choice. Wolves are quieter then bikes. Can fight on thier own. Can heal minor damage on their own. Can travel places man made vehicles can not go. Can never run out of wolf gas. Anything meaty will make a meal for one. And I imagine they can help hunt for food for you too. Just like we use dogs when hunting now. I love my hounds.

 

 

This is why I think Saga of the Hunter should be available to IC's on TWMs. I can understand not being able to sneak around in TDA, but a Thunderwolf should be able to do it naturally. ^_^

somehow i don't see a wolf that is as big as a rhino able to be sneaking around. if you look at the thunderwolves their preys there is actually little need to sneak since they are the primary predator